What is really a waste, is the government’s continual swatting at flies to look busy, while there are so many huge elephants (Diane’s article) in the room.

Call me juvenile if you like, but sooner or later we need to get our noses out of the pet peeve issues and create some substantial change.

Getting enough signatures for a vote on any issue does not posit that a majority care about that issue. If so, every initiative/referendum would have passed.

Sorry, but I’m guessing the paid petition takers probably did not state the full breakdown of where the funds will go, or the reason why this is needing a solution. “Here – sign this or else they will charge you what was once free!”

In that instance, maybe it is better it’s going to a vote. I just think this is all so silly. Why should bags be free anyway? Bringing your own bags is so easy. Plastic bags are bad for the environment. What else matters?

“I am no longer going to pick up someone else’s mess if the fee doesn’t pass”

To punish those who disagree with you, the oceans pay the price? Is this about the environment or being right? I’m bothered by all of the my way or the highway people. What happened to the intelligent conversation supposedly desired?

I’d like to explore the biodegradable bag options, myself. It seems the extra cost to supply those would be about the same as the suggested fee, if the grocer kept all of the revenue and left the city out of it. Think of the advertising benefits to retailers who tout their “greenness”.

We seem to have conflicting information from the experts in the field, as well. Maybe we could hear more about that. Or we could keep shaming people with the “you can’t make me” mantra.

JT..

one person can only do so much and i already do far more than my fair share.

If citizens like me don’t pick them up… then the city will have to pay someone to pick them up..

and paying more to deal with plastic bags will get everyone’s attention.

besides.. if you agree they are a problem for marine life… why aren’t you in favor of a solution that would at least decrease the number of bags floating around?

so.. are you going to propose to the mayor that the city require groceries to use bio-degradable bags?

because that is what i would take to exceed the impact the bag fee would have had.

JoB, I never said whether I was against the fee. I never said I don’t use my own bags (I do). I never said I wasn’t concerned about the environment.

What I did say, is I’m against people who make decisions and that’s it. I’m the decider. I’ve decided. “You’re either with us, or against us.” And to question that, you’re called whiners, juvenile, and callous toward the environment.

This is a convenient perspective when it concerns an issue you agree with.

Perhaps I wasn’t paying attention, but I don’t recall any kind of community input or educational symposium and I’d like to know more. Maybe I will propose biodegradable bags to the city council. Is it something they considered? Is it possible? If we, as taxpayers/consumers, are going to be paying for it one way or another, what are the options?

I’m simply participating in a forum discussion. No more, no less, and no need to try and shut me down.

flowerpetal, my mistake. I changed it to city council on the one comment I could still edit.

And my definition of being shut down are comments like…the only reason someone could disagree is because they are juvenile and think to themselves “you can’t make me”.

JT…

i didn’t try to shut you down.. i said that the reasons given on this blog mostly come down to simply not wanting to be told what to do.

The city council passed a policy.

The plastic industry and the grocery council decided to spend big bucks to sway public opinion and pay signature gatherers to gain enough signatures to force a public vote.. which the public.. not the plastic industry and the grocery council will pay for.

The public will also pay for the cost of an education program while the plastic industry and the grocers council outbids them industry funded studies and misleading ads.

If it does not pass, the public, not the plastic industry or the grocery council, will absorb the cost of collection and recycling of plastic bags.

Regardless of how it turns out, this vote is going to cost a lot of public money that could have been used for public services…

and just what will we get for that money?

Any of the alternatives so far suggested could have been implemented by local grocers at any time…

yet until the fee was proposed, you couldn’t even easily use your own bag at automatic checkout stands and were as often harassed by grocery clerks as applauded for bringing your own bags.

Stores could have instituted collection sites for used plastic bags as they do in Oregon. They could have changed to biodegradable bags.

If you are waiting for them to do so, you will wait a long time. The plastic collection sites didn’t appear in Oregon stores by magic, but by public policy.

it will take public policy or a voted law to create change.

mickeymouse,

yes, the city government offices could do more..

as could we all.

biodegradable plastic bags are available to line our waste cans and pick up our dog poo.. and although most of what is currently available takes a very long time to compost, they will eventually do so… as our current plastic won’t.

every time someone picks up their animal’s waste, they create a plastic wrapped turd for our landfills that will still exist for centuries… same with your carefully bagged trash if those bags aren’t emptied.

And although the plastic won’t break down, it appears that it will leach chemicals into our ground water… chemicals thought to contribute to many metabolic disorders that are becoming far more prevalent.

as long as cheaper plastic alternatives are available , people will choose them over biodegradable bags..

and the cost of biodegradable bags won’t come down until the demand goes up.

so tell me, how do you make that happen without policies or laws?

It easier to criticize than it is to come up with viable solutions.

JT,

I had found that site myself JT back when I was looking into the issue. I was quite amazed and what I learned from the site all by having an *open* mind on an issue I was interested in.

“simply not wanting to be told what to do.” – For me that is not the issue. For me the issue is that we are not really fixing any problem. They have created a bandaid to make people feel like they are doing something great for the environment when in fact we arent really addressing any issue at all.

And yes, Mickeymouse, I would love to see the city’s bill on all the nonbiodegradable garbage bags i see being used in our public parks and buildings garbage cans. Seems that might be a better issue to addresss than the plastic bags @ a grocery store. Wouldnt that be a thought to be leading by example…

But there are hundreds of parks in the city. And for example, I see park employees empty garbage cans @ Emma Schmitz park @ least twice a week. There are a minimum of four garbage cans there. That is 8 garbage bags a week @ one park!! Over four bags a year @ one park!! There are hundredes of parks in Seattle … so that is easily over 4000 bags a year in our city parks alone…this are not biodegradable bags!!!

JT..

Beachdrivegirl posted that site in the other thread.. and the argument they make is equally weak now.

They site plastic industry studies as their sources.. and in one case the source was the personal observations of one of the writers. It is a stretch to call their paper a study. It’s really more of a position paper.

beyond that, did you notice that their survey didn’t ask whether people would rather pay a bag fee or whether they would rather have the increased garbage fees the bag fee would have alleviated?

nope. guess they found that irrelevant.

Maybe not so unbiased after all…

So, plastic bags have become thinner and more degradable than ever. They are both recyclable and re-usable. The vast majority of consumers will be buying thicker less degradable bags to replace these.

I have purchased the re-usable bags at both costco and trader joe’s. Non-degradable plastic. I have purchased bags at PCC and Met market. I even have some really cool handmade one’s I received as gifts. I’m sure I’ll purchase some safeway one’s soon too. Because no matter how well meaning we all are, they get forgotten in the house or I wasn’t planning on stopping at the store. How green is it to buy a new bag every time I shop? How many resources go into making these bags?

The position keeps changing from being green, to saving marine life, to not paying more for your garbage bill. Has Rabanco even said they would raise rates if we don’t vote for this fee that goes to the city, not them, in the first place? I would guess gas prices for their trucks would be behind any rate change.

I was on the fence before, but the more condescending the greenies become, the more I research and see that this is another feel good about ourselves measure that has little to no real world effect.

BTW, the survey you call biased was performed by Seattle Public Utilities, not the NEPS. And if you bothered to read some of the references and sources, you would see that their position paper is based on the work of others (WA State recycling industry, for one). Their function has just been to gather the information, not create it.