McCain or Obama?

[JoB]

i gave a nod to our underrepresented republicans by putting McCain first in this new thread i have started per Ken’s suggestion.. as some of the others are overly long…

So to the republicans who lurk here… i hope you will accept my honest invitation to wade in on this important issue. I refuse to believe that conscientious republicans … who are concerned with the erosion of the constitution and with any party manipulating elections … no longer exist.

Whether we choose to vote for McCain for for Obama, we all have a huge stake in making sure these are fair and free elections.. and that our press at least acknowledges sources when they choose to broadcast misinformation.

Without the guarantee of honest elections and an honest press, we may as well all give up the pretense of political parties.. because our participation means little. it doesn’t matter if you are democrats or republicans if there is no true democracy.

A friend of mine stated his worry a couple of weeks ago that Obama would overwhelmingly win the popular election but lose the electoral vote. At the time, i acknowledged his concern.. but didn’t think quite so much about it.

The latest news of systematic purges of democratic voters in key swing states makes that worry more relevant.

As does the fact that major news networks so far don’t seem to believe that this is news….

This at least should be a starting point for real discussion about what our elections mean and what actual change would benefit the majority of voters.

I think we have let the press carry this discussion into the mindless spouting of slogans far too long.

let’s take back our elections.

Disclosure: I am a registered democrat and an Obama supporter in this election. But more than that, I am an American who values both democracy and the constitution upon which it was founded.

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[JoB]

on the go Barak thread, New resident posted:

“The point of the matter is, I can see how easy it is to make that argument that the rich only want to get richer, however, that is a flawed argument. That is a result of not looking deeper into the effects of Obama’s tax plan. Taking it for face value.

Offering more benefits to those who make a lower income is not the answer. That is detrimental to our economy and our country, IMO.

If you believe that your taxes will not go up if Obama is elected, I’m afraid you’ll be mistaken (I’m not saying you will be, I’m saying that I believe you will be). For Heaven’s sake, he still claims to not even have a plan for Iraq. Who really knows what he’ll do, he hardly has a history that could give people some indication of what to expect.

The scariest part of all is that, simply because he is far left and an eloquent speaker (some claim), that is enough for them. “

New resident, are you aware that under our current tax plan, middle class wage earners are penalized for earning more? it’s called the alternative minimum tax and is a problem that will probably catch us this year… and will greatly increase our tax burden.

Yet, in the last few years, we have paid more in real taxes (dollars) than friends of ours who are significantly more wealthy than we are.

And before you go there.. their businesses do not employ anyone.. so their tax breaks do not contribute to employment in any way… nor do they sell real goods.. so their businesses don’t contribute to manufacturing… or to the economy in anything other than the most tangential way. (They provide personal services for the very wealthy.)

Yet, they pay a far lower percentage of their income in taxes than we do.. so much that although their income more than tripled ours, they paid less in real dollars than we did.

I am not sure what part of restoring the tax rates to what they paid before the Bush tax cuts is detrimental to the American economy…

but i am sure you will be able to find an economist somewhere who justifies it by measuring the economy in terms of corporate profit.

Restoring equitable tax rates for the rich is not raising taxes… it is ending huge tax breaks for a very small segment of the population.

That those tax breaks contribute to the overall economy is the real flawed argument.

You are right that we don’t know what Obama will do in Iraq… that will depend a great deal on what can be done.

At least he has demonstrated that he has a grasp of the basic political issues… while McCain still seems to be struggling to remember who borders Iraq, let alone showing a grasp of the basic political situation there.

I would rather have the uncertaintiy of someone who understands the complexity of the situation than the certainty of someone who is fixated on only one outcome.. winning.. at any and all costs.

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[JanS]

thanks for starting this…I hope some of the Republican lurkers out there join the dialogue. I’, too, am concerned about the purging of voter registration rolls in certain states. Whether you’re Dem or Repub, one should find this reprehensible. The fact that it’s mostly black registrants makes it even more suspect.

Slogans can be spouted until the cows come home..I don’t listen.And I don’t think it makes me un-patriotic to question the motives of the ones purging these lists.

Let’s have a real discussion, and not arguments just for arguments sake :) We can all benefit from this.

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[JanS]

I should say…I didn’t want to make it sound like this thread is just about one issue. It can be about many. We need to dialog about all of them..because I ultimately feel that we all care about the direction of this country.

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[JenV]

with all due respect, JanS and JoB- what is the point? No one is going to change anyone’s mind when we have a political discussion. This will all end up in another huge fight and nothing will have been gained.

sigh.

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[JanS]

unfortunately, that happens on a forum like this. But if we all just stop talking, what would be accomplished? The point of this thread is to negate the arguing, and hopefully exchange ideas…yes, I’m a pollyanna…I think it can still be done. As I said, hopefully..not arguing just for the sake of arguing (that “I have to be right, I AM right” thing, just to make another person look bad – it’s personal, and it sends many people away.

Then, again, maybe I should just go back in my hole :)

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[JoB]

JenV…

earlier today New Resident posted an email that was going around that was totally bogus info.. and that fact was pointed out by JT (i think)…

if just one person read that thread and realized that the email they received and believed was bogus, it made a difference.

My brother is about as staunch a republican as they come, but he is not so excited to see his party purging voter rolls across the country to influence elections.. nor is he pleased to learn that the whistle blower statutes that he counted on to keep the news media honest were gutted 4 years ago… nor was he pleased to learn that Bush has basically circumvented law on several issues he cares about.. including environmental protection.. by changing govt policy to directly contradict law.

he would not have known about any of that without discussions like the ones we have here.. and to be honest, the ones we have here are a lot less contentious than what he and i engage in…

He is a republican, but he has a basic respect for the law that he chose to spend his life defending.

I think he is badly deluded politically, but i admire his integrity and his willingness to challenge what has been done wrong in the name of his party.

I don’t think he is the only republican who has second thoughts about many of the current policies… especially once they become aware of what is actually happening.

when the news media isn’t doing the job of alerting the public.. discussions like this become vital to any real democracy.

regardless of who wins this election, most Americans can agree that there are some things that have to change.

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[JoB]

JenV..

if i didn’t believe that it was possible to make a difference through discussion.. i would have to take the leave it part of…

my country.. “love it or leave it” ..

because without change… this country is rapidly becoming someplace i don’t want to live.

i choose to believe it is possible for people to actually speak.. and together.. through collaboration.. affect change.

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[Anonymous]

I completely agree that a discussion is possible.

In fact, regarding the email I posted earlier, JT did post a link to snopes (a web site that dis-proves urban legends) and from there I did more research. We then had discussions regarding the different tax proposals and I learned a few things.

If everyone can remember to be respectful (myself included), an interesting dialogue could come of it. I’m hoping to anyways.

The only down side I fear with this thread is that no other Republicans will participate. I know there may be some who lurk, but I can’t carry the conservative viewpoints all on my own. Please help if you can!!

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[JoB]

NewResident..

there are several republican viewpoints.. just as there are several democratic viewpoints.

it would be good to hear from more of them.

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[Anonymous]

It also would be beneficial if not every single, little thing someone posts has to be corrected.

This will also help to attract more lurkers.

Regarding Obama’s plans for the war, I wouldn’t be so sure that he isn’t interested in winning at any cost:

“…he pledges to shift two U.S. combat brigades, 10,000 troops, out of Iraq and into Afghanistan, raising American forces in that country from 33,000 to 43,000.

Barack is recommending the same course LBJ took after the death of JFK. Johnson bombed North Vietnam in 1964, landed Marines in 1965 and built U.S. forces from 16,000 advisers on Nov. 22, 1963, to 525,000 troops in January of 1969.

Gradual escalation, which is exactly what Barack is recommending.

Afghanistan, in and of itself, is of no strategic importance, if it is not a base camp for al-Qaida. Loss of Pakistan to Islamism, however, a nation of 170 million Muslims with atomic bombs, would be a calamity for the Near East and United States.”

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[Erik]

Afghanistan, in and of itself, is of no strategic importance…yes, but Unocal would still like to get that pipeline built.

Muslims with atomic bombs, why would this be a calamity?

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[JoB]

NewResident…

To the best of our current knowledge Al-Qaida is crossing the border into Pakistan for refuge.. but operates largely in Afghanistan.

Obama or McCain. there will be more troops moving into Afghanistan… at the request of our military. US casualties there have escalated.

and what that has to do with the loss of Pakistan to islam is beyond my comprehension…

Is the current rhetoric that more troops in Afghanistan will increase muslim extremism there?

Gosh.. i wish they had figured that out before they invaded Iraq.

The reason Al-qaida has refuge along the Pakistan border has little to do with islam and a great deal to do with sheiks who consider those areas their own personal fiefdoms and who profit greatly from sheltering Al-Qaida… and a central government in Pakistan that is not strong enough to deal effectively with them..

I fail to see how Obama’s plan follows the course LBJ took in VietNam… though i am certain you must have read that somewhere.. it would be helpful to have the link…

I may be a bit fuzzy headed in my increasing senility ;) but i think it was the french who had a long term military commitment in Viet Nam prior to LBJs “escalation” …

Someone better versed in the war in VietNam could explain this better to you…

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[Anonymous]

“LBJ never thought through to the end game: how to break Hanoi, withdraw and leave a South peaceful, prosperous and pro-American.

Has Barack thought his way through to how this war ends in victory and we withdraw all U.S. ground troops from Afghanistan?”

I did read it, JoB. I thought this opinion interesting and that I would share it. I can’t link you to it because I have trouble with the posts showing up.

The loss of Pakistan to Islamism would be the calamity, not Muslims with atomic bombs. At least that is the way the article reads.

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[Anonymous]

BTW, I realize what McCain’s Iraq plan is (he already has it figured out) and it is aligned with what Obama is proposing (this week).

What I find interesting is that I thought that the fact that he had a DIFFERENT plan from that of the Republican candidate was what everyone liked about him.

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[JanS]

so…I don’t quite understand that quote “Loss of Pakistan to Islamism, however, a nation of 170 million Muslims with atomic bombs, would be a calamity for the Near East and United States.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Pakistan

Christianity is to Islamism what a Christian is to a Muslim.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/august05/islam9.html

Pakistan is 97% Muslim, basically most of it….the religion they practice is Islam…so, as Erik asked..”Where’s the calamity?”

Am I being dense? Does that sentence make sense to anyone else? or…is it as non-sensical as I think it is?

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[JanS]

NR…as I see it, neither plan is going to be written in stone before they take office. Things change, sometimes on a daily basis…I think I may have posted somewhere else that compromise is not necessarily a bad thing, and I believe that whoever gets elected will probably have to veer a little from some of the things that they’re saying now, in order to make the best decisions.

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[JanS]

and just to be clear…there have been Muslims practicing Islam from the beginning of time just about. Not every Muslim who practices Islam is a terrorist. Those are the people to worry about…the one’s who interpret their religion in a more violent way. Islam is in actuality a very peaceful religion.

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[JoB]

NewResident..

if you can’t link the article. then simply tell us where to find it.

i would love to read an article that equates Obama’s plan… and McCain’s current plan to LBJ.. and his lack of an end game in Viet Nam.

wait.. this lack of an end game thing sort of makes me think of the war in Iraq…. Jo scratches her head…. yup, no end game:(

now i am even more curious about this article. i’d love to know what they had to say about that. something so glaringly obvious, they must have mentioned it.

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[JenV]

McCain (already has it figured out) ((will flip flop his position next week)) (((will flip it again the following week)))

yep. I am in the discussion. and let me tell you, I did not change any minds with that. the nearest repug will go running for Faux News for their soundbite, while the nearest Dem will go running to the Daily Kos for theirs. Oh well. it’s fun red-baiting.

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[Anonymous]

I think NR is quoting Pat Buchanan in a column titled “Obama’s War” From what I can tell, Pat doesn’t source any of his OPINIONS.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan92.html

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[JanS]

JT…wonder if the esteemed Mr. Buchanan sat down with Mr. Bush lo, those many years ago, and asked him those very same questions on the eve of invading Iraq….hmmm..

Oh, does he even have a source besides his own head? hehe…just a thought…

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[JanS]

yeah, sorry, I don’t care much for the man…could have left that last line out :)

I hear the hole calling…

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[JoB]

JenV…

i confess.. i don’t read the daily KOS.. or Huffington post.. or… unless sent there by someone who thinks there is something i should read.

i got tired of Amy Goodman… but i have become addicted to GRIT TV…

mostly these day is am just watching Jon Stewart.. best news out there;>

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[JoB]

JT..

thanks for the link. yup, i think she sourced Pat.

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