How do you measure success?

[Zenguy]

Humans are a visual species. We judge our food first by how it looks, we judge whether or not the road ahead is dangerous based on how it looks and at first we might be attracted to someone based on their looks. The important thing to keep in mind is that we judge things we see largely on past experiences. I try to keep this in mind when little voices pop into my head telling me these things.

Years ago I knew a couple that to look at them appeared to be something out of the Beverly Hill Billies, yet every year they would walk onto a Cadillac lot and buy a brand new car with a wad of bills.

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[villagegreen]

NR – I didn’t saying not making judgements was naive, I said making a judgement (whether it be positive or negative) without knowing the person could be considered naive.

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[villagegreen]

Everyone makes judgements when they look at other people. There’s no way around it. It’s instinctual and as Zenguy said based “largely on past experiences.”

The important thing is to not let these snap judgements cloud our overall view of the person or affect our actions towards the person. Unless you acknowledge that you make judgements when you first look at a person I don’t think you can really confront the issues that you yourself may need to deal with. This can lead to irrational beliefs such as claiming that racism no longer exists (for example).

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[Anonymous]

viallagegreen- Nice tie in to an old point of contention. Especially in a thread where the discussion is solely based on success (how a person lives their life, how they treat others, etc.).

“The important thing is to not let these snap judgements cloud our overall view of the person or affect our actions towards the person.”- villagegreen

In the midst of trying to drudge up negative discussions I’ve been involved in (seemingly), you have hit my point right on the head.

As an example: I’ve witnessed behavior of people who see an individual who appears more successful, more wealthy or more attractive than them self and have negative thoughts or ideas about that person – simply because of what they can see, not based on anything they personally know. Just the opposite holds true. I have witnessed behavior of rash judgments being made about an individual who does NOT appear successful, wealthy or attractive. I think the ability to live your life without judgments or pre-conceived notions is a gift. Unfortunately, I don’t feel a lot of people have that ability. Just my experience.

What you said, Zenguy, about how we, as humans, judge everything based on what it looks like, is dead on. My whole point is that, when it comes to other other people, I would wish prior judgments would not be made rashly. It seems that would promote a more harmonious world.

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[Bayou]

JoB, I don’t think that what I said is brave, I think it just reiterates that “success” is a personal perception. As Zenguy aptly points out, we are a visual species. We certainly can’t determine the sum of someone’s life experiences with a glance but I think our brains can very quickly sum up a host of other visual clues.

I’m not a judgemental person but I am a natural observer. I don’t think that the statement that I made is necessarily crass or wrong, I just think that we measure with the ingredients that we have at hand. When measuring ourselves, we have a lifetime worth of experiences to review but when looking at others we are only reviewing what meets the eye- the physical. We can’t even pretend to know the emotional/spiritual/intellectual well-being of someone else which I think many would equate with the (intangible) success of finding one’s place of belonging in the world.

In simpler terms, I think we all define our own happiness and our own success.

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[JoB]

villagegreen…

i think you make a valid point.. that unless we acknowledge the differences in the way we perceive other people that have nothing to do with who they are.. but a lot to do with what we think they are… we can never move beyond those preconceived prejudices.

And those preconceived prejudices have a lot to do with success… because they directly affect the opportunities we give others.

This is why discirimination exists and why it has such a brutal effect on the lives of those who are discriminated against.

We discriminate against anyone who doesn’t meet our standard for ideal.. the white christian affluent male…

thus, we discriminate against the poor, the mentally ill, anyone of color, those of differing religions, women and the physically disabled.

Every economic statistic available points to the fact that those demographics are consistently less wealthy and less well paid than white christian affluent males.

As someone pointed out on Rachel Maddow a couple of days ago.. there is a huge difference in the way we perceive someone who showers before they go to work and someone who showers after.

those who shower before are perceived to be worth more than those who shower after… because they get their hands and bodies sweaty and dirty working. I wish i could remember who that was because i really liked that illustration.

While financial success is not the only standard of success… and thankfully not the only standard that defines our sense of self, financial success creates the trappings and opportunities that others use to recognize success.

Yes, i think your point is very relevant to this discussion.

though i agree completeley that financial success doesn’t define success, financial security makes everything else that defines success much easier.

It is easier to meet your goals if you have the financial security to allow you to work towards more than survival.. it is easier to raise children if you have the financial security to spend at least some time with then instead of having to work two or three jobs to ensure their survival… it is easier to take an opportunity if the only risk is failure…

there is definately something to be said for having life’s basic needs met.

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[JoB]

Bayou…

i really liked the way you just put that.

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[Zenguy]

And after all, shouldn’t whether or not I am a success be up to me and my family? One person might need to succeed in their own business to feel successful another may feel the need to raise a big family and both of those might not be something that appeals to me at all. Would I then see them as successful? Probably not until I knew them better I am guessing.

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[GenHillOne]

JoB – Leo Gerard, Pres. of United Steelworkers, re: difference between (non-)scrutiny of $700B financial bailout (showers before work) and scrutiny of now(?) $36B auto bailout (showers after work) on Tuesday. It WAS good, I had to look up his name.

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[beachdrivegirl]

You know I think there is one thing that is important (at least to me) in being successful that is not being a victim. I believe that by not being a victim individuals will be able to change there classes easier as well. If you go in with an attitude of defeat (victim) then imo it is more likely you will never succeed.

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[JoB]

Thank you GenHillOne… That was going to take me a while to look up.

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[JoB]

There is a huge difference between being a victim of and considering yourself a victim and adopting the victim mentality.

sometimes the thing that helps you overcome the victim mentality the most is telling your story… because if you can tell your story you have survived.

You can be the victim of many things, including circumstances… even circumstances which permanently limit your options… and still be a success.

it’s pretty hard for someone who considers themselves a success to have a victim mentality.. in fact.. it may be impossible.

But as with all internal success.. that doesn’t mean it will stop others from seeing you as a victim and assuming that you have a victim mentality if you don’t look and sound successful to them.

One thing i think this thread has really pointed out is that success has far more to do with how you feel about yourself and how you feel about how you handle the challenges in your life than it does with how you measure up to others.

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[Anonymous]

“…thus, we discriminate against the poor, the mentally ill, anyone of color, those of differing religions, women and the physically disabled.” – JoB

I believe people discriminate against a much wider range of people than just that, JoB. That is only the fringe.

“there is definately something to be said for having life’s basic needs met” – JoB

Meeting the needs of our individual selves, is success in itself. Meaning, not needing to rely on others, or the Govt., to take care of us, is a measure of success.

Bayou – Your post was brilliant!

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[JoB]

anyone for chocolate ice cream?

i know it’s too late for full tilt but i do have some stashed in the fridge…

and i wonder why i am gaining wieght again:(

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[Anonymous]

Not really on topic, but – Sounds yummy! Where can I meet ya??

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[Anonymous]

Btw, villagegreen, book recommendation: “The End of Racism” by Dinesh D’Souza.

Happy reading! :)

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[Anonymous]

You know, since it seems to be a big enough issue with you that you bring it up about 10 months AFTER that discussion took place.

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[JanS]

I’m really glad I opened this thread, although I think that some have taken this into another realm (which does happen in forums like this). I truly wanted to know about personal success, not Bill Gates’ success…or how others seem, and how you may or may not compare to those others. That’s a different topic.

I truly feel that one has no right to have judgement ever over another. NR…you can’t decide who is a victim and who isn’t except in your eyes, how YOU think they may be a victim. For example, I may need to rely on my gov’t. a bit…but I don’t play the gov’t. game, and sure as hell don’t consider myself a victim.You said ” Meaning, not needing to rely on others, or the Govt., to take care of us, is a measure of success.”So…perception…how you see someone, reflects what you feel perhaps about yourself. I see nothing wrong with having to rely on, lean on, someone else at times, if you truly have to. But, that’s my perseption, which is different that yours. Is one right and one wrong? No…It is what it is for each of us. As individual as what “success” for lack of a better word, means to each of us. But I could never say that you’re not a success because you don’t fit into what I believe. We’re just different..

BDG..changing classes by not thinking of yourself a victim…hmmm…I’m not sure how I feel about that.(I kinda like the class I’m in – some might even say it’s a class by itself – lol. I suppose I don’t want to move to the “uppercrust” – I am who I am no matter where I am in the scheme of things. Going up in “class” doesn’t make one a better person) A victim of what? of yourself? of society? of the downtrend in economy? in the fact that maybe someone lost their home to foreclosure because of the banking debacle? None of that has anything to do with “success”, but that’s my opinion. It’s a matter of circumstances. None of us has a right to judge someone, or look down at someone because circumstances made them a “victim” of something they couldn’t control. They may very well be extremely happy in their lives, in spite of. Who’s to say? I think of people in So. Cal who have lost their homes in those terrible fires, or tornado victims whose homes have been demolished. They are victims of something…and may even need the gov’t.’s help, but..time and time again, you see them looking things over, and being happy that they still have life, and each other. Yes, they’re victims, and need to reach out and rely on others…maybe for a little bit maybe for a long time…but, their measure of success is theirs. What you may feel about them is irrelevant, because it’s YOUR perception.

“Success”…”happiness”…it means so many different things to each of us. I wanted to know how YOU feel about YOURS…not how you might feel in general about others, and their mentality, which could be like yours…or not.

Thanks for contributing to this…I really am interested in the topic…we are such a diverse community…

chocolate ice cream, huh, Jo?…sounds really, really good to me right about now…

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[JanS]

I’ve always felt that money cannot buy happiness…but you all have to agree, it certainly makes things a bit easier along the way.

Another reading recommendation “The Four Agreements – A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom” by Don Miguel Ruiz…a small book, an easy read, but..a lot to absorb…

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[TammiWS]

Good posts JanS – thanks for describing what I couldnt quite articulate myself!

So much of this is just words…..

I think the word ‘victim’ brings up all sorts of things to people and causes all sorts of judgements. I tend to only think of or use that word in relation to a crime.

Otherwise I think of people as just down on their luck, had an unforseen catastrophe occur (fire, tornado or even loss of a job unexpectedly), got the short end of the stick as to whom their parents might be (i.e. some kids at Treehouse could be called “victims” or more importantly ‘survivors’). Calling it anything else to me means making a ‘judgement’ on someone and it’s not my place to do so if I’ve never walked in their shoes.

Heck with the unemployment stats yesterday many of those folks are now going to rely on someone or the govt via unemployment benefits perhaps for help – I see nothing wrong with that. I have a good job, make a good salary, have a mortgage and savings in the bank but if I lost my job and it took 6-9 months to get another one, I’d be in need of help from family or have to rely on unemployment, or try to sell my house in this market. But calling myself a victim doesnt spring to mind. Calling myself ‘screwed’ does! :)

Heck NR your airline could merge at some point and layoffs occur. You might even need to take unemployment for a period of time – I doubt anyone would fault you for doing that even if it’s relying on the govt.

As for money-happiness – money in my view gives you choice. Out of college, paying many loans, credit debt, in a small 500 sqft apt. with a boyfriend from outside the country who was looking for work caused me immense amounts of stress and anxiety – all because we were strapped financially. We turned in 14 W2 forms that year. Ugh….

I swore once all bills were paid I would never have ongoing debt again (outside of a mortgage) because the stress was too much and too distracting to allow me to focus on other things in life. I felt our choices were limited.

Finally got to that point 10 years ago (post divorce from above BF!) and felt “success” – to not be strapped to debt – and therefore have more choice – but now with todays economy, if my job goes….’success’ is fleeting! ha…

Anyway, my 2cents. Good topic!

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[JoB]

Sorry ladies.. i had my mexican chocolate ice cream by the light of the open freezer..a bite at a time . I would try to act as though i am ashamed of myself… but the 12 year old who peers out from these slightly drooping eyelids was ecstatic…

I can highly recommend stashing your own secret pleasure for those nights when nothing else will do. Full tilt will be open soon:)

TammiWs…

you bring up a great point… success if measured financially… is fleeting.

Those who were nearing the top of the pile a couple of months ago due to speculation have had a wild ride down to the middle.. or to the bottom if they borrowed too much to finance their speculation.. there are going to be a lot of really great used toys for sale at incredible deals very soon.

Most, if not all of those who engaged in that kind of speculation will have the resources of family to rely on to cushion them from their fall… but it will still be a rude awakening.

what is it they say.. self made millionaire to playboy to bum in three generations?

Just as in the great depression, there will be some who have enough money to profit from the misfortune of others ..

but most of us are in the same boat.. the speculation that took down those who were playing fast and loose with their own money also took down our retirement accounts and our housing values… and our job security.

more than one of us who post… highly successful individuals by any measurement of that term… valuable employees… have already found themselves unemployed.

the effect of a dwindling base of consumers will hit all areas of our retail sector … further decreasing the base of consumers. Many who thought their jobs and futures secure may find that the saving they thought substantial.. are inadequate in this economy.

unfortunately, financial success is rarely a product of an single individual’s own effort.. it is too dependent upon the health of the economy… whether you are a business owner or an employee.

retail sales and service currently produces roughly 2/3 of the national GDP… No matter how you look at it.. this is going to hurt… even those who thought themselves well positioned for any possible economic downturn.

and as the elderly have already learned before us, it doesn’t take that much to wipe out a lifetime of savings… a single medical catastrophe can do it in a heartbeat.

Some of us learn that lesson early… some learn it late.. and some are lucky enough to never learn it.

I personally think those of us who learned that lesson early are lucky. When you aren’t in the game that everyone tells you life chose for you.. you have the opportunity to look around and decide what game you want to play.

We are all better at the game of life when when we get to design the standards and rules for the game that measures our personal success.

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