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February 4, 2011 at 6:04 pm #597850
KenParticipanthttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/2/4/101113/2755#27
Excerpt:
A fundamentalist Christian organization, Child Evangelism Fellowship, has recently ramped up their presence on public grade school campuses. They are emboldened by a supreme court decision that said, to paraphrase: if schools lease facilities to anyone they can’t exclude religious groups like CEF. Clarence Thomas, who wrote the majority opinion, asserted that the establishment clause was not at issue, because CEF activities were clearly distinguished from school sponsored activities. But are they? Can children in first grade really tell the difference? Or has CEF crossed a line? In this interview, a Seattle parent, John Lederer, talks about what happened at his daughter’s school.
February 4, 2011 at 6:20 pm #716370
Genesee HillParticipantOf course they can’t. When I was in first grade, I believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, as well as God.
February 4, 2011 at 7:12 pm #716371
ZenguyParticipantThere is a big difference between using school grounds (open to all) and recruiting, which has restrictions.
February 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm #716372
DPMemberI think DailyKos is spinning this one just a little, Ken.
Excerpt from the DailyKos interview/story:
Q: Why don’t you start by telling us what Good News Clubs are.
A: It’s easiest if I simply quote from their website: “Good News Club® is a ministry of Child Evangelism Fellowship® in which trained teachers meet with groups of children in schools, homes, community centers, churches, apartment complexes, just about anywhere the children can easily and safely meet. Each week the teacher presents an exciting Bible lesson using colorful materials from CEF Press®. This action-packed time also includes songs, Scripture memory, a missions story and review games or other activities focused on the lesson’s theme.”
The use of the word “teacher” and “classroom” here make it sound like Christianity is being taught by teachers in classrooms. Not so.
This isn’t really that different from the “prayer in schools” issue that’s been bouncing around the courts for years. Some evangelical group somewhere is always trying to ramp up their recruiting. It doesn’t mean our public classrooms are on the verge of becoming pulpits.
When I was in HS, back in Iowa, we had something called the “Fellowship of Christian Athletes.” Nice people. These kids probably talked to other students about God on school grounds. They probably even recruited a few people to their “cause” right there in the gym. Oh well.
We also had a group called “the stoners.” And I would have to say they recruited even more people to their cause.
In the bathrooms.
In the parking lot.
Under the bleachers.
Probably even in Û©Â ChurcHÂ Û©
Thirty years on and some of the Christians are now stoners. Meanwhile, some of the stoners have become Christians.
(Yawn.)
Life goes on . . .
February 4, 2011 at 8:32 pm #716373
RarelyEverParticipantI agree with DP (I think!) – having grown up in Germany I was always puzzled by the whole separation-of-Church-and-State issue in schools; when I grew up religious education was mandatory from elementary through high school. Once a week you would go to one class room if you were Catholic, if you were Protestant you went to another, and if you were neither you went to Ethics class.
The irony is that the percentage of Germans who profess to believe in a personal god is only 30% (here it is 83%) – despite religion having been taught in school… or is that perhaps BECAUSE of it? Sort of gives you pause, don’ it? :)
February 4, 2011 at 8:59 pm #716374
ZenguyParticipantActually it has gone down, in 2008 it was at 76% an declining, Washington is on the low end with only 34%.
February 4, 2011 at 9:11 pm #716375
RarelyEverParticipantI’m sure there’s regional differences; I got my data from Wiki.
February 4, 2011 at 9:22 pm #716376
B-squaredParticipanti don’t think Dailyko is spinning this at all. that quote is allegedly from the Good News Website. no spinning necessary. In elementary school, it isn’t likely the kids are able to discern school activity vs. non-school activity when it occurs on school grounds.
February 4, 2011 at 9:45 pm #716377
DPMemberDailyKos (and the concerned parent they interviewed) are taking the Good News Website at their word, which probably wasn’t a wise move, since it could actually magnify the importance and relevance of the Christian group beyond what it deserves.
In other words . . . Kos is being spun.
Om, in accordance with what zenguy and RarelyEver are saying, I think we atheists and agnostics should try to infiltrate these Kiddie Christian groups. Give them a little boost, you know?
Who’s with me?
[insert cricket noises]
February 5, 2011 at 3:17 am #716378
JoBParticipantFebruary 5, 2011 at 4:25 am #716379
redblackParticipantrarely ever:
Once a week you would go to one class room if you were Catholic, if you were Protestant you went to another, and if you were neither you went to Ethics class.
as an atheist, i find this comment hilarious. (the extrapolation is that christians don’t have ethics.)
and am i to surmise that there weren’t any jews, muslims, hindus, or buddhists in your school? i know that, like the u.s., germany is predominantly christian – when germans profess any religion, that is – but is there religious diversity?
February 5, 2011 at 2:17 pm #716380
KenParticipantFCA is organized by the same evangelical cult as CEF.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund175.html
February 5, 2011 at 8:46 pm #716381
DPMember
Some of the very nicest kids in my school were members of FCA. They were good athletes and good students, too.
Yet they were not stuck-up like either the “jocks” or like me and my friends (who thought we were way too clever to believe in anything beyond ourselves.)
February 24, 2011 at 6:54 pm #716382
MarkAngelloMemberReligious groups have the same rights as non-religious groups; the Supreme Court said so. That means evangelists and proselytizers may lawfully attempt to persuade children to tell other peoples’ children about how to obtain peace of mind, longer life, superior health, and life-long marriages. How? By entering into a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Now what’s so bad about all that? Sounds pretty good — very good — to me.
February 24, 2011 at 7:49 pm #716383
KenParticipantSo you have no problem with Scientology doing the same thing to your kid eh?
I turn the dogs loose on fundys when they ignore the sign and knock on the door to “save” me. The kids don’t have that choice.
February 24, 2011 at 8:28 pm #716384
JoBParticipantMarkAngello…
brought to you by the same people who objected to celebrating halloween in the schools…
if you were into exposure.. halloween wouldn’t be a problem. That holiday is about as secular as you can get.
February 24, 2011 at 8:55 pm #716385
funkietooParticipantOh…My…G**! DP–you have are so hilarious! Night of the Living Dead [Christian} Zombie Athletics. I’m going to be laughing all day…what a great image!
February 24, 2011 at 8:56 pm #716386
herongrrrlParticipantRespectfully, JoB, there are plenty of people around who celebrate Halloween as a religious holiday. Those I know who do so, however, are not members of religions who seek to impose their way of thinking on everyone else.
February 24, 2011 at 9:23 pm #716387
MarkAngelloMemberKen asked, “So you have no problem with Scientology doing the same thing to your kid eh?”
Legal objection, you mean? No, why should I? It’s a free country. Jews, Mohammedans, Catholics, and people who are without a god all enjoy the same religous rights thanks to our Christian founding fathers.
I have personal objections, just as you do. So what? Our personal bias and prejudices mean absolutely NOTHING to the law and the Constitution. Free Speech Rulz, eh?
February 24, 2011 at 9:28 pm #716388
JoBParticipantMarkAngello…
but this isn’t exactly a free speech issue is it?
this is introducing religious education into our public school setting under the guise of social programs.
the very fact that a parent can not obtain a syllabus of the instruction makes any consent they might give uninformed….
which infringes on parental rights in a big way.
February 24, 2011 at 9:31 pm #716389
JoBParticipantherongrrl..
i meant no disrespect to those who celebrate All Hallows Eve as a religious holiday… i might know a few celebrants myself:)
but i don’t think they should be used as an excuse to deny schoolchildren the secular celebration of halloween.
i have a problem with people who would deny you your freedom of expression while insisting upon not only enjoying theirs … but teaching them to your children without your informed consent.
February 24, 2011 at 11:06 pm #716390
MarkAngelloMemberJob===but this isn’t exactly a free speech issue is it?
Sure it is. That’s what the Supreme Court ruled. Religious indoctrination is protected free speech.
Job=== this is introducing religious education into our public school setting under the guise of social programs.
Yes, its both, right? I mean private free speech social programs can also be religious. This is not government speech but private citizen speech. That makes it constitutional for parents who want religious-based social instruction after school hours.
Job==the very fact that a parent can not obtain a syllabus of the instruction makes any consent they might give uninformed….
I think that applied only to a local group formed to fight CEF. They wanted to censor CEF or ban it, so no wonder CEF would refuse. You can find out what they do by visiting a club at another school system or asking them online.
Job== which infringes on parental rights in a big way.
Good point! Sorry, but I don’t know the legal definition of a parent’s ‘right’ in this matter. How much information does a parent need? The takehome permission slip says it is has Bible verses and is religious. I’d like that for my kids to build moral character, but that’s my personal response.
February 24, 2011 at 11:14 pm #716391
KenParticipantChristian founding fathers? Are you insane or just one of those revisionist fundies who think lying about the history of this country will justify your tenuous grasp of reality.
Ignorance is King. Many would not profit from his overthrow for they enrich themselves by means of his dark monarchy. They are his Court and under his aegis they defraud and govern for their own benefit and to perpetuate their power. They milk and shear and butcher the flocks that they maintain on bread and circuses, herding and stampeding them at their whim. Communication and education they fear, for the written word and the ability to think are channels by which the subjects may lift themselves into the light of reason, there to see the glaring flaws of the reign and rise up to throw off its yoke. The minions of Ignorance have weapons keen-honed and they use them with skill. They will press battle upon the world when their interests are threatened, and the violence which follows will last until the structure of society as it now exists is leveled to rubble and we are left among the ruins. Adapted from the 1959 post-apocalyptic cautionary tale ‘A Canticle for Leibowitz’ by WM Miller Jr .
You may already have triggered another long and tedious debunking of your Barton induced lies.
February 24, 2011 at 11:26 pm #716392
KenParticipantFebruary 24, 2011 at 11:30 pm #716393
MarkAngelloMemberKen, I don’t know who you are or anything whatever about what you just posted. I don’t insult people as you just did. I’ve no interest in rudeness.
Why not continue the civil conversation instead?
Here is my last post–
Job===but this isn’t exactly a free speech issue is it?
Sure it is. That’s what the Supreme Court ruled. Religious indoctrination is protected free speech.
Job=== this is introducing religious education into our public school setting under the guise of social programs.
Yes, its both, right? I mean private free speech social programs can also be religious. This is not government speech but private citizen speech. That makes it constitutional for parents who want religious-based social instruction after school hours.
Job==the very fact that a parent can not obtain a syllabus of the instruction makes any consent they might give uninformed….
I think that applied only to a local group formed to fight CEF. They wanted to censor CEF or ban it, so no wonder CEF would refuse. You can find out what they do by visiting a club at another school system or asking them online.
Job== which infringes on parental rights in a big way.
Good point! Sorry, but I don’t know the legal definition of a parent’s ‘right’ in this matter. How much information does a parent need? The takehome permission slip says it is has Bible verses and is religious. I’d like that for my kids to build moral character, but that’s my personal response.
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