Are we becoming a third world country?

[JoB]

Interesting article..

i copied it to post on the housing topic on the home page and then realized it might be a good topic for discussion here..

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024611304_westneat24xml.html?prmid=obinsite#.VCwUq5wDcMI.facebook

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[miws]

I’m generally not one to be all “Doom and Gloom”, or get into what might be thought of as a “Conspiracy Theory”, but I truly believe we are on our way to becoming a true Third World Country.

I honestly think that if we didn’t have the internet, I’d actually feel the gloom, because we may not have enough money, even collectively, to fight back against the Koch Bros and other 1%ers, but we have our collective voices, and hopefully continuing to use them will have an impact.

Mike

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[wakeflood]

Re: the article. Did you see the pathetic example Westneat uses to imply that the gov’t might have enough $ already?

“If the city of Seattle has the money to root around in our trash to see if we’re composting properly, might that be a sign they have enough?”

Really? Shaking my head. Having a couple of people making sure that folks aren’t dropping nasty crap in with their compost is your confirmation of a gov’t that has enough money to function properly?

Well, first of all people DO stick nasty crap in their compost, and secondly, you need the input be clean because you SELL the product on the open market as a revenue offset! Don’t you WANT the city to maximize that return? Would you WANT them to produce a crappy product that they can’t sell??

I’m assuming he used that example to show just how weak the argument is. That’s the only excuse I can think of.

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[skeeter]

I think some taxpayers struggle to understand why our government feels that tax revenues are inadequate to fund services. Washington State (and each city in it) primarily get revenue through sales tax, property tax, and B&O tax. All three tax rates have either stayed pretty constant or have increased in the past 20 years. The economy has grown so the revenues from each source continue to grow as well. So someone needs to explain to the taxpayers what has changed.

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[JoB]

skeeter..

the economy tanked and we got massive unemployment and home foreclosures… that’s what changed.

Our collective need greatly outpaced our collective resources…

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[skeeter]

But the taxpayers want hard numbers.

In 2012, the city of Seattle had revenues of $3.08B. In 2013, the city of Seattle had revenues of $3.31B. That is an increase of 7.46%.

Source: http://www.seattle.gov/financial-services/comprehensive-annual-financial-report

So before we raise taxes again, I think the taxpayers want to know why the existing and increasing revenue stream is inadequate.

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[wakeflood]

Skeets, I brought this point up in at least one other thread recently.

Real dollar increases in tax collection doesn’t have any direct or indirect relationship to what is needed to make it our city/region/state work.

I have ten more dollars I added to my coin jar last month too, I still can’t take a vacation with what’s in it.

We’re one of the fastest growing cities in the country with infrastructure mostly built out in the 1950’s/’60’s. And some of it in the 1930’s/40’s – namely the sewer and clean water pipes in my neighborhood. I just spent $10k to fix the pipes from my house to the street. That’s fine. Who’s responsible to do the street to the treatment plant? Sounds like that’s on us collectively? Or maybe you’d have each street create a 3rd Ave. Sewer Improvement District?

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[wakeflood]

Here’s an extreme example but it’s a real one. And many cities in this country have similar versions of this issue.

The state of NY has 100yr. old clean and waste water system that is not only smaller than needed but is falling apart.

Estimates range into the $10-$30 billion and 20+yrs. to fix it and buy another 100yrs. of functioning system.

The piper has come calling and nobody’s especially happy about coughing up significant chunks of $, that by any estimation has to come from somewhere. There’s some folks in certain areas that will be significantly impacted beyond just having a new system in place. Their communities’ water systems still have decades of life in them. And yet their lives are going to be impacted in some cases, more than the direct beneficiaries.

The current taxing structure is already in shortfall. What do you do? Do you end up letting the system fail and ask the Feds (that’s you and me) to cough up billions to do some quick fixes that guarantee other major failures in the near future or do you leave it up to the state to nail a big levy on everyone for decades to cover it?

How do we solve these issues that we all have? We don’t look to the future anymore because we’ve convinced ourselves we can’t afford to and consequently, we’ve let our house fall apart.

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[wakeflood]

And let’s not forget, the infrastructure we all use was funded and primarily built out when we had 150-200 million people. We have over 300 million now. That’s at least a 75% increase in about 50 yrs. AND, a significantly larger percentage of those folks now live in cities versus rural or sparsely populated suburbs.

That’s literally 2 or 3x the density pressure on every single piece of infrastructure we have.

That’s the stuff that makes modern densely populated society work and it’s been getting coats of paint and spit shines for several generations. The most recent estimate I saw listed our BACKLOG as 4-5 TRILLION DOLLARS – just in maintenance to bring things up to spec. You want to talk improvements or implementing forward-looking technology? Double that.

Investment in our society is now viewed as optional. There was a time when it was either an obligation if not an opportunity.

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[skeeter]

So which taxes should we raise to pay for the backlog? Property tax, sales tax, or B&O tax? Alternatively, should we increase fees for water/sewer/electricity to pay for the backlog?

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[rw]

Unfortunately I think we (as a country) are undertaxed, compared to other advanced countries, which leads to inferior infrastructure and education (especially since military spending takes a disproportionate cut from US tax revenues):

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

Among the countries that surround us on this chart two things stand out:

First, only Turkey, Chile, and Mexico rank below us.

Second, I was surprised to see Switzerland and Japan also come in well below the mean. I suspect that has to do with their relatively small land mass, and relatively homogenous populations.

The article also makes a number of other interesting observations about US tax policy.

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[wakeflood]

Skeets, it’s going to take a combination of more progressive and unfortunately, more regressive taxation as well. More levies, user fees, etc. To spread the pain is basically the only politically viable option – if then.

And as I’ve also said before, because we’re emotional children, we’re going to need a lot of sugar to make the medicine go down. Which is to say, every significant constituency involved on any issue will get something bright and shiny as a bribe to vote for whatever it is. That will bloat the total costs significantly but I don’t see any way around it.

Wide open to better ideas. You got one?

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[wakeflood]

And it should be pondered, Skeets, with regard to B&O taxes, which nobody likes to see as high as they are – why have they gotten so high?

Well, it’s certainly worth looking at the big companies who leverage (read blackmail) legislators against the smaller ones. Boeing gets $7.8 Billion in relief? OK, so where does that get made up? The answer is, it doesn’t in entirety, but B&O for the others is one of the options.

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[seaopgal]

Just to be clear, wakeflood, the city actually wants to root around in your TRASH to make sure you haven’t put compostables and food in it rather than in the clean green … not the other way around. (OK by me, although it might eventually lead to an increase in the haulers’ contracts since they will be responsible for checking the trash and warning or adding the $1 fine to the bill.) But, you’re right, it’s a pathetic example of government overspending. The SPD not having financial controls (or smarts or care) to catch more than $1 million in “unintended” overtime pay would be a better one.

But back to the topic at hand, I agree with Westneat’s conclusion: “We are not a poor country but we are acting like one.” We need an income tax and we need to hold businesses accountable for their fair share of the costs, especially the impact of new development. And people who think we pay too much in taxes need an ongoing reality check. (Thanks, rw.)

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[JayDee]

I would prefer that Corporations actually pay tax at the rates they bitch about, not the offshore tax havens that they use to avoid paying them, and similar tricks. Boeing is a prime example for this and so Microsoft, and Apple. Individuals like Mitt Romney that use the carried interest loophole should be dinged. Those people treat it like income when they get it, not as a windfall capital gain.

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Like wakeflood opined, I am reluctant to have an income tax because I know that the income tax for Washington state will not be offset with a decrease in property taxes even if this is promised. What an

---

mess.

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[wakeflood]

Jay Dee, yup, something’s gotta’ give or this won’t get solved.

I’m all for the corps and uber rich coughing up their fair share, of course.

My hope is that we can craft an income tax proposal that gives folks like you enough confidence that any future tax increases have a reasonable threshold and require voter input to change. That’s still a tight window given the propensity for taxes to get voted down but at least we have a stable mechanism that doesn’t put a disproportional weight on property taxes.

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[2 Much Whine]

Really? Well, I wrote a whole bunch of very pointed arguments and just hit the delete key (part of the new leaf I’m turning over). All I ask is that those of you that think we live in a third world country should spend some time in India. It will change your perspective. We live in a GREAT country. Maybe not the best but FAR from third world (or at least my definition of third world). Apparently not great enough for everyone. That is all.

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[JTB]

2MuchWhine and wakeflood: AFAIK, you are both off the mark, although 2MW is laughably demonstrative of our countrymen and women who aren’t able to see the present for what it is and therefore unprepared to provide a helpful contribution to shaping the future. What we have is global capitalism overwhelming democratic influences on political economic forces in OECD countries. And in all likelihood, the excess wealth produced in India, China, and Russia will gradually be consolidated in the global financial industry which respects no national borders. Any notion that local, regional or national political policies can restrain or engage the “owners” of capital is simply wrong if one assumes any accommodation with the present structures of capitalist democracy, one which has proven resistant to genuinely democratic institutions. Increasing public debt and deteriorating public services is the fundamental picture of a future when whatever (decreasing) real wealth continues to be withdrawn via huge tax breaks and diverted to speculative endeavors. Even when successful, those investments provide little benefit to the workforce that generated the initial wealth as investors move beyond national allegiances to whatever global safe haven affords maximum insulation from tax obligations. So again, I’ll submit that in order to maintain a fragile infrastructure, the working and retired populations will increasingly bear the expenses through tax levies and declining services. Because this dynamic has become global, I’m skeptical that a progressive political upswing in any major economy will be able to reverse the process since, a noted above, capital will simply move to more protected environs. As noted elsewhere, “we’re screwed.”

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[wakeflood]

JTB, seriously, tell us what you really think.

FWIW, I don’t disagree with much of what you say. The difference being that I’m willing to allow for pockets of committed people who can generate some local momentum away from the creeping Oligarchy. And maybe they can eventually coalesce and break the paradigm.

I realize it’s not going to be easy nor is it likely but I have hope. Simply because to surrender leaves me cold.

And as I asked generically to nobody and everybody, “what are you willing to do?”

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[JTB]

Wake: educate and agitate. We face an incredible challenge in this country due to a combination of complacency and indoctrination. While I think it’s likely that any momentum to reign in finance capitalism and to reverse 40 years of massive redistribution of wealth will be initiated in other countries, I think it’s better to press against the shortcomings of the system rather than to focus on accommodation. Which is not to say that advancing genuinely progressive policies and candidates is not a good idea; I consider that to be both educating and agitating.

BTW in a nod to the OP, we learned today that health department officials in Dallas, TX have encountered difficulty in locating a contractor willing to enter and sanitize the apartment where the man with ebola was staying. The operative word is “contractor.” I wonder how many third world countries don’t have public health workers to help deal with public health emergencies. What’s even more remarkable to me is the inept management of the patient in his first encounter with the hospital when he and his relatives disclosed he’d been in Liberia recently and the information wasn’t carried forward. We have the best healthcare system in the world, right?

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[dobro]

The way you can tell what a family, an organization, or a country’s priorities are is simple. What do they spend their money on? America spends its money on war. The war budget is more than the next 10 countries put together. Its insane. But it is reality.

War profiteers, The military-industrial complex, and multinational corporations run this place. Nothing trumps their needs. Nothing.

In 2013, 45.3 million people in the United States lived in poverty. Middle class wages have been stagnant for 30 years while the 1% have been raking. I think the definition of “third world” being tossed around here has to do with income inequality which is becoming positively Argentinian these days.

All that said, I’m hopeful, too. There’s a lot of paradigm shifting going on among the younger generation and a lot of it is positive.

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[wakeflood]

Nods to both JTB and dobro.

When I get down I remind myself of Margaret Mead’s quote:

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

And it always helps to look around and realize that others see the same craziness and cognitive dissonance I do. At least I know I’m not insane. Well, maybe “know” is a bit strong. ;-)

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[JoB]

2 much Whine

i will agree that the label third world is intentionally provocative in this article…

but i think the writer does a good job of punching some pretty substantial holes in the over-inflated notion that we are the role model for progress that other countries should be following.

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[JoB]

i too hope that the pendulum has swung far enough to the right that inevitable momentum will swing it back towards the left…

however.. i remember hearing a very wise woman say exactly the same thing 50 years ago…

what the youth of our generation seems to have created was a backlash of epic proportions.

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[wakeflood]

To donor’s point:

“By the end of the year, Congress will have appropriated more money for Afghanistan’s reconstruction, when adjusted for inflation, than the United States spent rebuilding 16 European nations after World War II under the Marshall Plan.”

So, we have that going for us.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/opinion/paying-afghanistans-bills.html?referrer=

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[Author]

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