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June 17, 2008 at 1:14 am #587231
funnygirl28MemberMy neighbors and I in the Pigeon Point area are putting together a community group to try to do something about the ever-growing train noise coming from the Port of Seattle and Harbor Island areas. I figured I would post something here in case residents from the east side of Admiral, and surrounding areas might be interested in joining forces as well. There *are* things that can be done, we just have to force the issue with the City and the railroads. If interested, please send an email to david@enprecis.com and let him know you would like to join the thread
June 17, 2008 at 5:42 pm #627907
villagegreenMemberI live in the Belvidere neighborhood and have wondered about this issue for a while now. Having only live in our current house for a year and a half, I thought maybe the train noise was just something that people in this area had grown accustomed to – better to suck it up and get used to it than complain.
Actually, it’s no big deal in the winter (when windows are closed), but during the summer I’ve actually been woken up at 2am by what seem like excessively long horn blasts. I get the fact that you have to send out warning sounds, but laying on the horn for 10 seconds or longer at a time seems ridiculous. Keep it short and sweet and I think it would be much less irritating and serve the same purpose.
Believe me, I’m used to train noise. I work in Georgetown about 30 feet from the tracks and listen to the trains all day long. I have no problem with the conductors who follow the law by using their horns at intersections, but who also respect the people and businesses in the area by using short blasts instead of long prolonged blasts.
It seems reasonable that some type of compromise could be reach whereby public safety is preserved and an entire area of densely populated residential housing isn’t made to feel as though all train conductors are a**holes out to make sure everyone is awake when they are.
June 17, 2008 at 10:04 pm #627908
wsChicMemberhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_horn
You might want to read up on some of the regulations about the signals that trains are required by law to use before you go complaining about it, just so you don’t look foolish. This is just one link I found that had a bit of information about the trains. I believe Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad (BNSF) runs in the area you are complaining about, they should have more specific information about their regulations.
Personally I would feel much better about train conductors using the proper signals for safety purposes rather than attempting to alter their practices so a few people can get some sleep. Are a few minutes of lost sleep more valuable than someone’s life?
June 17, 2008 at 10:40 pm #627909
wsChicMemberJune 17, 2008 at 11:18 pm #627910
villagegreenMemberwsChic, thanks for the links. I’ll definitely read from the info.
You obviously don’t live in the effected neighborhood. Otherwise, you’d know that some conductors use a shorter horn while others lay on it for extended periods. I witness this same discrepancy in horn use in Georgetown everyday. Some conductors lay on the horn, while others use the beep beep technique. If the shorter horn is breaking the law that would seem strange since some conductors already employ that method. Why would they risk their jobs and the public safetly.
I’ll read through the links, though, and see if I can find an answer.
June 17, 2008 at 11:56 pm #627911
JimmyGMemberI grew up with the train tracks 3 blocks from our house. The place would rattle when the long freights went by at full speed during night time hours, blowing their horns the whole way.
From my house here in WS I hear the trains and find it soothing.
Did you not know the tracks were there when you moved in? I mean good luck in asking the railroad companies to toot their horns for shorter lengths of time, but I find the quest to do so quite entertaining.
I mean there’s quality of life issues… and then there’s just folly.
June 18, 2008 at 12:08 am #627912
villagegreenMemberJimmyG, I’m sure nothing will change. I don’t plan on getting involved in the fight, I just sorta wanted to rant.
To answer your question, yes, I knew the tracks were there before I bought the house (they’re actually quite aways away), but didn’t realize the extent of the horn blasting during the night. If you had a 6 month old baby that was being woken up by the trains and crying because of it at 2am in the morning, you’d most likely want to rant as well. I’ll try to remember it’s all folly the next time it happens.
June 18, 2008 at 12:27 am #627913
elgregoMemberNevermind.
June 18, 2008 at 2:38 am #627914
cjboffoliParticipantI live up near the Junction, miles away from railroad tracks and the Port of Seattle, and I’ve heard the extremely loud and long horn blasts other are talking about. I support their activism. I’m all for safety. But I have a hard time understanding why the horns need to be loud enough to be heard many miles away.
June 18, 2008 at 1:20 pm #627915
RonMParticipantIt’s unfortunate that you’re surprised by the city noises. You have to go a lot further from the city for quiet, but then you may have visits from bears and cougars instead. I’ve been a WS resident for over 70 years and the sound of the trains and whistles are second nature to me. But then I also miss the sound of the fog horn at the Duamish point and Alki too, and the ships arriving and departing the harbor. Years ago the steel mill moved all of it’s product around their yards with little steam engines and I miss them too.
In the day the sounds of industry were a welcome reminder of a vibrant city when jobs were scarce and better days were only a hope.
June 18, 2008 at 2:55 pm #627916
JoBParticipantJune 18, 2008 at 3:06 pm #627917
charlabobParticipantThanks, RonM — for reminding me that all those sounds mean something good. When they fall silent, that often means industry, jobs, and the tax base that makes our amenities possible have moved away.
I was born in Chicago, literally next to an El track, and city noises have always been soothing to me. When I visit quiet places, the silence keeps me awake. Mooing cows and chirping crickets are much more distracting to me than horns, train whistles, police sirens, and even gunshots and fireworks. VG, who knows — your 6 month-old may grow up to be an adult with a vestigial memory of noise, who is wary silence. :-)
When Seattle hosted the all-star game (2000) Commissioner Bud Selig asked, seriously, if the trains could please just not run during the game — apparently worried that the noise would distract the television viewers from the commercials. When the RR folks stopped rolling on the floor, shrieking and laughing, they said, “Nope.” And the trains ran and seattle ball game viewers were treated to stereo RR whistles — through their TV speakers and their open windows.
June 18, 2008 at 4:37 pm #627918
funnygirl28MemberI think some of you misunderstood the point of my original post. I have lived in the Pigeon Point area for many years and yes, I was fully aware of the train noise when I moved in and it was never much of an issue until recently. However, the volume of traffic and amount of noise has gotten much, much worse in a very short period of time and there are many people who are affected by it. Anyone who lives in this area would likely agree and those of you who dismiss our quality of life concerns as “folly” obviously don’t have to live with this problem. (How would you like it if you were woken up every 20 minutes to the sound of blasting train horns throughout the night? And have to go through it again night after night after night? Is it folly to expect to get a good night’s sleep once in a while?) It would be ridiculous to expect the train noise to stop altogether, and that is not the end goal, but as I said in my original post, there are definitely things that can be done (for example, the cities of Tacoma and Yakima have implemented federal quiet zones in key residential/railroad areas). I find it really discouraging that some of the people on this board are so quick to dismiss citizen activism as a waste of time since I am quite confident that if this was happening in your back yard you would be singing a different tune.
June 18, 2008 at 5:01 pm #627919
JoBParticipantfunnygirl28…
i don’t think it is a waste of time.
The increase in traffic is due in a large part to the rising fuel costs.. rail traffic looks a lot more economical now…
but that means a lot of new and inexperienced engineers… and they need to be taught moderation. that doesn’t happen unless the issue is brought to the attention of those who do the training.
and that takes public activism.
I don’t think people have thought through the implications of rising fuel costs yet… and the increased rail traffic that goes with it.
You are right, you won’t get quiet.. but you may get some sleep.
June 18, 2008 at 5:38 pm #627920
villagegreenMemberRonM and charlabob, I have no problem with ‘city noises’. In fact, sometimes I wish West Seattle had more city noises. At times this side of the Duwamish is so quiet it feels like another world from Seattle.
The problem isn’t the ‘noise’ per se, it’s the dead quiet which is suddently pierced by an alarmingly loud and prolonged train horn. I lived in Capitol Hill near Broadway for many years, and believe me I had no problem with all the noise over there. I even found it ‘soothing’ on occasion. However, the increased train noise over here seems a little out of place. Especially when things can be done about it.
June 19, 2008 at 3:18 pm #627921
RonMParticipantI’m sorry if I sound unsympathetic to your woes. We West Seattlites have had our grievances with the city over the years. Perhaps you’ve not lived here long enough to remember the tide flats that stunk to high heaven at low tide. They were used by the city as a garbage dump for many years as well. There was a time before the high bridge and the viaduct when Spokane St. was a nightmare with all of it’s railroad crossings and bridge and the city wouldn’t do anything about it. When the street car trestle on Spokane failed and caused a fatal accident the city was prompted to remove it, but replaced it with nothing. It wasn’t until after the war that the viaduct and trackless trolleys (electric busses) gave us a measure of relief. We suffer again by the replacement of those clean running and reliable trackless trolleys by smelly and underpowered diesels, another product of city graft and corruption. Perhaps I am a minority, but I welcome the sounds of our working community.
June 19, 2008 at 4:54 pm #627922
KenParticipantI live in Highpoint and I hear the trains and the draw bridge traffic. Much of the sound at Pigeon Point seems to be the yard traffic to the north where some of the tracks run across street right of way and are probably required signals. Increased rail transport and yard transfer work may be both causing more noise.
Draw bridge traffic also uses signal horns, flags and radiotelephone.
I was assuming the extended blasts and engine noise were barge and ship traffic. Maybe not.
Either way, you are surrounded by industrial zones and you might be able to petition for reduction of the accessed value on your house easier than you can get the trains to make less noise.
(3) The sound signal to request the opening of a draw is one prolonged blast followed by one short blast sounded not more than three seconds after the prolonged blast. For vessels required to be passed through a draw during a scheduled closure period, the sound signal to request the opening of the draw during that period is five short blasts sounded in rapid succession.
(4) When the draw can be opened immediately, the sound signal to acknowledge a request to open the draw is one prolonged blast followed by one short blast sounded not more than 30 seconds after the requesting signal.
(5) When the draw cannot be opened immediately, or is open and shall be closed promptly, the sound signal to acknowledge a request to open the draw is five short blasts sounded in rapid succession not more than 30 seconds after the vessel’s opening signal. The signal shall be repeated until acknowledged in some manner by the requesting vessel.
Specific signals for local Duwamish drawbridges:
Note the restrictions on rush hour openings which may push more traffic to the overnight hours.
June 19, 2008 at 5:18 pm #627923
GreenSpacesMemberI used to live south of Puget Ridge and now I live in High Point and I hear all the same noises – the trains at night, even the throb of I-5 when it gets really quiet, the fog horn for the ferry on foggy mornings, seagulls flying overhead making me feel like I was on some exotic vacation at the beach. I grew up in the country 10 miles from the nearest town with all the silence – except the birds in the morning, beginning at about 4:30 AM. I am happy to say I still hear the birds at 4:30 AM, even here in the city. Except the crows – I honestly could do without their horrific squacking.
I guess what wakes me up the most is the different zones of irrigation systems kicking on in the middle of the night and the hiss of air and water as they start to water the bioswales and landscaped areas all around my home. That seems to get me every morning. (We sleep with the windows open year-round). I recently had the zone closest to my house changed from 5:30 AM to 2:30 AM so when it woke me up I could at least get a few more hours of sleep instead of laying there for a half hour waiting for the alarm to go off. Now if I could just convince the Open Spaces Assoc to change the timing on theirs.
June 19, 2008 at 6:53 pm #627924
DianeParticipantI live in Belvedere, top of hill above Harbor Isle, and I welcome Spring to open windows and hear the trains; I love hearing the trains, makes me smile
At the Maritime Fest last month, I was chatting with a guy at the Port table, told him where I live, and he asked if I was bothered by the train noise; I was surprised, told him not at all, that I love it; apparently they get a lot of complaints, so they are aware of those who don’t like the train noise, but never hear from those of us who love the train “noise”
I don’t have quite the illustrious history of RonM (very enjoyable reading, thank you), but I did move west from Indiana to California on the train when I was 3 yrs old, so very fond memories
btw, I’ve lived in West Seattle 10 yrs, but have no idea where Pigeon Point is?
June 19, 2008 at 7:02 pm #627925
JimmyGMemberDiane,
When I first moved to WS in 1990 what is now called Pigeon Point wasn’t such a nice area.
It was called “Heroin Hill”. So I always still think of it as that.
June 19, 2008 at 7:20 pm #627926
charlabobParticipantPigeon droppings? Heroin needles? I guess there’s some improvement :-)
I don’t think you should give up on noise abatement (or, as Ken suggests, at least tax abatement.) If there’s a way of ameliorating noise and maintaining safety, that would be great. (Actually, I don’t think anyone should ever give up on fighting for what they want–though we should always be prepared to lose.)
I am a bit sensitive to people who move to cities and try to change their city into bucolic suburbs. Obviously you aren’t one of “them”, funnygirl, so fight on!
June 21, 2008 at 3:17 am #627927
JoBParticipantI happened to be awake last night around 4 AM… and i now know what all the fuss is about when it comes to train noise.
mind you.. i live above the faunteroy ferry and I heard noise continuously for at least 30 minutes…
long blasts, short blasts, followed by more long blasts.. it was pretty bad.
if that is what you are listening to every night at pigeon point.. it’s no wonder you can’t sleep.
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