Gun Ballot Measures – How're folks feeling?

[Ellisd]

moreover your link is to a known anti gun association so…I think I will have to go with bias. I believe that CPRC and townhall are a bit more neutral to the situation. I am sure if I looked I could find data to the exact opposite of yours from pro 2A sites as well

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[JoB]

Ellisd..

i594 is not a perfect law.

a perfect law does not exist.

your concerns with i594 are that it could be used to restrict the “rights” of current gun owners..

a capacity you clearly have little trust in when you state that current gun laws do not make a difference.

I know this is America.. but you still don’t get to have your cake and eat it too :)

It’s way past time that we stepped back from the sacred cow of gun ownership created by the NRA after they abandoned their emphasis on gun safety and responsible ownership and treat guns like we do other potentially dangerous products.

by their very nature.. guns are potentially dangerous objects.

you would like to see regulation that would prevent a “Microsoft reject out running around with a 44mag thinking they are cool when they have no experience in shooting” from concealed carry?

i would like to prevent the idiots who may or may not be able to competently handle their firearm from arming themselves to the hilt and parading through our nation’s toy stores “to make their point”.

the only point i see them making is that they are complete a..hats who like to frighten children.

We can agree completely that both categories of irresponsible gun owners exist..

so why can’t we agree that something needs to be done to limit their access to firearms and to facilitate accountability when we can’t?

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[Ellisd]

I retract townhall due to it is a conservative site, I will look for more neutral statistics back in a moment

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[Ellisd]

I cannot seem to find data other than from cpd that states that robbery is down 20% and that homicides are at a 56 year low since CC was allowed. I am sure though, it must surely be a coincident that when the ban went into effect that the homicide rate trended up until cc was allowed then sharp fall. The police confiscated 1300 illegal weapons. again, though, by your own words chicago had a plethora of firearms in the hands of bad guys WITH some of the most strict laws. That seems to back the side that you are opposing.

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[JoB]

Ellisd..

” chicago had a plethora of firearms in the hands of bad guys WITH some of the most strict laws. That seems to back the side that you are opposing.”

well… no…

since the confiscation of illegal weapons also coincided with the drop in gun violence rates it is as reasonable to assume that it was the causative effect as was CC.

if in fact there was a causative event. We won’t know the answer to that for a decade or two.

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[wakeflood]

Yeah, a city in a STATE with lax gun laws AND surrounded by other states with lax gun laws. If you can drive half an hour, you can get all the guns you want. And they apparently did and do.

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[Ellisd]

@job

I completely agree with you. I think there are many things that can be done to fix the situation. I just don’t see i594 as anything but a poor attempt at a bandaid for a bee sting. Again I will state my point. UBCs will not stop criminals from getting guns. That is a fact. It may make it slightly harder for a few. Again I do want UBCs, but not this way. Making it harder to get firearms, ok. The main issue still lies in the behavior. I will go back to my statement of In gun violence violence is the issue. If a mechanic messes up your car, do you look at the wrench or the mechanic? Assuming that oh this will be fixed later after it is law….well come on, do you truly feel that that is a responsible way to enact laws? We need to do something, but we need to go after the problem not after the tool used.

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[Ellisd]

yes because you do not need a nics on interstate sales?

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[Ellisd]

Lets look at some of these shootings:

Newtown:

Criminal killed his mother (legal owner of firearms) and took her guns. Background check would not have helped here

Aurora:

Criminal used his 5 guns and he had background checks done on all of them

Tuscon:

Again had background check done to obtain firearm used

Virginia Tech:

State did not report mental health status to nics so…he passed the background checks

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[JoB]

Ellisd

” If a mechanic messes up your car, do you look at the wrench or the mechanic?”

poor analogy

i would be foolish if i did not insist that the mechanic wielding that wrench was trained and licensed and bonded.

you can not say the same for gun owners.

I agree that i594 won’t stop criminals from illegally obtaining guns

it won’t stop you from lending your gun to your brother-in-law either

but what it will do is create a paperwork trail of accountability for guns that are used in violent crimes…

and that accountability leads to more responsible behavior.

You will be far more likely to take a good hard long look at your brother in law and ask yourself how he is treating your sister before lending him your gun.

realistically, i am sure your brother-in-law if you have one or more is a nice guy and you don’t have to worry about him..

but if all brother-in-laws were as upstanding as yours i wouldn’t be able to so easily make my point …

what i like about i594 is that it introduces a clear expectation of accountability into gun sales…

something that is currently missing in the national debate

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[JoB]

Ellisd..

my daughter was at Virginia Tech

and it was her department that was targeted

her saving grace was that instead of being in the lab that morning crunching data.. she overslept ..

it’s a small small world.

would a background check have stopped that shooter?

probably not.

but a culture in which accountability was irretrievably linked to gun ownership might have prevented that tragedy…

as would one where the “rights” of gun owners to privacy didn’t trump the need of citizens to keep themselves and their children safe.

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[Jd seattle]

I’m curious how full registration even makes a dent in gun deaths. Say police and government know where all of the LEGAL guns are. That does not stop suicides. That does not stop existing gangs and criminals from selling guns and killing people. It doesn’t stop little Timmy from bringing a gun to school. Doesn’t stop crimes committed in the heat of the moment. Doesn’t stop theft of guns.

So when UBC don’t work, then an AWB doesn’t work, then registration doesn’t work. What’s next? Have our homes randomly inspected for safe storage? Continue to limit what types of gus are legal? Require “smart gun” technology? More and more laws to try and fix each and every death that happens because of a gun?

Can you at least see where we are coming from with some of these fears? When each new law that is a “good start” doesn’t have the full desired effect, where do you stop that isn’t confiscation.

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[maplesyrup]

I can see where you’re coming from if you state that the legislation is poorly written or has issues. I might not agree 100% but I can see it.

However I can’t really understand the fear of guns laws and the irrational conclusion that all of this is going to lead to big gubbmint inspecting your houses.

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[Jd seattle]

@maplesyrup – Washington had proposed legislation last year with that very thing it. It would have allowed police to inspect our homes for owning guns. Check out this article about it.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020373291_westneat17xml.html

Still think we are being paranoid? If new legislation passed that dropped the death by firearm rate by say 5000, how long does it take before we have to deal with those other 25000? Pass more big legislation, drop another 10000. High fives all around. What about those 15000 still hanging around. What number of deaths is acceptable to you before we have good enough gun laws? I imagine it’s a very small number but you will never attain it by gun laws. It’s a mental health and cultural thing and until we deal with it nothing will change. Take guns away or find a new solution.

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[JoB]

JD Seattle..

they’re coming to take our guns away..

away to the ????

good heavens…

do you really think your fear of being deprived of your guns is reason enough to defeat Universal Background Checks for weapon sales?

really?

how about my fear of some idiot who never should have had a gun in the first place pulling their gun in public and somehow taking me out as collateral damage?

oops.

that or something like it is a far more likely scenario than you being deprived of the right to own guns.

I will freely admit that i don’t want to stop at background checks. i think all guns should be licensed and insured…

I think you should have to make an effort and think carefully about the responsibility you are taking on before purchasing a gun… and i think you should be fully accountable for any crimes committed with a gun you own.

And i don’t think that should apply just to criminals either.

I have a very good friend that legally carries a gun. She knows how to use it too. Unfortunately, she believes her daily dose of pain medication not only doesn’t affect her judgment but doesn’t affect her aim.

that’s put a serious dent in the face time we spend together. I won’t drive my car when i have been taking pain pills far weaker than what she consumes every day.

If i think it is unwise to put myself and others at risk driving my car … why would i willingly put myself in the same space with someone who thinks it’s ok to carry a gun when far more impaired?

While it is illegal for her to drive under the influence of her medications.. it is not illegal for her to own a gun or to have a concealed carry permit or to use it in self defense.

Something is terribly wrong with that picture.

we always think it is someone else.. that other kind of people .. who becomes a danger because they have easy access to a gun and a limited sense of accountability.

it isn’t.

I can’t see why any responsible gun owner would ever want to see guns in the hands of people who can not pass a background check.

Nor can i see any reason why any responsible gun owner wouldn’t want to see the basis of failing a background check expanded to include people with anger management issues large enough to necessitate restraining orders or DUIs or even the use of impairing medications.

It would seem to me that responsible takes on a whole new meaning when you stop thinking about what you fear will be taken from you and think instead about what responsible gun ownership should look like.

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[Jd seattle]

To be clear, I don’t think there will be some big confiscation event. Over the corse of decades so many laws will be added eventually it will be near impossible to own guns in any reasonable manner.

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – just because we don’t agree does not mean I want dangerous people to have guns. Did I not propose a background check system I would fully support. Please look at my first post. What would insurance possibly solve other than financial issues. If the thought of ruining your life and going to prison does not lead you to be cautious, responsible, and accountable, what will? Paying a few bucks in insurance a month?

I’m sorry about your friend, but how would background checks or registration stop what she is doing? It would not. I haven’t seen anyone propose a bill to make it illegal to carry a gun under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Probably something I would get behind.

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[dingdongbutthole]

Don’t tell me 594 is a start.

Do you build a building on shaky ground or do you give it a strong solid foundation?

You want better gun laws, propose something that is reasonable, that will work and that will not be useless. What’s the point of more laws if it’s not enforced? Idiots.

for the time being, 594 is going down. my 5 year old niece can propose a better initiative.

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[JoB]

and in my inbox today

http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2024694167_billhansonmarkericksopedproi594xxxml.html

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[JoB]

Jd

if the cost of your gun insurance was tied to the number and types of guns you owned and the manner in which you secured them..

i am pretty sure it would have an effect on what you purchased and how securely you stored them.

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[JoB]

dingdong…

you may not like the way i594 addresses transfers..

but it wouldn’t be a solid bill unless it did.

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[jukk0u]

“Fair enough JD. Can I ask why people like yourself are against the notion of registering your guns with serial numbers? I have the right to own a car, but the state and my insurance company have the VIN and it helps law enforcement should it be stolen, etc. “

The 2A isn’t only about hunting. It is also there as a guarantee against tyranny and political usurpation of our nation. This is the biggest reason why opposition to registration is so vehement.

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[JoB]

jukkOu

do you think that unregistered guns are the guarantee against tyranny and political usurpation of our government?

as someone who has personally been there in the midst of that conversation in the 60s i can report that changing public opinion and voting are far more effective tools than guns.

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – Exactly how will you know how I store them? Please tell me? What guns will cost more to insure than others? Dangerous president to set as well. While yes you do need licensing and insurance on your vehicle, IF you drive it on public property, this is a wee bit different. Not to mention requiring insurance to exercise a constitutional right. While you may not agree with the interpretation, the Supreme Court has ruled.

There are plenty of dangerous things in this world, just because I don’t partake in some of them doesn’t mean I think everyone that does should pay insurance to do them.

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[JoB]

Jd..

your insurance company will know what you tell them…

just like they do now when they ask questions evaluating the cost of your renters insurance or your homeowners insurance

or your life insurance

and should you need that insurance

you will be much better off if you have told them the truth..

while it is possible to be a gun owner/collector who keeps their guns securely locked in cabinets..

it is far more likely that any gun that will attract the attention of any authority will be used in public.

you can argue that insurance is unnecessary…

but i am guessing that if gun owners become accountable for the consequences of damage caused by their guns…

the demand for insurance will make that a moot point.

if you own a gun you will want to be insured

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[Author]

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