Gun Ballot Measures – How're folks feeling?

[rw]

It’s been reported a number of times lately that young people today are not as enamored of car ownership as previous generations, due in part to the costs associated with car ownership and living in urban areas where public transportation meets most of their needs.

I would love to see gun ownership in the US go down as well, by 10%, 20%, even 50% or more.

In my past I would occasionally drive through or visit some of the roughest neighborhoods in Boston and Chicago. It never occurred to me that I should have a gun. I was robbed at gunpoint in downtown Washington, DC and never wished that I had had a gun. And I still don’t.

I have no problem with hunting rifles that are used for hunting or protecting farm animals from predators. Otherwise I do not get the obsession.

And the misuse NRA and gun fans make of the second amendment is disgusting. Can anyone honestly say that gun ownership in the US represents a “well regulated militia?” How can we claim to be a civilized country when owning weapons is more sanctified than ever so many rights that are being chipped away in this country?

So I was happy to fill out my ballot (which just arrived today) for tougher gun regulations. I just wish I had had the opportunity to vote for much, much tougher restrictions.

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[JanS]

so, Jd…since you are unhappy with our present laws, how would you amend them? Would you still want rules? Or would you want guns to be totally unregulated? As in…free for all (not meaning prices)

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[Jd seattle]

Job – I absolutely agree that the use of a gun is an absolute last resort. Anyone that disagrees with that would be foolish. But you don’t get to choose how you are attacked. Sure self defence classes are great and would serve you well against an un armed attacker. What about 3 un armed attackers or one with a knife, or 2 with baseball bats? Oh and I have my 2 year old daughter with me. And to claim more often than not you end up shooting family members is asinine. Are you going to back that up with some stats?

JanS- you are either not reading my posts or you have a comprehension problem. Have I slightly hinted at complete deregulation of firearms? Or is being condescending your new stratigy in proving your point?

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[JoB]

Jd..

so let me ask you a question..

when you buy a tool do you want it to sit idle in it’s drawer

or do you want to use it?

if you are like most people

you want to use it at least once to justify it’s purchase.

so you have this tool..

and you have the opportunity to use it..

if only to frighten someone who is frightening you..

what do you think is going to happen to most people in that situation?

instead of one you now have two incredibly frightened people ..

and if the situation truly is life threatening..

one of them is far more accustomed to using force than the other.

if you were both carrying baseball bats you would both be wary …

because it is a lot harder to hit someone with a baseball bat without risking being hit yourself than it looks..

but it looks a lot less dangerous to use a gun.

the reality is that it isn’t..

but tell that to someone who bought the idea that owning a gun was THE solution to their safety needs…

it’s the people who will choose to use a gun as the solution of first choice because they really don’t know any better who are truly frightening…

because they have no idea how to deal with the danger they just put themselves in

and are far more likely to end up killing innocent bystanders than they are to successfully defend themselves.

i know the myth is that gun owners are all responsible people who train with their weapons and take self defense courses before they choose to carry that weapon…

and you and i both know that is one huge myth.

you simply can’t have the volume of gun sales that we have in this nation

and have even a substantial percentage of those sales go to people who are trained

or are willing to be trained to use their weapons.

So isn’t it time we started talking about gun ownership as it really is…

not just about those few gun enthusiasts

or well trained self defense experts?

the truth is that most of those guns are purchased by people who don’t understand just how lethal that weapon could be to them

and who are going to buy the myth perpetrated by gun lobbies that all you have to do is point the thing and be willing to shoot and you will be safe.

not true at all

as anyone who has any real familiarity with firearms will tell you…

i have been in truly life threatening situations more than once in my life and i survived them all…

because i didn’t have a gun i had no choice but to use my wits

i wish more people would

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[JoB]

let me leave you with this little stat

the life you take with your firearm is likely to be your own

“A 1992 report in the New England Journal of Medicine shows an association between household firearm ownership and gun suicide rates, finding that individuals in a firearm owning home are close to five times more likely to commit suicide than those individuals who do not own firearms.[12][13] Other research has indicated the association is not statistically significant between countries.[14]:30 During the 1980s and early 1990s, there was a strong upward trend in adolescent suicides with guns[15]:29 as well as a sharp overall increase in suicides among those age 75 and over.[16] In the U.S., firearms remain the most common method of suicide, accounting for 51% of all suicides committed in 2006.[17]

The U.S. Department of Justice reports that approximately 60% of all adult firearm deaths are by suicide, 61% more than deaths by homicide.[18]”

yup.. pulled it from wiki but the sources of the links are impressive…

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[JTB]

JoB,

Nice the NEJM could pick up the slack after Congress prohibited the CDC from using any of its funding for research into gun violence. In a similar vein a number of state legislatures have tried to prevent physicians from inquiring about gun ownership and discussing the associated risks with their patients.

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[Jd seattle]

Job – To suggest simply owning a gun will somehow make you want to use it on someone to justify its purchase sounds about as crazy to me as organized religion. An object is somehow going to magically put evil intent in your soul is ludicrous. I hope your not projecting here or I’m glad you don’t own any guns. But yes getting a new gun does make me want to use it, at the shooting range. I will agree that many don’t train with them as much as they should but that’s a big leap to say no training = gun turning you into a killer.

And you study was based on 442 suicides in 2 counties, ya counties. That’s a small pool of data to apply to our whole country

Can you post a link to your wiki page? All I can find is this one which is almost the same, except it has contradicting evidence included.

A 1992 U.S. medical journal report shows an association between household firearm ownership and gun suicide rates, finding that individuals in a firearm owning home are close to five times more likely to commit suicide than those individuals who do not own firearms.[7] However, a 1996 New Zealand study found no significant relationship between household guns and suicide.[8] Assessing data from 14 developed countries where gun ownership levels were known, the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found statistically significant correlations between those levels and suicide rates. However, the parallels were lost when data from additional nations was included.[9]:30 During the 1980s and 1990s, the rate of adolescent suicides with guns caught up with adult rates, and the 75-and-older rate rose above all others.[3]:20-21[10] The use of firearms in suicides ranges from less than 10 percent in Australia[11] to 50 percent in the United States, where it is the most common method[12] and where suicides outnumber homicides 2-to-1.[13]

According to U.S. criminologist Gary Kleck, studies that try to link gun ownership to victimology often fail to account for the presence of guns owned by other people.[14] Research by economists John Lott of the U.S. and John Whitley of Australia indicates that safe-storage laws do not appear to affect juvenile accidental gun deaths or suicides.[15] A committee of the U.S. National Research Council said ecological studies on violence and firearms ownership provide contradictory evidence. The committee wrote: “[Existing] research studies and data include a wealth of descriptive information on homicide, suicide, and firearms, but, because of the limitations of existing data and methods, do not credibly demonstrate a causal relationship between the ownership of firearms and the causes or prevention of criminal violence or suicide.”[16]

.

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[JanS]

Jd…you didn’t hint at anything…I was just asking what you would change…it’s a question , not an accusation – lol. Since you don’t like 594…and you don’t like the present laws, what would you do to fix it? You…personally…what are your ideas? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just curious…what would work best for you?

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[JanS]

Because I see clients who I have not met in my home , a friend once suggested that I purchase a gun for safety. I now have a 5 month old grandchild who lives just next door, so I would have to keep that gun locked up, with no bullets in it. The clients that I see are mostly referrals from physicians, not people off the street just walking in. That gun would do me no good at all if someone decided to do me harm in some way. My main advantage is…they have no clothes on – lol, and I have a very large, very solid weapon of sorts nearby that says “Healing” on it. If I had to I would use it.

No guns in my house…nope.

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[Jd seattle]

“The life you take with your firearm is likely to be your own”

Let’s do a comparison….

Roughly 40,000 suicides a year. About half of those are done by firearm= 20,000. There are 318,000,000 people in the U.S.

That means we have a suicide by firearm rate of 6.28 per 100,000

The U.S. Violent crime rate 386.9 per 100,000

6.28 per 100,000 < 386.9 per 100,000

I will gladly take my chances of committing suicide vs falling victim of a violent crime without my gun.

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[Jd seattle]

JanS – if you weren’t being argumentative why ask if I would want no regulations? Why not stick with the first part, simply asking what I would change? Sorry if I miss took it. Listen I’m not going to write out a whole bill to illustrate my perfect gun legislation. I have put some ideas out there that I would support and also what I wouldn’t support. We both know we are not going to change each others minds here so I’ll leave it at that.

As far as the gun in the home issue that is a valid point. You do have to keep them away from children. I have a 2 year old daughter and a 7 year old nephew that lives with me. My rule is it is either on my person or in my safe and I never break that rule. Typically I always have a small pocket pistol in my pocket when I’m home. I know that sounds nuts to you but it becomes about the same as carrying a cell phone after a while. For those who do not wish to carry they do make some quick safes and release devises for that concern.

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[JoB]

jd..

i am not worried about evil intent

i am worried about hubris

and you should be too

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[JoB]

jd.. typically you have a small pocket pistol in your pocket when you are home.. and you live with a 2 year old and a 7 year old?

thankfully i don’t know anyone whose 2 year old has retrieved the pistol that fell out of their pocket..

but i do know some who have retrieved their cellphone

have you really thought this through?

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[JoB]

jd..

if you are male the incidence of suicide by firearms jumps up to 56%

and 70+% of suicides in this country are committed by males…

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf

and if you are a vet that number goes up to 59%

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/12/1262159/-Guns-and-Suicide-Suicide-Among-Active-Duty-Military-and-Veterans#

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – Unlike the cell phone the pistol lives I a pocket holster. It doesn’t fall out, it just doesn’t. That it what it was designed for. You can throw all kinds of percentage increases at me trying to convince me I’m going to shoot myself. The fact is there are 20,000 suicides by gun in this country. If I’m going to be one of those 20,000, statisticly I will be more likely to be involved in an altercation requiring myself to fight for my life. Everything we do in life is a couculated risk, looking at the numbers, I know where I’ll take my chances.

Your trying to sway people by leading them to believe these horrible accidents of children grabbing guns that fell out of their parents pockets is a common occurrence. It’s not. The news just has to pick up that story every time it happens in this country. It is very tragic. But more kids die in swimming pools each year than accidental shootings. Why does the national news not pick up all those stories?

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[seaopgal]

What I don’t understand is what people who carry guns for personal protection are so afraid of. I live in the same neighborhood, walk the same streets, go out at night to the same clubs or restaurants, ride the same public transportation … I don’t carry a cellphone or other tempting electronics, but otherwise I operate pretty much in the same sphere. What’s different? Why do people feel threatened?

My family hunted, so that I can understand, although I never learned and wouldn’t now. If I put my mind to thinking about target shooting, I can see what might be attractive there. (Although probably not after reading today about the health and environmental risks from prolonged lead exposure.) But the need — let alone the desire — to carry a gun for personal protection? I don’t get it.

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – As far as your concern about hubris, again statistically unlikely. There have been a few studies on licensed concealed carriers. In all cases, CC’s are far less likely to be involved in crime than any other group of people, in a few cases, even police. Texas actually keeps data on their CC’s, it shows the same results as the studies.

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[Jd seattle]

seaopgal – the problem is none of us understand everything other people do. There is no point to try, we are all wired differently. If you don’t feel the need to carry a gun, don’t. Nobody is suggesting you should. Most people who carry never even have to consider using it. But what if, that one time, your life is put in that position. I’d rather be prepared. It’s an insurance policy. Does it guarantee my safety? No, but it helps my odds. Protecting my wife and daughter is the bigger concern than myself.

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[dobro]

I feel sorry for people who live their lives in constant fear.

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[Jd seattle]

Dobro – I feel sorry for them as well.

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[JoB]

jd..

there have been very few studies on gun owners of any kind… except those funded by handgun manufacturers.

the NRA lobbied to make it illegal for the CDC to assess the health risk of handguns or gunshot wounds.

You know that organization that used to be the National Rifle Association and promoted gun safety for people who actually used their rifles and shotguns to hunt.

The NRA was taken over by handgun gun companies in the 80s and now all it’s interested in is preventing any research that might indicate that gun ownership comes with health risks…

but i can tell you this.. as a male, you are more likely to shot than to get prostrate cancer…

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[JoB]

jd..

getting your wife and children to safety will protect them much better than exchanging gunfire with an assailant..

honest.

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[JanS]

Jd..you rattle off statistics, and say that the instances of children getting hold of parents guns/weapons is small….it’s still too big…It should be a big fat 0. It shouldn’t happen. And gun owners of all kinds should strive for that instead of blithely saying tsk, tsk, but the instance isn’t that great…more kids die from ________(fill in the blank) :(

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[JanS]

yeah…that one time…I hear that a lot…it never happens, we never use our guns…but that one time. Like that one time you step off the curb, and BAM ! Just sayin’….

so..what you are saying is your owning a gun is more than a “hobby”? It’s for protection…right?

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[Jd seattle]

JanS – I rattle off statistics because JoB thinks it’s ok to make claims as if they were facts when they are nothing but assumptions. If you are going to claim something be prepared to back it up. Don’t start screaming IT’S THE NRA’S FAULT because you got called out and can’t rebut. I never said the stats were ok with me. I think they are awful and agree gun owners should strive for that. But how can we attain that illusive 0 number with so many guns and criminals in this country? Confi… Oh wait, I forgot. I’m being paranoid.

Job – there have been two states that have kept records on CC’s and findings were both the same. Please tell me how the gun manufacturers influenced state records? The other “study” for lack of a better term is quite a comical story. The almighty New York Times did a piece attempting to bash CC’s. They sited a bunch of figures attempting to paint them as criminals. Unfortunately for them some readers compared those numbers to the total population of the state the article was about. Shoot wouldn’t you know it that the NYT’s own numbers proved that CC’s were 5-6 times less likely to be involved in crime? Don’t worry I have links to everything I stated if you would like them.

Also you seem upset the CDC cant study gun violence. I am happy to inform you that one of Obamas executive orders last year was for the CDC to begin with the studies. I wonder why the media hasn’t told you about the preliminary report? Maybe this is why…

All quoted from the CDC report.

“Here are some key findings from the CDC report, “Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” released in June:

1. Armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker:

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

2. Defensive uses of guns are common:

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

3. Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths, and both are declining:

“The number of public mass shootings of the type that occurred at Sandy Hook Elementary School accounted for a very small fraction of all firearm-related deaths. Since 1983 there have been 78 events in which 4 or more individuals were killed by a single perpetrator in 1 day in the United States, resulting in 547 victims and 476 injured persons.” The report also notes, “Unintentional firearm-related deaths have steadily declined during the past century. The number of unintentional deaths due to firearm-related incidents accounted for less than 1 percent of all unintentional fatalities in 2010.”

4. “Interventions” (i.e, gun control) such as background checks, so-called assault rifle bans and gun-free zones produce “mixed” results:

“Whether gun restrictions reduce firearm-related violence is an unresolved issue.” The report could not conclude whether “passage of right-to-carry laws decrease or increase violence crime.”

5. Gun buyback/turn-in programs are “ineffective” in reducing crime:

“There is empirical evidence that gun turn in programs are ineffective, as noted in the 2005 NRC study Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. For example, in 2009, an estimated 310 million guns were available to civilians in the United States (Krouse, 2012), but gun buy-back programs typically recover less than 1,000 guns (NRC, 2005). On the local level, buy-backs may increase awareness of firearm violence. However, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for example, guns recovered in the buy-back were not the same guns as those most often used in homicides and suicides (Kuhn et al., 2002).”

6. Stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime:

“More recent prisoner surveys suggest that stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals. … According to a 1997 survey of inmates, approximately 70 percent of the guns used or possess by criminals at the time of their arrest came from family or friends, drug dealers, street purchases, or the underground market.”

7. The vast majority of gun-related deaths are not homicides, but suicides:

“Between the years 2000-2010 firearm-related suicides significantly outnumbered homicides for all age groups, annually accounting for 61 percent of the more than 335,600 people who died from firearms related violence in the United States.”

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