Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Bertha
- This topic is empty.
-
AuthorPosts
-
February 12, 2014 at 10:29 am #610434
JanSParticipantFebruary 12, 2014 at 11:12 am #804301
metrognomeParticipanthmmm … let’s see. A post by an unidentified person providing an analysis by an unidentified attorney whose area of expertise is also unidentified. The bottom line of this ‘analysis’ is that one or more of several things *may* happen. And the author of the post doesn’t really identify what was provided by the lawyer and what flows from the poster’s own hand. I’m guessing the numbered paragraphs are supposedly from the attorney while the subsequent commentary is by the poster, but it’s really hard to tell.
One piece of information that is glaringly absent is the fact that this is a design-build contract, which is very different than a standard construction contract.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Contents/Item/Display/152
As noted in the link below, the STP bid included completing the project nearly a year ahead of what WSDOT estimated in the RFP.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/35FAE5C0-C79F-496D-9354-DEC2E4E98819/0/SR99BoredTunnel_STP.pdf
February 12, 2014 at 6:04 pm #804302
mark47nParticipantA few other items that relate to equipment purchased. Who owns the equipment? Is the repair a warranty item and, as this is custom equipment, is there a warranty?
I read in the paper the other day that they had issues with this seal during testing of Bertha in Osaka but then “resolved it” and shipped. Is this a similar failure?
Also, design-build or not, since it sounds like this is a “hard money job”, in construction pricing parlance, unless overages are specifically addressed, which I assume they are, based on the 1.5% contingency mentioned in the WSDOT link (I don’t actually have the contract and I’m speculating based on experience as a Project Manager)STP can technically be held responsible for overages over the contingency amount and, if STP can’t complete the project, the bond holder will be liable and will them go after the assets of STP, which is a shell created specifically for this project. Again, this is all speculation.
I find this whole thing to be a bloody Greek Tragedy and can’t help but sigh every time I read about a new delay. One only has to look as far as Boston to see how a tunnel project can get out of hand.
February 12, 2014 at 6:35 pm #804303
wakefloodParticipantLet’s keep our undies unbundled, kids. Metrognome’s right, this is a design/build contract and that is a different beast than most.
There’s risk contingencies for foreseeable issues like this, not to mention contractual processes to address resolution.
Is this a PITA? Sure. Is it going to turn into the Big Dig? As someone who was around that project in its later stages and knows some of the history of it, um…no. It won’t get that out of hand.
But, as always, for those of you so inclined, feel free to return to the wringing of hands and knashing of teeth at your leisure.
February 12, 2014 at 6:37 pm #804304
KBearParticipantOne only has to look as far as Boston to see a much larger and more complex project that really has little to do with what’s going on in Seattle.
February 12, 2014 at 6:46 pm #804305
mark47nParticipantActually, I wasn’t comparing the Big Dig to the 99 tunnel as a comparable project so much as how a project can get out of hand. And if you think this isn’t a complex project think again. Tunneling is always a complex project. It just become a difference in scale. Especially below a city full of underground utilities.
Also, a Design/Build contract isn’t that different . It simply rolls the design into the contract rather than having it separate. It can, however, shift more of the responsibility onto the contractor. STP can’t come back and blame the city if they didn’t do their due diligence.
February 12, 2014 at 7:06 pm #804306
KBearParticipantMark, I did not say our tunnel project was not complex. Of course it is. I’m just tired of the knee-jerk comparisons to Big Dig–“Oh, a tunneling project went badly!”–while ignoring the completely different scope and circumstances of the two projects.
February 12, 2014 at 7:37 pm #804307
JanSParticipantwell, it got y’all talking about it. Bertha will or will not happen at this point. I just find it strange that it takes so little to “break” this machine.
At this point I am neither for or against it. It will be what it will be, and frankly, you and I have no control over it. We’ve had strikes, pipes, other delays, some investigating, etc. Will it truly do us any good in the long run? That remains to be seen. I get the people who are saying “I told you so”. I also get (sort of) the people who are saying “simmer down”, it ain’t no big deal (yet). If it takes a couple of months to figure it out and fix it (big if), when it reaches the viaduct this summer, the viaduct will shut down. School will be out, tourists will be here, traffic (esp. from West Seattle) will be a mess(more than it is now).So, yes, we need to be concerned, we need to pay attention. And we need to hold those who are accountable (read bottom line), accountable.
Talk on – I’m goin’ out for a burger :)
February 12, 2014 at 8:16 pm #804308
mark47nParticipantFair enough, KBear. All I know for sure is that, being less than 10% into the tunnel and to be projecting to burn through a large portion of the contingency with the well casing delays and the damaged equipment, the managers for STP and Seattle must be puckering.
As to your comment, Jan, the tunnel is happening. No doubt about that. Bertha will be repaired by Hitachi – the manufacturer – and will likely bill STP for a portion, if not all of it, as it’s unclear, at this time, what the cause of damage is to the seal. I’m also sure that the bill will go to a mediator or something as the forensic engineers go crazy determining who is at fault. Seen it before and I’m sure I’ll see it again. It’s just how construction goes sometimes. But not on my jobs…yet.
February 12, 2014 at 9:01 pm #804309
wakefloodParticipantAfter Jan’s shoulder shrug I just got a flashback of Rummy’s infamous, “there are known knowns and known unknowns, and…” answer to when we’re going to finish in Iraq.
What do we know we don’t know? I don’t know!!
February 12, 2014 at 11:21 pm #804310
JanSParticipantwake, I shrug my shoulders at quite a bit lately. And , yes, I am a bit cynical the older I get. Life will continue to go on whatever happens. It may not be exactly the way we’d (I’d) like it to be….but it will be.
The burger (Elliot Bay) was great :D
February 12, 2014 at 11:55 pm #804311
waynsterParticipantGood thing theses guys aren’t evolved with the cement and Bertha…hmmm New Jersey maybe lmao
February 13, 2014 at 1:54 am #804312
velo_nutParticipantAs someone heavily involved in this project, it’s really hilarious to see what some of you are thinking.
February 13, 2014 at 3:39 am #804313
JanSParticipantso, instead of being insulting and snarky, why not clue us in if you know so much…Mr. Velo nut..
February 13, 2014 at 4:35 am #804314
velo_nutParticipantNo way… This is much more fun.
I live and breathe construction. Mostly Electrical construction on a VERY large scale. I’ve seen projects scale from the millions to the tens of billions.
Shit happens. It just does. Your last home construction project? Maybe the contractor ordered the wrong tile. The last school lighting retro fit? The distributor sent 120v instead of 277v fixtures. THIS HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN CONSTRUCTION.
Unfortunately since this is a public project people lose their mind over every bump in the road but trust me we were expecting set backs. Every time you push the edge of construction you know that the shit might hit the fan. It just will.
The Seattle Tunnel Partners aren’t sitting around looking for ways to steal tax payer money, quite the opposite really. This is a really dangerous evolution that every single one of us take very seriously. A lot of us are Seattle residents who understand the fiscal and broader repercussions if we fall behind. Don’t ever think otherwise.
February 13, 2014 at 5:31 am #804315
JanSParticipantthanks for that. Luckily, I work at home. I don’t go downtown much, and this isn’t impacting me much. I may have personal feelings about it, but as I said, it will be what it will be. Some never wanted it. I figured that the state would do what the state wanted to do. I don’t want to pay for cost overruns. I don’t want to see it delayed so much that it takes a couple of years more to get it done. But, whatever happens, happens. I would assume that we don’t have novices running the show. I would assume ( really bad thing – lol) that Hitachi worked out whatever the problems were before delivering. But if this is all it takes to break the thing, what will happen when it runs into something else? And then something else? I just hope that tunnel is stronger than the machine digging it :)
February 13, 2014 at 7:57 am #804316
metrognomeParticipantvelo-nut – thanks for your perspective; you hit the nail on the head. I worked at Metro when the bus tunnel was being dug and quickly learned that most people have no clue what is involved in this kind of project. Back then, Metro just had to deal with the P-I, which was hell bent on shutting Metro down; now, everyone with a computer gets to weigh in.
I’m guessing the STP folks and WSDOT pretty much know what happened (in a nutshell: the blade hit an obstruction it couldn’t deal with, didn’t shut down quickly enough so the pressure and temp went up and some seals failed.) However, at this point it would be foolish for anyone involved to speculate because anything they say, no matter how seemingly innocent, will end up as the basis of a lawsuit.
The problem will be figured out and Bertha will start chewing again. If they hit better soil, they may make up a lot of time … or not. Someone will pay for the overages but I’m guessing it won’t be WSDOT or taxpayers. Why? Believe it or not, there is a huge ‘international tunneling community;’ the waterfront tunnel is pretty small taters compared to other projects. The major players don’t want future bids negatively affected by screwing up here. Trust me, the tunnel will win many awards and numerous engineering journals will write feature articles about it and the complete restructuring of Alaskan Way, the seawall, the North Portal resolution of the Mercer Mess/Aurora, the South Portal and improved traffic flow through downtown, the new waterfront park and …..
February 15, 2014 at 5:08 am #804317
shed22ParticipantHa! Humans!!
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.