How do you measure success?

[beachdrivegirl]

But they can still be successful to themselves.

I dont think gangs are succesful; but I am willing to bet that certain gang members consider themselves very succesful.

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[Anonymous]

Thank you, BDG, I enjoyed your definition of success as well.

It’s such an interesting thought that Jan presented. Thank you, Jan. I find it so interesting because there is no right or wrong answer. For each person, success means different things.

I can definitely relate to Jan’s definition of success in regard to her daughter, as I also have a daughter. However, for others, that wouldn’t be relevant. Btw, Jan, the way you speak of your daughter informs us that you HAVE achieved your personal success in that department. :)

What one person believes measures success (such as money, fame, having THINGS), may not be what another person measures success by.

And villagegreen brings up another interesting question: Do you measure your own success by how you personally feel, or by how others perceive you?

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[Cait]

I definitely relate my success only to myself. I rate it by “Am I doing my very best every day at everything I try. Do I try new things though I don’t think I can? Do I do everything to the best of my ability (not necessarily what other people expect but what I know I can honestly expect of myself.” And getting out of every day with my self respect, integrity and self esteem intact? That’s a damn fine day and a successful one at that :)

Not having kiddos, I wouldn’t know about the kids thing. I’ll have to ask my mama. :)

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[JoB]

villagegreen…

i think there are some self aware people who still choose to hurt other people and the planet.

self awareness is no guarantee of goodness. i wish it was. I have met some very self aware people who were well aware of their own personal malice and got great satisfaction and felt successful because they were good at it.

And as much as it pains me, i would have to agree that they are a success. They are very clearly fulfilling their own personal intention.

I am glad to report that my experience indicates that people who derive their sense of success from malice are few in number. It only looks like there are more of them because they tend to attract others who are not self aware and bend them to their will… but those who are fully self aware and full of malice are rare.

and i don’t see that wealth.. having it or not having it.. is any great indicator of self awareness… though the odds would weigh that the more wealth (especially if it is inherited wealth) the less self awareness because there is less chance that the person has ever had to focus on anything other than themselves and what they consider their own… and it is much harder to build self awareness if you are not really aware that the desires of others are not the same as yours. That said, i have also known some incredibly wealthy, self aware, caring people who were a great success in every sense of the word.

and you are right.. ignorance is bliss.. or near bliss.. for a lot of people who are not the least bit self aware and who wouldn’t strive to be if they were aware of the concept.

I join Zenguy in hoping that at some point, no matter how late it is, they become self aware if only for a fleeting moment before death. I am not as convinced as he is that it happens for most… but i am hopeful. It didn’t happen for my mom even though i would have wished that for her more than anything.

i think there are a lot of different ways to view happiness.

Some are happy merely experiencing beauty.. others are not happy unless they own that beauty and still others are not happy unless they own the beauty and can control who else gets to experience it.

i suspect that same table could be used for just about any measure of happiness…

i think happiness is definately the result of success… but i am not so convinced that happiness by itself can measure success.

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[JoB]

cait..

i couldnt agree with you more…

if you measure your success by how others percieve you, you will never be successful because there will always be someone who thinks you have not done enough.

if you don’t set your own standards for success.. even if you satisfy others you will feel you are merely tricking them…

you will never be able to satisfy your largest critic.. yourself.. because you can never meet a standard that has no upper limits.. no matter what you are measuring. you would always be unsuccessful because there could always be more…

more.. more.. more..

the battlecry of acquisition.

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[JoB]

my immediate arbiter of success is the contentment of my puppies and they aren’t so content because it is nice outside and i am typing inside.

fortunately, meeting their demands is consistent with my personal measurements for success… so i think a ride and walk are in my immediate future:)

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[beachdrivegirl]

But again, goodness is just your own perception. What is good to me, might not be good to another or it could just be misinterpeted words since as Zenguy did say words are only 7% of communication.

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[JoB]

sorry about the double post.. i think the listserve is having a difficult time keeping up with the flying posts on this one:)

a good topic.

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[JenV]

I am a good person. I don’t lie, cheat or steal. I follow all the rules. I give what I can even though I barely have enough for me. Yet, my life is shite. And I see people who are amoral, grasping bastards – and they are happy. So, bunk to that argument.

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[Zenguy]

Money and fame for that matter, simply magnify the feelings that someone already has imo. We need only look at Hollywood to test that theory.

Why is it that some stars seem so grounded and normal, while others crash and burn? I suspect that the grounded ones already were grounded or were fortunate enough to have people around them to help find that feeling within. While the crash and burns probably would have had the same fate but now had the resources to do it faster and in front of cameras.

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[Bayou]

I think all too often it’s true that we are own worst critics. Do we measure ourselves against the same standard of success that we measure others? Doubtful.

Perhaps because within ourselves we have the opportunity to analyze all of our collective experiences and sum them up into the categories of success or epic FAIL. *Personally*, I measure my own success by the goals that I have achieved, the struggles I’ve overcome and the beautiful people that have made each of those journeys something special.

Looking outward, I might see a well dressed wo/man getting into an expensive car with butt warming seats and think, “Wow, they are successful!” I might assume from observation that they achieved a high profile job, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they are happy but it would *appear* that they reached their own goals.

So, maybe butt warming seats aren’t a high priority for me but for someone else, they could be the luxury that defines their own success.

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[Anonymous]

In response to the idea that self-awareness equates to success and people with money are more unlikely to have the ability to self-evaluate, I have to pose a question:

Have you considered that most people who DO have money (or could be considered well off), have not always been that way?

I think it’s entirely possible that BECAUSE certain people are capable of self-evaluation and in tune with others needs, they are more likely to become successful (in this instance, success = money).

I think it’s easy to look at an individual who we consider more successful than ourselves and assume that they are lucky, or have had an easy life, or everything has been handed to them. In my experience, the most well-off people I know got their through hard work and perseverance, coming from nothing. In effect, making them even the more happy!

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[Cait]

That’s assuming that money or “being well off” has anything to do with success, which I don’t believe. I have my own beliefs as far as how people who make exorbitant amounts of money get it, but I digress a bit. I prefer not to equate the two things at all because some of the most successful individuals I know (in my opinion) don’t have money and never have.

I see where you were coming from on that one NR, but my poor self is just hedgey at anything that equates money to success. Though most of the time those two things are related, I don’t think they are related in the benevolent ways we would like to think a lot of the time. Luck and hard work do account for a great many rich people (those lucky folk!), but I think the vast majority probably don’t get it that way.

Oo! Oo! I have an exercise – I know these people exist so I’d like to find some of everyone else’s examples. People who are successful yet poor and then of course people who are rich, yet unsuccessful. (I will go ahead and insert “morally upstanding and hard working” for “successful” because this is my topic jack and my view :])

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[Anonymous]

Cait – I totally agree. I do not equate money to success (I was only using that measurement as an example in response to another post that defined success as self-evaluation).

However, some people do. Some people even have more than enough money and still don’t consider themselves successful (I knew someone like that once).

But it’s definitely true that “success” is different for everyone. As I said before, at the end of the day, it’s not what you have, but WHO you are, WHAT you’ve done and HOW you feel.

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[Cait]

I love when we’re on the same page NR. :) Definitely agreed. I figured out something interesting just now, NR. With most people, you may disagree with them and then when you dig deep down you can always find common ground. I think a lot of the time we’re on common ground to begin with and then when we both dig down enough, THAT’S where we differ. I find that kinda fascinating… For good or for ill it keeps me on my toes :)

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[ellenater]

rum balls.

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[Anonymous]

Lol, Cait! To me, you and I finding common ground is success! :)

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[Kayleigh2]

Actually, I’ve read research that says that *most* people who are financially well-off were born into it–that the biggest predictor of our social class is our parents’ social class. I’ve also read research that says that CEOs are more likely to be sociopaths than the general population is. Which I totally believe–I have seen astonishingly narcissistic and selfish behavior in the workplace. Most workplaces seem to reward it.

(My ex is not a sociopath; he’s a great guy. He’s as happy as anybody else and I just happen to be more successful than he is at some things.) :-)

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[beachdrivegirl]

We can always find some sort of research to support something we want to *see*.

In fact, by asking google: “Do most the rich inherit their money or do they work for it?” I got the result that only 6% of the wealthy (those with over $500,000 to invest) received their wealth through inheritance alone. Because most individuals are workers and have their money work for them as well as they work themselves. I havent looked into the sociopath comment but I’ll let you know when I do. IMO, 6% would not be considered most since it is in the minority and all.

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[Kayleigh2]

Where did I say they inherited their wealth, BDG? I said that your parents’ social class is the biggest predictor of your social class. Do you understand basic psychological and social factors, or do I need to spell them out for you?

Happy to cite some research for you if you like.

(by the way, I see through the reindeer games, and I’m nowhere near as forgiving as Jo.)

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[beachdrivegirl]

“Actually, I’ve read research that says that *most* people who are financially well-off were born into it–“. I am sorry I had just assumed that you were talking about this individuals inheritating wealth. What would I need to be asking for your forgivenss for? I didnt know questioning ones position wasnt allowed, but then again I should have knwon better. I’ll look forward to the research, I have been short on a reading list these days.

Now lets get back to the topic @ hand about success; unless you do believe that money = success?

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[Kayleigh2]

Inheritance is what happens when someone dies and you are handed a large sum of money, right?

Even if we inherit nothing, we’re all born into one social class or another.

For reading material to accompany your beer boot:

http://www.ncsociology.org/sociationtoday/v21/merit.htm

“For a while, we run alongside our parents as the baton is passed, and then we take off on our own. In this relay race, those born into great wealth start far ahead of those born to poor parents, who have a huge deficit to overcome if they are to catch up. Indeed, of all the factors that we might consider, where we start out in life has the greatest effect on where we end up. In the race to get ahead, the effects of inheritance come first and merit second, not the other way around.”

http://www.pewtrusts.org/our_work_report_detail.aspx?id=39784&category=428

http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2007/11/26/3370990.html

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[JoB]

bayou…

i have but warming seats.. but they are disconnected and not likely to be connected again in the lifetime of this car…

the car was obviously stolen before i bought it and the wiring torn out… i have no idea what it would cost to get them reconnected.

whatever it is, it would be too much…

so.. does that make me a success or a failure?

i think i have my priorities straight but i can’t quite bring myself to give up the comfort of those seats that no longer warm my backside… even for better gas mileage.

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[JoB]

Kayleigh2..

i think the social class you were born into is probably the largest indicator of whether you will or won’t be financially successful.

this one is a no brainer..

if you are born into a higher social class you are more likely to go to college.. more likely to pursue advanced degrees… more likely to be able to get into a top ten school where you are more likely to make the kind of connections that will grease your working life with opportunities … … you and your extended family are more likely to have connections that help you get a better job…

you just plain get a head start on everyone else and that head start multiplies with every opportunity.

and that doesn’t even address issues of security, nutrition, clothing, tutoring, availability of books in the home, early childhood education…

it’s christmas.. i don’t want to go there…

but the point makes itself and is easily understood using logical explanations.

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[JimmyG]

I don’t “measure” my success.

It’s a waste of time, as is any time spent looking back and wishing things had been different.

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