Elections are just around the corner

[JoB]

rich.. rich.. rich..

i don’t know what you are drinking or smoking but you are having a much better time writing this stuff than i am refuting it…

immigration ??? common sense would tell you that if you want to stop employers from abusing illegal immigrants as slaves.. you crack down on the employers.. not the immigrants.

today.. in Arizona.. you can be stopped anywhere anytime for looking or sounding like you might not be a citizen.. and even if you were born in this country you must produce papers that satisfy the officer who stopped you.

do you speak a second language? speaking it is enough to get you stopped in Arizona.

but hey.. that law should stand because hearts are in the right place in arizona.. they are looking out for those poor illegals… right?

if you thought you could be in any way impacted by that law you would be screaming bloody murder.. so you should think about this…

if an American can legally be required to show papers in Arizona.. what is to stop the same thing here?

teabaggers labeled themselves teabaggers.. but i can’t call them that because i should know better? LOL.. keeping up with shifting sands of urban terminology is a full time task for anyone. listening in to teen conversations on facebook has been very enlightening to me. I am pretty sure somewhere out there is an urban in joke for my name… and my grandkids probably giggle every time they hear it… but that isn’t going to make me demand they call me something else.

I don’t buy the underdog story. Members of the tea party movement are referred to as teabaggers because that’s what they labeled themselves.

Any insinuations or innuendos are simply that.. insinuations or innuendos… mostly generated by the teabaggers themselves.. HEY.. you can’t call me that!

get a grip.

so the teabaggers are cleaning up their image? couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of guys and gals:)

trouble is that i listen to glen beck often enough to know that throwing a white sheet over their heads doesn’t change a thing.

There is a huge difference between mentioning race and inciting racial violence…

Obama is half black… not a racial slur but a statement of fact… and a political reality acknowledged by his competitors.

Obama is also half white.. from one of those radical mothers of my generation ;)

which half do you think i voted for? That black guilt you conjur or solidarity for the son of a sister?

there are a lot of ways to look at the race perspective .. but not too many ways to look at race prejudice.

anger is the abiding principle of the Tea Party movement… embodied by your buddy glen… who judges everyone and everything by the shifting perspective of self interest.. glen’s self interest.. not yours.

take a good look at those bills you mention.. the actual bills… packed with enough corporate graft to make even a republican proud… the stock prices of the companies involved skyrocketed overnight…

not my idea of left leaning legislation… but certainly in Glen’s best interest to distract the members of his pet party from the fact that they are promoting the same corporate interests that created the situation that has them so hopping mad by labeling anything that might help them leftist…

by all means..spend on war. spend to clean up corporate messes. charge it to the future.. just don’t tax that income you wish you were making.

it’s cool to be a fat cat.. and maybe if you play your cards right you can be one too… nice fantasy that PR machine has brought to those gullible enough to buy it… just like that work at home business he was stumping last time i signed on.. or the gold parties that net you just about what you can get at a pawn shop for the same item. That’s a con man you are listening to.

speaking of cons.. lets’ move on to the statement that Franken won his seat due to voter fraud. I read your link but i didn’t see the sentence that stated that those 341 illegal voters in Hennepin county actually voted for Al Franken… just that they voted.

sounds to me like the conservatives in minnesota are about to pull a florida style voter purge in their state and are using this election as an excuse. if i lived there i would be double checking my voter registration about now… someone whose name resembles mine somehow might have done something once that might make someone think my voter registration should be purged.

this, by the way, from the state that didn’t purge me from it’s voter rolls for two years.. in spite of repeated notification.

read the fine print.. what is not said is often more illuminating than what is…

the fine print in the link on Obama and Afghansitan is the date. During his campaign… Obama was very clear that he would be putting more troops into Afghanistan .. just as he is now equally clear that they won’t stay there forever.

The issue isn’t whether Obama is a hawk or not? the issue is whether we should be spending money we don’t have on a war that is unlikely to end… or two wars.. or three.. or twenty .. or however many we are currently fighting.

it is so FAUX news of you to label every other network left:) I keep telling you.. if you want to know what the left has to say.. watch programs like Democracy Now where the left has a voice… not mainstream news. It’s obvious from your continued reiteration of that particular leftist falsehood that you have not yet done so.

perhaps you are being too quick with your google searches… i find that even with wiki i learn a lot more if i follow the links to the references at the bottom of the article and then follow their links as well.

we can agree on one thing. the out of control spending is bankrupting us.. but we don’t agree at all on the cause…

i question the wisdom of gyping baby boomers out of their social security after gyping them out of their pensions as a cost saving measure.. after all.. we will still have to pay to feed, clothe, house and provide medical treatment for the indigent… and baby boomers will become indigent eventually without any income.

the alternate solution is to create more jobs so that people can work and pay taxes so we can afford to keep the promises made to our citizens..

radical concept.. right?

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[DP]

We need more conservatives on this forum, folks. Otherwise it’s going to get pretty boring in here. (Talk about echo chambers . . . sheesh!)

OK, West Seattle is strongly liberal, so the political balance is always gonna be tilted in that direction. Great! Still, we need a hard core of politicos who can represent the OTHER SIDE side in a principled way, otherwise, what the hell are we even doing here?

I feel some personal (if not political) sympathy for HMCRich, because he’s been carrying the ball pretty much on his own, along with maybe one or two other random folks. Frankly, if I were him, I would be doing the same thing he’s doing: a little arguing and a lot of baiting.

To get other principled conservatives (like HMCRich) on this site, we have to be as respectful as possible with them. Of course we’re going to refute their positions—as forcefully as we can. But we’ve got to stick to the high road while doing that. Otherwise, they’ll stay in their corner, and we’ll stay in ours, and nothing will get done.

(Rich, have you got a couple friends you could send over here? We need polite, thoughtful right-wing commentators who either come from the West Seattle area or are interested in West Seattle issues.)

In the meantime, can we all start talking a bit more about the present and future, and less about the past? As a liberal, I personally don’t have many happy memories of the Bush era, and I’m trying to leave that behind . . .

Thanks for reading.

–David

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[JoB]

DP..

i can personally vouch for HMC Rich as a delightfully entertaining human being and a caring person…

there are other conservatives of various stripes that post here on the forum… I can’t vouch for them as i haven’t met them yet.. but i am willing to bet they are nice guys and gals too.

oh.. and that goes for libs too ;->

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

if you are counting on this

“the last time a Democrat President and a Republican Congress worked together, we had a budget surplus”

to restore employment.. you need to think again

this is why it won’t work this time…

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/UEMPMED

the idiots nearly crashed not only our economy but that of the entire world.

we will have to spend to pull out of this.. and it is clear that war spending is not creating enough jobs to pull us out this time.

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[c@lbob]

I just heard a pretty illustrative reason for why tolerating “good” conservatives is a bad idea.

The US Chamber of Commerce has spent over $150 M is anti-Obama activities since he took office. That’s $3M a week. Obama has gotten some things accomplised, to his credit, but even those wins have been pilloried and minimized by the Chamber. And the losses, or wins for the Chamber; no energy bill, no card check, no cap and trade, are demoralizing to the Democratic base.

Couple that with Glen Beck, Sean Hannity and the other loons of the right wing echo chamber, and what you have is a lot of people calling Obama a socialist, white hating, non-American who are completely fired up and ready to vote pitted against timid centrist Democrats looking for where the center is.

Take a look at Ben Nelson, Blanch Lincoln, Evan Bayh and Mary Landrieu if you want to know the center in that equation.

Worrying about the feelings of those who think that array of folks are, at best, too liberal is a fool’s errand, IMHO.

If you are looking for righties, I and direct you a site right here in Seattle — Sound Politics. Go on over there to reason with them, then tell us of the welcoming you receive.

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[JoB]

c@lbob..

Good people are not always reasonable..

that doesn’t make them bad people

just unreasonable

and on that you will get no argument from me…

current republican strategy is not based on reason.. it’s based on emotion… and not one of the better emotions at that… hate and anger may win them an election but it pales as a long term strategy.

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[c@lbob]

Good people don’t write off whole classifications of people as unworthy based on their immigration statuses, racial backgrounds, or economic classes.

Good people don’t make up lies, or repeat them, about the known scientific realities of global climate change and evolution.

Good people don’t rally behind corporations that murder their workers.

Thus my attitude about “good” “conservatives” – they are neither, IMHO.

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[JanS]

wow, Bob. Could you maybe just give us a straightforward answer as to how you really feel, instead of this wishy washy stuff? ;-)

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[charlabob]

Bob is a little jaded — he grew up in California and they didn’t have rational conservatives. He didn’t believe in William Weld or Ed Brooke until I showed him their speeches. Often he still thinks I made them up. :-)

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[JanS]

hehehe…glad to see I’m not the only one up late on here…

jaded? never !

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[HMC Rich]

Awww JoB, you know I love you (and hubby).

Oh Bob, why such sour grapes? How about Obama’s poll numbers. They stink. Unfortunately for the opposition, he has been successful in certain policies, and lately to the chagrin of the Democratic congressmen and senators who are being thrown under the bus in this next election by the administration. Your party is in big trouble with the Independents these days.

Thanks DP. The problem is, most of the good Republicans moved out of the area or are not willing to speak up. But there are a few. I will see what I can do.

Vote for who you think will do the best job.

You know, Glenn Beck does a Friday segment about the founders of our country. It is interesting because he brings the discussion to the forefront. The two specials on forgotten people of color in our history was a bit eye opening.

You can bash him if you want. He doesn’t care.

He does not want your government to be involved in every aspect of your life. Is that so bad?

Ask yourself. How much government is too much? Too many times Republicans are painted as wanting anarchy or Greedy God Dictating Rulers. Not true but some of you do not want to believe that. For every loony on the left there is a loony on the right.

You see, in the last year I have seen a few things which have dismayed me as a citizen.

First, Bills passed in Congress which are over 2,000 pages long which our representatives did not read but voted on. They are called bi=partisan at times but they are not.

I saw a stimulus package with pork oozing out and more bills with more pork.

I see no budget coming from congress. Americans are not stupid. When the federal government is borrowing 41 cents on every dollar, you know there is a big problem. Yes it was bad when W did it. Why is it good now?

We will be forced to buy insurance from a “private” company and the federal government will fine me if I do not! That is unconstitutional.

I see a Wall Street Financial Bill passed which allows the Federal Government to terminate a business if it even thinks it is having hardship. Isn’t that Tyranny? When governments control major industries, doesn’t that ring of socialism a bit, at worst fascism. With all of the unelected czars making policy, I see abuses coming on. Yes, Bush had czars too. Let’s get rid of these unelected policy makers.

I see bills coming up on reeling in the internet and the ability of people to speak out.

I see Mrs. Pelosi’s “most ethical congress” not being such and the word transparency is non existent. Mr. Rangel is on the hot seat for now. 11 percent approval rating for congress!!! Not good.

We witnessed a horrific Natural Disaster which pitted Federal vs State vs Private Industry. I saw the Federal Government drag its feet concerning action that Congress had passed in the 90’s to react to horrific oil spills. I saw corporate arrogance and finger pointing. I also saw birds covered in oil which died.

I see the Federal Government and the State of Arizona clashing. No, we don’t want people wrongly accused or accosted. But it is the Presidents and Federal Governments job to protect the citizens of the United States. Obama and all since Reagan have not done a good job. What part of illegal do people not understand. Yes, arrest the people who employ illegals. Start the card check system for guest aliens. Do something instead of fighting it out in court.

I see a press which is being shown to collude with the ideology of the President or his cabinet. For the latest curiosity Check out JournOlist. Some guy named Ackerman advocated calling Fred Barnes and other conservatives racist to try to lessen the heat from Liberation Theologist Reverend Wright. I saw email hoping Rush Limbaugh would have a heart attack and writhe in pain. This from the Beltway press. We need a free press to keep the government in line. They should not be friends.

I see petty comparisons about Obama golfing but W took more time off than Obama. Really!!! Petty.

I see racism becoming a huge obstacle in common sense discourse. This Shirley Sherrill incident is bad. Breitbart (stupidly) started the ball rolling on her statement about 25 years ago. Fox showed the clip after the fact of her firing. Her firing on the rumor that Glenn Beck was going to show it. The Federal Government cast this woman aside before any of the facts were corroborated. OReilly damned her at first. He later admitted he was wrong. Beck said the ADministration was wrong and didn’t run with it because of context. You may hate Beck but when he runs a soundbite it is usually from the persons own mouth. The aha mentality in Washington is beyond ridiculous. Rumor causing firings?

I see fear and outright hate for the TEA Party. I see the NAACP attacking and getting attacked.

We have to dial it back and calm down. These issues are volatile so it is not so easy.

I know my progressive friends blame every woe on the Republicans but that just isn’t true. It is partially true. If the last administration and congresses had actually not overspent and not gone to war in Iraq, Barack Obama probably would not have been elected. The mood of the country would not have been quite as polarized. Hillary or McCain would have been elected.

As it is, we are moving towards a time where we will not be able to pay off our debts, pay our services, pay our retirement, pay our disabilities, pay our medical bills.

We are going bankrupt, and if this country goes down (financially) it will take the rest of the world with it.

So I ask again, how much control do you want to give the Federal Government? And yes JoB, common sense rules and regulations should be put on the financial institutions, businesses, corporations and government. Let business make money and pay taxes. What a concept.

Anyway, we still are all equal in one area. If you are registered to vote, then you can vote. This is where we do the most good (and damage) it would seem. I miss going to the polling stations. Write in is great but sometimes it was good to go somewhere. If I pass away, I will let my wife vote for me. No, I won’t. She would vote Democrat. :( And she is not even a citizen! Although she does kind of like Beck. And Twilight. What is it with teenage girls and 40 year old moms?

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[JoB]

HMC Rich…

“vote for who you think will do the best job”

small businesses are still the fastest growing employers in the United States…

so who will republicans support?

http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1996-22-TARP-Supporters-Vote-Against-the-Small-Business-Lending-Fund

Republicans .. eager to give big business any handout.. but not so eager to support small businesses…

unfortunately.. this vote is of a piece with too many others…

If you aren’t one of the top 1% earners in the United States.. voting republican isn’t going to get you anything you want.

It isn’t even going to get you what you need.

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[JoB]

btw…

i just couldn’t resist such ripe bait…

Glen Beck’s friday night pieces on the founders would be more inspiring if he stuck to the truth.

next friday.. listen to his special and then look up what the founder he talked about actually wrote about the subject.

Glen Beck is an entertainer at best and a con man at worst.. if you are getting your information from him.. you are getting bad information.

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[JoB]

c@lbob…

as a party.. i couldn’t agree with you more.

as individuals.. too many are deluded… victims of the great American con.

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[c@lbob]

Delusional people have to live free too, I suppose, unless we’re speaking of John Hinkley or Terry McVeigh; but when the deluded start to form into populist movements, they need to be stopped.

There is a concerted effort by the US Chamber of Commerce, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc. to deform information 24 hours a day.

Those right wing instutions do not care about the fate of millions and millions of people just like me. If corporations take their tax cuts and move operations to India or China, that okey dokey with the Chamber, Fox, Limbaugh, et al. Then, when unemployment gets so bad that there is little prospect that people who exhaust their benefits will get a job anytime soon, and are on the path to ending up living in a card board boxes, they (me and mine) are called lazy.

You are either with me or with them, and the positions are black and white. If you vote for, let’s say, Dino Rossi; you are taking sides with the BIAW and against me. I don’t care if you think he speaks well, presents ideas clearly, got a raw deal in 2004. In particular, I don’t want his budget balancing on my back and those like me. Rossi is the BIAW candidate. That’s bad for me. He’s going to be for unrestricted growth throughout the state and against environmental protections; for keeping a perfectly nonsensical tax structure and against reform.

Whether the guy who runs the local auto shop is a “good person” or not, if he buys his parts from the person who stole my Ford, its irrelevant. He shouldn’t be allowed to further activities that deprive me of a thing I need.

And those that recommend that shop to others because it is so cheap to get your car fixed are fools.

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[DP]

c@lbob, you go too far. What do you mean by “tolerating good conservatives is a bad idea”?

What’s your suggestion? —That we refuse to address any of their issues? That we ban Republicans as a political party?

Talk about “writing off whole classifications of people as unworthy” . . .

Consider the practical implications of your words, my friend.

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[c@lbob]

I’ve been living through 40 plus years of the results of tolerating “good” conservative ideas, beginning with Goveror Ronald Reagan of California in 1966. That tin god of good conservatives set the state on the course to being the basket case it is today. After that triumph, he did the same for the rest of the United States.

All the while, Democrats have been dreaming of appeasing the unrelenting greed of those who would elect politicians like Reagan. The result has been a Frankenstein monster factory assembly line of Reagan facsimilies, models that make Ronnie seem like a Model T in comparison.

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[Mark32]

Thanks Rich, you say it so much better then most.

I get so tired of the people on both sides that only vote for one party and consider the other side duped or worse.

We’ve gotten ourselves in this mess by asking our government to provide us with more than we can afford. That goes for Social programs and corporate tax cuts.

What I would like is a financially conservative government that sets up a payment plan that will eliminate the debt over the next 20 years. This will likely require real spending cuts, raising some taxes and the elimination of many federal programs.

So with elections just around the corner I ask everyone, will you vote for one party or open your eyes to “the other side”? Maybe even vote for just one member of the other party.

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[JanS]

Mark32…specifically, where would you make the spending cuts, what federal programs would you eliminate?

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[JoB]

Mark32..

“What I would like is a financially conservative government that sets up a payment plan that will eliminate the debt over the next 20 years. “

this might sound familiar because it is exactly what Clinton did with the assistance of Al Gore. Do you remember the audit Al did on govt agencies and the resulting savings?

unfortunately.. we elected the guy everyone wanted to have beer with and made fun of the guy who was into saving our collective dollar.

The guy you wanted to have beer with started a very expensive war and then topped that off with pulling the teeth of government oversight on the financial sector.

All his buds made out big time… but they nearly killed the goose that lays the golden eggs in the process. Even Greenspan didn’t think they were that stupid and greedy.. but there you go.

if you want real fiscal conservatism.. elect a democrat. If they can.. they will bring the deficit down by putting actual Americans to work. Novel idea, huh.

The deficit skyrockets during republican administrations. They may cut social spending but they sure up the ante on corporate welfare while the public picks up the check for their mistakes:(

This democratic president is between a rock and hard place. If he doesn’t spend the economy takes a permanent nose dive. If he does, the deficit takes a temporary beating.

Republicans shouldn’t gloat over the situation they created…

unless of course they are one of those 1% whose personal wealth has skyrocketed during the economic downturn that nearly put the rest of us under…

it’s far more likely that those doing the chest beating and gloating have been the victims of the very system they want to put back in power.

but hey.. it sure would be fun having a beer with a babe like Sarah.

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[c@lbob]

I’m gonna help Mark32 out here, don’t say I don’t reach out to “conservatives”.

Here’s how we cans save trillions of dollars over the next decade, cut the defense department by 75%. Leave troops deployed everywhere possible within that limit.

Nationalize all the petroleum production within the sovereign territories of the United States, and declare it a national defense reserve.

We’d still be this biggest military power on the planet. Make the sole mission of the military the protection of those same US sovereign territories and leave the middle east to whoever wants to screw with it.

Cutting the military is one Ron Paul idea I can line up behind, he’s not nearly as far reaching as I am, but it’s a start.

But what about all those unnecessary soldiers and sailor and airmen that will come home, you ask? Why let’s put them to work in the domestic healthcare industry – research, public health, doctors, nurses, etc. Retrain those young minds for some productive purpose.

We are gonna need to get off the oil teat, as well, so battery production, research and deployment will be a big receptor of them. Development of tide, wind, solar — maybe even nuclear, if the waste problem can be solved.

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[c@lbob]

Want some more? Let’s repeal every tax cut implemented since 1981, put the tax rate back to what it was then.

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[DP]

Now I can get behind you, c@lbob.

You’re advocating for concrete policies . . . all of which I happen to agree with.

—David

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[c@lbob]

For those of you in favor of “reasonable” Republican pols in state and local government, consider:’

(A)

In November 2005, King County GOP Vice Chairman Lori Sotelo was dead wrong in her claim that voter registration addresses were not those of legitimate residences. She clearly violated RCW 29A.08.810 when she signed the affidavit that asserted:

” I,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of Washington that I am a registered voter in the State of Washington and that I hereby challenge the voter registration of:

<< registered voter >>

I have personal knowledge and belief that this person is not qualified to vote or does not reside at the address given on his or her voter registration record, as evidenced below. I have exercised due diligence to personally verify the evidence presented.”

The only evidence Sotelo presented was the fact that the addresses she challenged were in areas of Seattle that housed, predominantly, commercial buildings. She, nor any of the King County Repulicans, had actually walked the streets and knocked on doors to verify the theory reached by comparing registered addresses to city maps.

A day after the Republicans lost their challenges to ballots cast Nov. 8, the King County prosecutor Norm Maleng (Republican) said he would not be charging Sotelo with anything. He said his office had investigated the matter and found no intent by Sotelo to make false statements.

(B)

In March 2010 Republican Attorney General joined with 11 other State AGs to file a frivilous challenge to the historic, hard foughy and just passed Health Care Legislation. He had and has absolutely no legal leg to stand on.

When Democrats give up and vote for Republicans, that is what they get. Blatant thumbs in the eye to Democratic voters.

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[miws]

“Republicans .. eager to give big business any handout.. but not so eager to support small businesses…”

….while at the same time, proclaiming VERY LOUDLY how the Democrats hate small business….

Mike

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