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January 30, 2013 at 4:49 am #780425
Alki-WSParticipantmeg i certainly do not want WW III to solve today’s jobless challenge. i think a person working replacing an aging sewer line is a much better use of labor than building bombs.
January 30, 2013 at 5:06 am #780426
megMemberWell wakeflood, kgdlg says I can NOT be the Geitner-bot replacement. waah. so you’ll have to ask the next bot, who hits the seat. Maybe kgdlg will approve that one. ;)
I haven’t recommended government solutions, or even a better government solution. You’re thinking of someone else, maybe? I think the government causes this stuff. Meddling, like an overstimulated crack dealer.
Folks who saw the financial collapse coming and warned about it, did not have any solutions or tricks that would have fixed the party and kept it going. Think about it. Everyone’s doing the same thing again. They want a solution that doesn’t hurt, that’s easily implemented and voila. They don’t want to pay for what has happened… or they want someone else to pay.
Pick your poison. But it’s clear there *will* be a poison. And I’m afraid that our dear-government will soon choose for us. Rather, that our dear-government and their crony-masters will choose for us.
January 30, 2013 at 5:13 am #780427
megMemberAlki, replacements and repairs are fine, as long as they aren’t stuffed with pork (fat chance). Repairs and replacements are not the kind of stimulus, the kind of wide scale infrastructure creation that the new dealz were.
January 30, 2013 at 5:21 am #780428
megMemberI don’t know why you think I want someone building bombs. I absolutely don’t want a war. I just see it coming, that is all, govt. tits or not.
Indebtedness sucks, & bigger indebtedness sucks way bigger. Austerity can work, but it’s rarely chosen for it is very painful and long. And politically, austerity is impossible. People want a quick fix. Wars are painful and very risky. However, they are politically possible. To the victor go the spoils … to the vanquished, defeat and default. History. Again and again.
January 30, 2013 at 5:34 am #780429
wakefloodParticipantSaid in the voice of that lamenting 60’s cartoon character:
“It’ll never worrrrk.” “We’re never gonna make it, we’re all gonna die!”
January 30, 2013 at 5:41 am #780430
JoBParticipantone could argue that the real depression buster wasn’t the war but Ike and his ‘new deal”
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-lewis26-2008dec26,0,1661524.story
January 30, 2013 at 6:34 am #780431
dobroParticipant“Austerity can work”
Feel free to offer an example from recent (last 50-60 yrs)history.
“Sadly, collapse is inevitable.”
Well, yes, and we are all going to die, too. Any ideas about a solution other than “I hate government”? It does seem you enjoy crowing about being able to see everything coming, history repeating and all that. Can you point us at some society that, in your opinion, avoided these pitfalls and created a system that spread joy, wealth, and the pursuit of happiness with very limited gov’t? Just curious.
January 30, 2013 at 8:02 am #780432
megMemberwakeflood #180,
said the 2005 cartoon voice:
“Da bubble, da bubble…it’s a deceptive financial bubble that’s gonna go bust, your house prices will plummet, the economy will bleed jobs, unemployment will soar, forecloseures will escalate, people will lose their savings, etc. etc.”
another cartoon voice replied:
“gloom & doom, gloom & doom, you people are all doomers, don’t you have any fun? don’t you play? don’t you enjoy life? instead you just say, it’s gonna end Bad Bad Badly…why don’t you enjoy yourselves, buy a house, watch it go up, and live like the rest of us?”
January 30, 2013 at 8:10 am #780433
megMemberdobro, people who saw the financial collapse coming had no enjoyment in seeing it. they weren’t crowing. seeing is not crowing, dobro.
of course, there were many people who snarked at those who warned. they said those who warned of the dangers were ‘just gloating’ and, ohhhh, they perhaps wanted to see people harmed. I guess the word crowing would fit, too.
January 30, 2013 at 8:31 am #780434
dobroParticipant“…people who saw the financial collapse coming had no enjoyment in seeing it.”
Maybe some proper gov’t regulation might have helped.Something like the Glass-Steagall act…oh, well, hindsight is always 20-20.
Any examples of societies where “austerity” worked, as you suggested it can?
January 30, 2013 at 8:38 am #780435
megMemberwhat did the people who warned about the financial collapse, ahead of time…what did *they* think would be a solution? even curious? perhaps they said, “we think there should be even MORE stimulus – from govt. – more stimulus would set this economic ship straight.”
use your google harvesters if you’re curious. try to understand what the few lone voices in the wilderness may have actually said or implied. what were their thoughts, those who early on warned of the crisis that was coming? I certainly don’t have smart little answers all tucked away, to quick fix this economic disaster. I’m most interested in those who saw it very early, those who were alone for the most part, and ridiculed by the media, not those who jumped on the collapse bandwagon near the end.
January 30, 2013 at 3:43 pm #780436
wakefloodParticipantAll of which is water under the bridge at this point. The questions in my mind are:
A)How do we move forward and make the situation better? And…
B)What lessons can we take away from how we got here to (hopefully) not have to relearn in the future?
I’ve stated several times in this and other threads what I think best path forward is. I’m wondering why meg, that you pooh-pooh stimulus for infrastructure (or seem to?) when that specific thing IS one of the suggestions from those who saw the collapse coming. It’s not like you needed to be a rocket scientist to see it!! I knew people were buying homes they couldn’t afford and borrowing money against their homes to buy crap they didn’t need and all of them are in a world of hurt. I followed my late father’s long-standing advice and DIDN’T do those things and ended up in a better place BUT I still suffered general consequences of a faltering economy.
I want more regulation. I want more independence in regulating bodies. I want infrastructure stimulus on the order of the Apollo program. I want a new House of Representatives that isn’t beholden to idiots. But I’ll TAKE movement forward on any of those fronts.
That may seem like fingers in the dyke to you, and it is to me on some level but you gotta’ start somewhere and if you ask me, it all starts with finding shame and diminishing false pride in our society. We honor greed and chest thumping and those who can cheat the system do so, no longer in the shadows but in the broad daylight and pridefully. We’ve lost our moral compass.
I don’t know how to wave a magic wand and get that back but I DO think that maybe we can “fake it ’til we make it”. Just keep the pressure on the Romney’s and Goldman Sach’s of the world by enforcing laws and sending folks to jail for white collar crimes, etc. Maybe over time it will start to have an impact and recenter us morally. Might take generations but we have little choice.
I guess my problem with the civil unrest/WW3 solution is that you haven’t got any guarantees that you end up in a better place and there’s lots of pain to endure along the way, with the law of unintended consequences lurking in the shadows…
January 30, 2013 at 3:48 pm #780437
wakefloodParticipantAnd I’m certainly ok with people in the streets. And lots of them. And relentlessly. I just prefer Gandhi and MLKs method to WTO.
January 30, 2013 at 5:25 pm #780438
DBPMemberOK, wakeflood. Your heart’s in the right place, and I think you’ve got some good ideas. Now tell us how you’re implementing them.
How are you personally “moving forward to make the situation better”?
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January 30, 2013 at 5:51 pm #780439
JoBParticipantmeg..
dobro asked a very good question
“Any examples of societies where “austerity” worked, as you suggested it can?”
January 30, 2013 at 5:56 pm #780440
JoBParticipantDBP
“OK, wakeflood. Your heart’s in the right place, and I think you’ve got some good ideas. Now tell us how you’re implementing them.
How are you personally “moving forward to make the situation better”?”
he is engaging in solution oriented conversations
politicians aren’t trendsetters
they follow what they see as the political will
which boils down to asking themselves how well the lobbyists are selling their agenda to the American people…
if it isn’t selling, they are more leary of backing it.
FAUX was doing a great job of selling those agendas until it pushed the envelope too far and people began to ask themselves if they were being made a fool…
that question came from public conversations like this one…
never underestimate the power of a few good people asking questions and seeking solutions.
January 30, 2013 at 6:43 pm #780441
wakefloodParticipantGood point, DBP, that’s a valid question. I absolutely believe that change starts with me. And I should do whatever I can within my capabilities to bring change about if I feel strongly about it. And I do…
…feel strongly. ;-)
Which begs the following questions:
Do I contact/lobby my elected officials? Almost every day.
Do I engage in my community in the hopes of fostering grass roots change? Yup. Not enough tho.
Do I physically participate in protests? Yes, but not as many as I should.
Do I campaign for people I think can make a difference? Every cycle.
Do I contribute to them? Yes. As much as I can afford.
Do I run for elected office? Nope. Thought about it. Think I missed my window of opportunity, age-wise.
I know there’s more to do and it’s on me. I have folks in my life who aren’t politically active and have limited capacity to engage with me on my many concerns. I think that’s both good and bad. It’s good in that it helps remind me to engage in their lives in important ways but it also limits some of my available time to work on political involvement.
I think I’ve found a niche within my circle as an informed voice of reason. (I’m sure there are some on this blog who think both “informed” and “reason” are figments of my imagination!) And they seek me out when trying to form their own opinions on issues to get background or bounce ideas off of. I consider that a very high compliment and may be my highest and best use, as they say.
And you all???
January 30, 2013 at 6:56 pm #780442
JoBParticipantJanuary 30, 2013 at 11:04 pm #780443
dobroParticipantStill wondering if we’ll ever get any examples of societies where “austerity” worked, as meg suggested it can?
Got any?
January 31, 2013 at 2:45 am #780444
WorldCitizenParticipantbump
meg..
dobro asked a very good question
“Any examples of societies where “austerity” worked, as you suggested it can?”
January 31, 2013 at 5:52 pm #780445
wakefloodParticipantAnd while we wait for Meg’s research and response, wanted to second JoB’s thought on never underestimating the power of asking good questions and vetting solutions.
It reminded me of a similar quote I use with my project teams, when appropriate.
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever does.”
Margaret Mead
January 31, 2013 at 7:25 pm #780446
JoBParticipantFebruary 1, 2013 at 3:45 am #780447
WorldCitizenParticipantmeg..
dobro asked a very good question
“Any examples of societies where “austerity” worked, as you suggested it can?”
February 1, 2013 at 2:01 pm #780448
redblackParticipantmeg: cheap and easy credit were side effects of the leverage that was happening on wall street. that cheap and easy credit came from private entities, not government policies.
that’s what happens when you turn americans’ mortgages and credit card payments into money-making financial instruments.
maybe we should sell war bonds again.
February 1, 2013 at 3:57 pm #780449
wakefloodParticipantAnd for a timely and quick read on this very topic, we have today’s “Looking for Mr. Goodpain”. It’s about all the economists and austerity fans scouring the world looking for austerity that improved depressed economies. Hint: They’re still looking.
I know some folks in these parts think Krugman is some kind of economic fool but then again, them facts is stubborn things.
Read on you citizens of frugality. You righteous penny-pinchers. :-)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/opinion/krugman-looking-for-mister-goodpain.html?_r=0
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