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April 11, 2008 at 6:38 am #618547
AnonymousInactiveAnother informative site. And before you discredit them, these same guys were against Kerry too.
April 11, 2008 at 6:41 am #618548
AnonymousInactiveNR, yes I did. Total fluff piece. I’ve been reading about McCain for a long time. There were so many details left out, it’s not even funny. Please consider another source for your info, or at least dig deeper. I honestly don’t believe you’d want this guy in charge.
April 11, 2008 at 6:44 am #618549
AnonymousInactiveOkay, now it’s obvious to me that you haven’t read the wikipedia link about McCain. It’s a shame, really. You shouldn’t be so closed minded. Read it.
He was actually given the chance to be released from the prison because of his dad’s status, and refused since they wouldn’t release the other POWs.
It’s pretty powerful. Once you have read it, in it’s entirety, you will (maybe) understand my lack of understanding for Obama.
April 11, 2008 at 6:45 am #618550
AnonymousInactiveWhat’s the fluff? Which part?
April 11, 2008 at 6:46 am #618551
AnonymousInactiveThat story has actually been disputed as has most of the hero myth.
April 11, 2008 at 6:59 am #618552
AnonymousInactiveUmmm, which part? Did he not go to war? Was he not a POW? Is he not a real person? Who disputed the “hero myth”? Is that what you tell yourself so you feel better about not voting for a true American hero who served his country until he physically could not any longer?
April 11, 2008 at 7:13 am #618553
JanSParticipantHere’s my problem with all of this. Yes, he’s considered a war hero..but..just has Charla said…that was then…what about now? Do we give him a pass on everything just because he was a POW? Does that make up for his ignorance about the economy? about the difference between Shias and Sunnis? about insurgents and Al-Qaida? I think not. He can’t run as a one trick pony. Despite his being considered a “war hero”, he needs to be in touch with what is happening now. We are too easily swayed by the past, and that’s not good..it doens’t make up for the lack of knowledge to help this country out of it’s current problems. And the fact that this man still uses the term “gook” to label Asians is a disgrace. There are many terms that he could use to describe his captors…that’s not one of them…and we, as Americans, need to call him on it, despite his history.
And snide remarks about Obama and Jeremiah Wright doens’t cut it…they are of two different generations. Repubs were entirely happy with making Geo. Bush prez…and look how he avoided military service…please lets not go there. Barack Obama never said G*ddamn America…don’t put those words in his mouth. Just an opinion here…
April 11, 2008 at 7:20 am #618554
AnonymousInactiveTesty aren’t we. Other POW’s dispute it. Vietnam Veterans dispute it. You know, the people who were there. Have you read any of the stuff from other men who have served with him? Some of the stories regarding all the other planes he lost. The transfer after his stupidity cost lives. What his classmates and colleagues have said about him? How he really got into school. Do you think anyone but the son and grandson of 4star generals could rank 894th out of 899 and still get jets.
I truly can’t believe the only source you’re willing to listen to is wiki, where any one who wants, can write whatever they want. Please, please, read more. Unless you’re afraid to:)
More sources:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/ (US veterans dispatch)
April 11, 2008 at 7:38 am #618555
JanSParticipanthttp://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/13248
interesting site…lots of things to read on the menu on the right side, going in all sorts of directions…
April 11, 2008 at 4:27 pm #618556
JoBParticipantNow JT.. i wouldn’t be so hard on wikipedia.. they are arguably one of the most policed sites on the internet…
a click on the second tab at the top of many entries takes you behind the scenes for what is and isn’t posted on the site and why.
New Resident
the plus about wikipedia is that they weed about anything that can’t be substantiated in the written record… for everyone…
so.. if you want to know what the actual written record is and what the sources for that record are.. they are a great place to compare the written records of all candidates…
However, we know that all of us are more than the sum of our written record… and sometimes less than that sum when a string of unfounded investigations still has to be mentioned because it is part of the record…
At the bottom of Wikipedia is a list of resources for the postings….
If you start following those, you will often find more to the story than is reported in Wikipedia… and more important.. those links will lead you to links that eventually will give pretty much the whole story.
It is far too easy for any of us to read only far enough to validate what we wanted to believe and not dig deeper to ask ourselves if our beliefs are founded on accurate information…
i would love to see an area on wikipedia that would take you to links for all viewpoints on any controversy… sometimes it’s hard to find the right combination of words and/or phrases that take you to the information you need without going through multiple links…
April 11, 2008 at 4:58 pm #618557
AnonymousInactiveI love wiki and use it all the time. The problem I have, is you can pick and chose sources to include. The things written were true in the sense that they came from published materials, however several *facts* came from John McCain’s own books and writings. Many people who served with him, went to school with him, and work with him, dispute his version of the truth. If their stories are not included, is the article still accurate?
I read an article about the person who translated the Vietnamese interrogations. He said McCain was never given the offer to go home before other POW’s. Never given an offer to go free at all, let alone first. His account is that it is a completely fabricated story.
Other POW’s say they never saw McCain the entire time. McCain says he was in solitary. There are reports that he was actually being well taken care of in the Vietnamese officers quarters.
Veterans state he has fought returning to look for POW’s at every turn. Why? And why are all the people you would assume to be supporting him the most, actually speaking out against him the most? Shouldn’t we give credit to those who know him?
I think the wiki article chose information that paints him in the best possible light. Which is fine, but that is not the end of the story as NR would have it.
April 11, 2008 at 5:02 pm #618558
AnonymousInactiveThere is always two sides to EVERY story. I’m pretty sure that a fellow POW just wrote a book in which he not only substantiates McCain’s heroics but also goes on to praise the man McCain is. I will see if I can find it.
JT – I can tell you missed me!!! Lol
April 11, 2008 at 5:04 pm #618559
AnonymousInactiveI did. I really did :)
April 11, 2008 at 5:10 pm #618560
AnonymousInactiveHonestly, if you follow the reference numbers, and read the sources, most of them were not written by McCain. Obviously, if they all referred to books written by McCain, it would be a difficult argument. There are always going to be be naysayers, it’s up to us to dig through it all and find the truth (as JoB says).
April 11, 2008 at 5:15 pm #618561
AnonymousInactiveNR, you are making me crazy. That is what I said last night over and over. READ MORE.
April 11, 2008 at 5:23 pm #618562
charlabobParticipant>>>There is always two sides to EVERY story.
If only it were that simple :-) But not quite, NR — there are many sides to every story.
In this case, not a semantic difference — the cause of so much unproductive debate on almost every issue is the idea that there are ONLY two sides. We wind up with “is too!” “is not!” “is too” “is not” … etc.
OTOH, knowing there are many sides does lead to inner turmoil and heads exploding and those are only mine.
April 11, 2008 at 5:27 pm #618563
AnonymousInactiveIs too!
April 11, 2008 at 5:29 pm #618564
AnonymousInactiveAnd I say to you, JT, READ MORE! And don’t just read what you want to, read everything! I will do the same.
April 11, 2008 at 5:29 pm #618565
charlabobParticipant>>>goes on to praise the man McCain is.
Which man would that be? The one who ran to the right in the primaries? The one who’s veering back now to capture centrists and undecideds? The one who opposed torture because it’s unproductive? The one who now favors torture? The one who, correctly imnho, ….spoke eloquently against what Falwell represents? The one who spoke at the commencement ceremony at Liberty U (Falwell’s college) … I think you get my drift — and drift is certainly the operative word here.
The only thing more outrageous than voting for McCain is nominating him in the first place.
The repugs had a number of reasonable potential candidates, as did the dems. For whatever reason those on the repug side never even bothered to run — and those on the dem side didn’t make it to the end.
That doesn’t mean I’m any less enthusiastic about Obama — it just means that I’d be even more enthusiastic about a few of the ones that got away.
April 11, 2008 at 5:30 pm #618566
JoBParticipantNew Resident
I went back to the wikipedia posting on McCain…
and JT is right… the sources for McCain’s account of being shot down and held as a POW are the interviews he was allowed while a prisoner, his own account as reported in his own writing, the press stories based mainly on his accounts and the 5 books written by the reporter who became his unofficial (or official? that isn’t clear) biographer.. based on McCain’s accounts.
There are limited verifications from fellow officers of limited parts of his story and Harriman said that he had corroborated the story of McCain’s offer for early release from a conversation with a Vietnamese source… )i think after McCain was already telling the story)… but i am not sure about that. And i don’t know if there was a relationship between Harriman and McCain’s father… and that would be useful to know when evaluating his report.
So, what we have is an account based mainly upon his own testimony… that doesn’t make it right or wrong.. it just makes it biased.
And we may never learn the entire story because the news media has bought the rebel maverick war hero story hook line and sinker and have made it their own to sell…
that can be referenced in numerous posts years ago… so is not part of the current campaign to discredit McCain at all.
It’s funny, there have been comments about the disparity between the press’s blind devotion to John McCain for some time… and it seems the press and by implication the public just shrugs it off. This is probably due to the same reasoning that would prevent President Bush from actually being impeached and prosecuted … nobody wants to admit they were conned.
JT
I don’t think that Wikipedia chose info that paints him in the best light so much as that was the preponderance of material that was available… and that material all cross referenced itself.
I read the McCain Posting in it’s entirety and was going to create a “getting to know you” sketch of John McCain based entirely on his Wikepedia entry that shows an entirely different man than NewResident sees in that piece when i realized i had exceeded a full page and hadn’t even entered his political career… LOL
Then i asked myself.. self.. why are you doing this?
Democrats on the site will be glad to know that i saved what i had already clipped and will probably present it and more in pieces later this year ;->
But for now, it is a good reminder that all opinion pieces are written from a point of view…
a piece can be perfectly factual and still not the entire story…
the facts you choose to reveal depend a lot on the opinion you wish to present.
You can call it spin… (presenting the other side is called “Hillary apologists” by the Obama supporters) …
but the truth is that all of us have assumptions that corrupt the way we interact with any information…
and that is especially true with political information.
April 11, 2008 at 5:31 pm #618567
charlabobParticipantIs Not!
(soon to be edited in my previous post because what I said, eloquent as it was, made no blipping sense) :-)
April 14, 2008 at 10:24 pm #618568
AnonymousInactiveIt’s been suggested that McCain suffers from PTSD. Uncontrolled bursts of anger being just one of the symptoms. From a psychological standpoint, wouldn’t a mental and physical evaluation be appropriate to release? From what I understand these records are sealed.
And before any one jumps on me, this is a serious question, not bashing of any sort. The position of President will be extremely stressful and likely to exacerbate any disorder. Do we know if he’s been successfully treated for problems resulting from his POW status?
I think out of respect, most people would be afraid to broach the topic. I still think it needs answering.
April 14, 2008 at 10:32 pm #618569
AnonymousInactiveJT – I think that you have a valid concern. I think all candidates should have psychological testing and it should be public.
We were just discussing this over the weekend and my guy has telling me that McCain was evaluated after he returned from the war and he was tested as incredibly sane. My guy said, in the report, the Doctor even went on to say that McCain was more sane than the Doctor himself. However, I cannot find a report, so I can’t give a link to verify this. I will try to get more info tonight.
But, it is a valid request. One that should be released for ALL candidates.
April 14, 2008 at 10:36 pm #618570
AnonymousInactiveI agree. Definitely a job that requires stability. I would like to know a source if you find it, because I swear I read recently that he wouldn’t release his medical file.
Also, especially with matters of the mind, effects of trauma can show up much later. I think a current evaluation would be optimal.
April 14, 2008 at 10:37 pm #618571
AnonymousInactiveYeah. I saw that too. I will try to get more info.
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