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February 6, 2011 at 4:25 am #716004
BonnieParticipantJosie, good advice!
February 6, 2011 at 4:42 am #716005
GenHillOneParticipantYou nailed it, josie! Maybe we could get those posted in restaurants around town :)
February 6, 2011 at 5:12 am #716006
35this35mphParticipantI personally can’t believe that people would allow their kids to poop in the yard. Especially with all the coyotes and rabid owls!
February 6, 2011 at 5:37 am #716007
35this35mphParticipantAnd chupacabras.
February 6, 2011 at 6:25 am #716008
JoBParticipantFebruary 6, 2011 at 8:00 pm #716009
sam-cParticipantthis thread makes me laugh, in a good way.
(that ad is hilarious!)
when I ask my son to stop whining, he starts talking like a robot. but, if a 2 yr old is behaving out in public, they still have personality, they don’t have to be robots.
Josie’s list is good. to expand.. people have mentioned that some places are more kid friendly than others. but sometimes I feel like consistency is key too. whether you’re having brunch at Spring Hill or waiting for yummy asada mulitas at the WC taco truck, you’ve got to remind the kid ‘please keep your voice down, other people are trying to enjoy their meal.’
and to expand on the list and what beachdrivegirl said: positive reinforcement goes a long way. a few weeks ago, the owner of a furniture store in Belltown gave our son a cool wind up robot / pencil sharpener (robots again!) because he was so well behaved. he still talks about it. if someone compliments your child’s behavior, make a big deal about it. (though I’m not saying they should get prizes for good behavior all the time).
JoB and Josie are right, you have to work at it, and remove child from the premises if necessary. a poor guy once thought he was going to get our great parking spot, but no, we were just getting into the car to take a break.
some outbursts are a surprise but if nothing is done about it, I would suggest saying something to the waitress, rather than the parent.
February 6, 2011 at 9:36 pm #716010
ClawGirlMemberAs the parent of 6 & 8 year olds, I agree that positive remarks from strangers go a long way to reinforce my kids’ behavior in restaurants and in public. We have received them many times, and our kids glow when they hear it. We also have well-defined expectations for our kids – and they know that dining out is a privilege, not a right. From the time they were very young, if our kids misbehaved or screamed in a restaurant, one of us immediately took them outside to the sidewalk (away from the restaurant) for a time out, and stayed with them until they’d calmed down. If the bad behavior continued after they’d been brought back in, we got the check and went home. If our food hadn’t yet arrived, one of us took the kids out while the other one had the waiter box the food to go. We’ve done that several times, and trust me the kids learn really fast! I know temper tantrums happen with all kids, and often the parents can’t do anything about it. But temper tantrums aside, I honestly believe that a lot of the parents in my generation think their kids can do no wrong, and actually encourage the obnoxious behavior as a way to get attention. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been dining out to have my dinner disrupted by someone’s little darlings who are running around the restaurant, or even trying to climb up on our table. The parents often gaze at them adoringly. I have occasionally said something to the parents, but often they get angry or defensive. No boundaries, no consequences, and they can do no wrong….Look out for these kids as teenagers!
February 7, 2011 at 3:11 am #716011
cclarueMemberClawgirl, you hit it dead on with the some of the people think their kids can do no wrong. It amazes me and scares me at the same time! Because what will happen when they are teenagers? Kids need and want boundaries. Parents are not doing the kids any favors when they allow them to run amuck without regard to other people. My job as a parent is to teach my kids how to make it in this world and disregard for other people is not ok at 2 or at 10 or at 20.
February 7, 2011 at 11:17 pm #716012
AlParticipantWhile spouse and I don’t have kids by choice, almost all our good friends do. We don’t dislike them, just don’t want to take ’em home. The children of our friends, almost all, are a joy to be around and we make time to do things with them, even if it involves at times, a restaurant! Judiciously chosen, a time frame well established and rules followed have created kids who are cool to hang out with; similar to rules people mentioned above.
I had an interesting experience at a local coffee house this weekend with children of, sort of, the opposite bent. While talking with a friend at said coffee house, table with at least three adults and, I think 3-4 kids (I couldn’t keep track), were at the other end. It all started well and good. However, by the end of the hour three of the kids had progressed to full-out-sprinting across the place, oblivious to people carring hot drinks and other objects that could do damage. They also appropriated the entire couch area, using the couch to jump on, use as a balance beam (yes, they were walking/running across the back of it) and yelling almost the whole time. The parents were oblivious to all this. Why is that? Did they not know how obnoxious it was? It seemed incredible that one of their progeny racing across a coffee shop would not at least catch an eye…especially as customers were trying to enter in and order drinks/food. Just amazing. It didn’t ruin my morning, I was more astounded by the lack of “limits” set by the parents, even allowing for the causual nature of a coffee shop.
February 8, 2011 at 12:08 am #716013
hoffanimalParticipantRarelyever, get over yourself and your perfectly raised child. Not everyone, no mattter how much they know about child-rearing or how hard they try at it, has control over every situation.
“but if I see you in public with your offspring and you are not in control of the situation, you are only a small step short of a child abuser in my eyes. If you’re unsure about how to raise a happy and contented child, there’s plenty of information out there you can read up on. Or talk to your pediatrician. Or seek advise from a parent whose kids seem to be well-adjusted.”
Thankfully my kids are well-adjusted even if I don’t always have control in every situation – thank god! I seem to have lost my happy and contented meter. Can I borrow yours to check in on things this evening to make sure I am doing everyhting right?
February 8, 2011 at 5:17 am #716014
NTParticipantI always feel my stomach clenching when I read the children in public places rants.
1) Yes, children can behave terribly at any time without any sort of rational reason and sometimes without warning
2) Yes, it’s up to the parents to put the kibosh on unacceptable behavior and those who don’t are worthy of a dirty look
3) I used to curl my lip at folks who brought their kids out in public (especially those I had to wait on in my various restaurant jobs) … then I had kids
4) Josie’s comments and list are awesome and employed by *many* families
5) The folks who are reading this thread and feel the need to ‘stick up’ for families who choose to eat out are soooooooooooo not the folks who’s kids are running amok in restaurants. Those folks are too oblivious to have any sort of understanding/awareness/self-reflection about how they are parenting.
6) Making snide comments about people who choose to have kids (breeders??? really??) seems kind of shallow and short-sighted. Anyone can choose to have kids or not, however only those with children were childless at one time and can honestly claim to know what it’s like on both sides of the fence.
February 8, 2011 at 7:20 am #716015
redblackParticipantNT: if you have kids, are you not breeding? are you somehow not propagating the human race – whether or not you see it as some kind of calling? it seems to me that it’s a function that comes naturally to most people, and without a lot of thought. “well, of course i’m going to have children!” a lot of people go so far as to plan how many children they’ll have.
the decision to not have kids isn’t shallow or short-sighted at all. in fact, it’s exactly the opposite. i’ve seen that side of the fence, i’m not interested, and i’m glad i made the choice not to make a little carbon copy of myself.
for me, the costs seem to outweigh the benefits, and i’m quite happy having freedoms that my breeder friends don’t have.
February 8, 2011 at 8:38 am #716016
NTParticipantredblack –
If you meant ‘breeder’ to be simply a factual comment and I mistakenly imbued it with a negative connotation, I apologize. Was I in error? It seems a provocative word to me but there are a lot of thinly-veiled, self satisfied comments about choosing not to have kids on this thread and I could very easily have taken offense when I shouldn’t have.
That said, I very clearly said that such *comments* are shallow and short-sighted NOT the decision to remain childless itself, which I think is great. Each person does what works best for them: I chose to have kids, I think it’s great, you chose not to, you think that’s great. No harm no foul.
Let me also assure you that seeing the other side of the fence and living it are two completely different things. I’m not trying to convince you to have kids or saying that you would make a different choice at all (in fact, if I told you about my night in great detail, you would probably run screaming – or laughing – all the way to the hills!!). And having kids is definitely not about having carbon copies of yourself … or if that’s someone’s reasoning, the joke will be on them for sure.
I miss a lot of the freedoms my childless friends have, but, as they always say, I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
February 8, 2011 at 8:55 am #716017
HMC RichParticipantGlad you didn’t have kids Redblack….That didn’t come out right.
Once you have kids, the light comes on in certain situations. The been there, done that thought crosses their minds.
My son acts up in stores and restaurants. I am a strict parent but I can only teach …. every hour… every day… and ……..eventually………it ……………… might ………sink………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..in.
I saw one of my son’s former co-op classmates having a meltdown at Target the other day. I knew she was trying to leave as fast as possible. The child was beyond the point of reason. I saw the “looks” of dissapproving people and I say to you. Oh well. If you decided to not have kids, then you probably made the right decision.
Most parents want their kids to behave in public. I wish we could pop them out and they would be fully functional. But no. We are not Wildebeast.
To non kid people I say, sorry but we are doing our best and sometimes it just isn’t good enough, but at least you get to leave the incident eventually.
And remember most of you were snot nosed, disease spreading, selfish, social misfits and outcasts early in your life. Try to remember that once you were a child also. I’m not saying you didn’t behave, but you also had to be taught how to be a drone in public.
February 8, 2011 at 2:18 pm #716018
redblackParticipantdon’t get me wrong, rich. i like children.
but only if they’re properly cooked.
(with thanks to w.c. fields.)
February 8, 2011 at 3:21 pm #716019
miwsParticipantO/T:
Rich, I don’t know if it was intentional, but the juxtaposition of your post with ad for Westside, (at least on my browser) gave me a chuckle!
Mike
February 8, 2011 at 5:33 pm #716020
cclarueMemberWell behaved does not equal drone it equals respect.
February 9, 2011 at 4:19 am #716021
CaitParticipantOK, well, if I’m supposed to kindly tolerate ill behaved children interrupting my meal, the next time I’m out I’m going to scream at the top of my lungs and run past your table 15 times at full speed.
Am I capable of being more respectful? Yes. And so are your kids. Believe that they’re capable of it and treat them accordingly and they will ACT accordingly.
February 9, 2011 at 5:15 am #716022
AlkiRagdollParticipantI am happy to see this thread. It shows me that my frustration with kids may have been misplaced. In the past, my motto has been – people under the age of 16 should not be seen(or heard) in public. Harsh — yes. But well founded. About 2 yrs ago, I actually tripped over a rugrat and injured myself (and the 3 yr old kid) walking in a restaurant where I didnt see the kid. I’ve had kids “accidently” spill stuff on me (rugrats and teens) and more than my share of screaming kids interrupt a dinner, a movie, and numerous flights.
For those that believe that when I go to a public place I should expect others to annoy me… they better expect people like me to then annoy them back. It works both ways. Instead of me trying to discipline your kid(s) so that I can have peace, now I will try to discipline you parents. When the kids are good, I will complement the kids and the parents (never done that other than on a flight before, but will adopt that policy in restaurants)… HOWEVER, when they are not behaving, please know that I will be in the face of the parents in the future.
I will never forget connecting through the Salt Lake airport and a lady traveling alone with her 2 or 3 yr old — the kid had a meltdown and took off all his cloths. Nothing the mother could do as everytime she tried to discipline him or put his cloths back on, he ran and ripped them off. She was trying to manage him and hang on to her bags. I felt very sorry for this woman… it was evident she was trying everything in her powers to get the situation under control and she moved as far away as she could from others because of his meltdown.
I am sorry sitting there and doing nothing is just that – doing nothing and just plain lazy discipline. At least that lady tried to get the screaming kid away from people. You should do the same. Get up and go outside with YOUR screamer.
As a child of immigrants, I was taught at an early age the difference between an indoor voice and an outdoor voice AND that bad behavior would not be tolerated. If we were lucky to go out to dinner, if we misbehaved in any way, there were swift ramifications. Whoever commented about Italians — clearly doesnt know that in Italy, kids play outside, but NEVER INSIDE in a public place. Indoors requires behavior like attending catholic church or you dont go.
February 9, 2011 at 6:33 am #716023
cclarueMemberI am curious as to how/why the change came about from the past when kids were to be seen and not heard to this current oh he’s just a child behaving like a child. He’s expressing himself type culture?? Is it the shift in the family unit? More divorce ? Less church?Progress? I am curious to know what others think. I am 40. My parents divorced when I was 2. Mom remarried when I was 5, divorced again at 13. I wasn’t allowed to misbehave in public and I didn’t. I remember even thinking ooh there are elderly people around I better really be on my best behavior..As a teenager I was so mouthy to my mom but not if grandma was visiting. I only had 2 spankings my entire childhood so it’s not like I was beaten into submission. There was just an expectation of respect. Period. In turn my kids have the same set of expectations, if you act right you are allowed certain things if you don’t you aren’t . They are school age now but I don’t ever recall having to remove them from a restaraunt because they knew better than to act up in public. I do recall flicking my oldest in target once for starting to act out probably over a toy or something anda woman giving me a dirty look. I didn’t say anything to her but I wanted to tell her look ma’am I can harmlessly flick my child if I choose and she can be taught right from wrong by me or I can let her do whatever her little heart desires and she will be your(societys) problem later. Back to the question how/why the shift to letting kids act however they please?
February 9, 2011 at 6:57 am #716024
datamuseParticipantcclarue, it’s actually pretty recent…like 19th century recent. The idea of childhood as this separate phase of life that ought to be protected and indulged is a pretty new idea, human-history-wise.
And I have no particular objection to that, since prior to, hangings were considered appropriate family entertainment, just for instance.
On the other hand, it seems like there’s gotta be a happy medium between perfect little angel (which no one with any experience of children could reasonably expect) and running amok. I suspect that most people who care enough to comment on this thread are somewhere in that middle ground.
February 9, 2011 at 8:21 am #716025
HMC RichParticipantRedblack. With Tabasco or Worchestershire Sauce? For dessert sauteed puppy tails with chocolate syrup? The presentation would be a bit tricky.
February 9, 2011 at 2:53 pm #716026
redblackParticipantgeez, rich, ya’ hillbilly. why don’t you just slather them in ketchup?
a red wine reduction sounds nice. shallots, taragon…
February 9, 2011 at 3:56 pm #716027
nuniMemberalmost got in to an altercation at Rocksport one time because this lady had like 6 of her kids in there and they were just running around, making tons of noise, touching everything, just being overall annoying and unruly. Needless to say I gave her the death glare, except that she caught me haha. Her drunk ass goes “don’t worry, I’m watching them”, which obviously she was not. This went on the entire time we were there, while she was entertaining some other drunk guy at her table. Not once did she even glance up to see what her brats were up to. I couldn’t help but make more comments like “oh don’t worry guys, she’s watching them” and made sure to say it loud enough so she could hear. Needless to say, on our way out of the restaurant she got up in my face and was like ” you need to mind your own business!” to which I replied “you need to watch your kids” and then very calmly walked out.
February 9, 2011 at 7:46 pm #716028
HSGParticipantWarning the post below contains massive generalizations.
cclaru, I think it all started with the Baby Boomers. As a generation Baby Boomers had more advantages than any previous generation, coupled with societal changes that encouraged what my husband refers to as “the radius of one.” It resulted in a “I can do no wrong attitude” coupled with a cult of youth that encouraged the rejection of all antiquated notions like children should be seen and not heard.
When the the Boomers had kids, many were unable to separate what was best for their children from what was most enjoyable or fulfilling for them. They were used to getting their way without much effort or acrifice. As a result their kids grew up with lax rules, “Rules are for the man, it much more fun to be my kids’ friend,” and inordinate amounts of praise, “You’re so amazing (because I am so amazing).”
Now we have the Baby Boomers’ kids raising kids. They didn’t grow up with strong parental examples to emulate so they cast about for advice from the million and one conflicting parenting manuals that have popped up in the last decade. They don’t know how to discpline consistently, because they fear they are harming their kids’ self-esteem when they say no or aren’t exclusively seeing the good in their kids. They become defensive when someone points out their kids aren’t perfect, because they suffer from low self-esteem. They didn’t have the kind of structure as kids that gives one confidence, so they constantly second guess their choices. Paradoxically, many suffer from bravado. They don’t want to betray the image of perfection thrust upon them by the unearned praise they received as a child.
I find that the people I encounter who don’t react immediately when their kids act out in public are basically the same as the guy who feels it’s okay to drop the f-bomb when watching a game regardless of who’s around, or the woman who thinks everyone is okay listening to her talk loudly on a cell phone on a crowded bus. I always assume they were raised to believe that they are so special that their needs have total supremacy over societal norms, customs, or courtesy. Likewise, I’ve noticed they are the first to get upset when anyone acts in a way that infringes upon “their rights.” Picture the woman on her cell phone sitting next to the drunk guy, sitting next to the parent with rowdy kids, it is hilarious.
Full disclosure: I am a mother with Baby Boomer parents and am not immune to some of the issues I described above. I try to be courtious and tolerant, but fully admit I stumble on occasion. If my kid is being obnoxious in public and I don’t appear to be remedying the situation, please let me and my daughter know we are annoying you. It will do both of us good, and I promise I’ll try not to get snarky with you. Likewise, if she is just walking back from the restroom and is moving quicker than you would, don’t assume she is running around unattended. In return I’ll remind her to watch where she is going if I see her invading someone else’s space. Deal?
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