Mayor's new Alaskan Way Viaduct suggestion: Close it next year

GetaLife RideaBike March 14, 2011 (10:54 pm)

How about this? Keep the viaduct in place. Add 2 concrete braces located at each perpendicular street to stiffen or dampen the horizontal seismic concerns of the Viaduct. The top could attach to the viaduct and the bottom could land in one parking stall on each side of the street. These braces would also be stairs at the steeper pitches and ramps at the lower pitches to access the lower deck. Then… update the lower deck to hold a PARK similar to the HighLine in NYC. Make the deck accessible to pedestrians and bikes ONLY yielding the longest covered park in the world WITH the best view in the World.
The top deck can be weather protection only for the lower deck. Maybe an Urban garden on the upper deck.
Personally I’d nix the tunnel and let the cars fend for themselves to promote buses but even with it we’d be miles ahead….miles of Park!
Oooo sorry I must have dozed off, I had that recurrent Viaduct dream…

sna March 14, 2011 (10:56 pm)

As I said in the forums, it’s time to start thinking about a recall. This proposal was the last straw for me. I’ve had enough and I don’t even support the tunnel.

This mayor offers no solutions.

Ken March 14, 2011 (11:21 pm)

If we get a 9.0 quake, we’ll have a ton of other problems to deal with beyond the viaduct…

Noelle March 14, 2011 (11:24 pm)

Is it better to wait for the Viaduct to just fall down on its own? That thing is a death trap that will not do well in a future earthquake. The mayor has said in the past that he would like to see surface streets replace the Viaduct. That is a tough solution, but it is a safe and cost effective option. Traffic would be bad at first, but like New York and other major cities, Seattle’s traffic flow would adjust to a livable tempo. I really wish Seattle would just put in surface streets along the waterfront, like Park Avenue or something. Seattle is a growing city and traffic is a growing pain we all have to endure. Seattle-ites will just have to get used to longer commutes like people in other places. Maybe the bad traffic will inspire more bus ridership and car pooling?

dsa March 14, 2011 (11:38 pm)

The word is recall.

Jeff F. March 14, 2011 (11:53 pm)

Unbelievable. Let’s not let mince words here Mayor McGinn. You are blatantly using the tragedy in Japan to promote your anti-tunnel campaign. Do you sleep well at night? You are using the deaths of thousands and images of destruction fresh in all of our minds a world away to push your obstructionist agenda. Have you no shame? You are an absolute embarrassment to this city. The only thing more shocking then your statements is the fact you make me miss the days of Paul Schell! Let’s start the recall process. This city can’t take another 3 years of this.

cj March 14, 2011 (11:54 pm)

The viaduct needs to come down even if nothing is built to take the load. Also I wouldn’t want to be in that tunnel during a disaster ether.

Curious March 14, 2011 (11:59 pm)

GalRab- BEST idea I’ve heard yet!!!

Nulu March 15, 2011 (12:09 am)

“He doesn’t have a detailed proposition on it,” McGinn spokesman Mark Matassa said later Monday.
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“Maybe the bad traffic will inspire more bus ridership and car pooling?”
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Maybe not. It certainly has had no such inspiration so far.
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Maybe people will just leave the city.
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What about the tidal wave of such a seismic event if McGinn gets his way?…Surface streets loaded with bicyclists and crammed busses, gridlock everywhere and nowhere to go as SODO, Harbor Island and Pioneer Square disappear under a wall of water?
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I’ll use the viaduct at my own risk and for spectacular viewing of the tidal destruction below.

toddinwestwood March 15, 2011 (5:26 am)

the buses are not going anywhere if they are stuck in the same traffic with thousands of cars. we need dedicated bus lanes to make buses work here.

Pete March 15, 2011 (6:31 am)

If one is going to come out with statements such as this they should also have a plan to resolve the issue. Putting all of those vehicles onto our surface streets is not the answer. Mike claims to be a green person but how can you explain away the added polution of all of these vehicles as they idle at the 27 stop lights that will be encountered on the surface.
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As to tthe comment about not wanting to be in the tunnel. The tunnel will erform much better in an earthquake then any surface road. Look at the BART tunnels in San Francisco during their last big quake. Elevated highways pancaked but the tunnel was not damaged and was back in surface quite rapidly.
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And as far as adding more public transportation….where do you suppose that money is going to come from to purchase and operate more buses. Metro is already having huge financial difficulties and we are facing a huge cutback in hours of operation.

TB March 15, 2011 (6:40 am)

Seriously, how do we recall this shameless embarrassment of a mayor?

redblack March 15, 2011 (6:47 am)

jeff: sorry. you can’t use viaduct safety to promote DBT, which leaves the viaduct standing until 2016, and which will cost millions of more dollars to maintain. if safety is your big concern, you should be behind mcginn on this.
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pete: now we get down to it: build the tunnel and starve transit funding.
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i vote no on recall! it’s kind of nice to see a non-business-friendly non-politician challenging the big players’ long-held assumptions and entitlements in this town for a change, instead of bending over and licking their boots whenever they want something.

rw March 15, 2011 (7:02 am)

I wish I knew Greg Nickles well enough to get a candid, honest answer to this question: Do you ever laugh at the foolishness of Seattle voters who rejected you because you were too heavy-handed in your support of environmental causes — and proceeded to replace you with an even more ham-handed environmental crusader?

Mind you, I support most environmental causes, and generally approved of Nickles’ leadership of the city, even if at times he over-reached and pissed people off. McGuinn, on the other hand, is still more the head of the local Sierra Club than mayor serving all the people of Seattle. The people be damned, seems to be his attitude. Tear down the viaduct and let people who live north and south of downtown figure out how to get around town. That, my neighbors, is real leadership–not!!

Jeff March 15, 2011 (7:25 am)

The Viaduct may in fact be a death trap waiting to happen, but so is half of downtown. It’s all built on the same fill, and in an earthquake like Japan it’s all going to come down. So I see no particular urgency to remove that stretch of dangerous road sooner than scheduled.

redblack March 15, 2011 (8:09 am)

[i posted a response earlier to Jeff F, whom i addressed as “jeff,” but it hasn’t appeared yet. sorry for any confusion caused by my lack of capital letters.]
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if a tsunami of that magnitude hits elliott bay, our ancient, ad-hoc, spit-and-baling wire seawall stands no chance of holding the waterfront in place.
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we can’t rebuild the seawall properly until AWV is gone.
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mcginn is right.
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and no matter how well we build a new seawall, if a tsunami of that magnitude occurs here, the DBT’s admittedly superior ability to withstand an earthquake is the least of our concerns:
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people will drown in any tunnel that’s below sea level.

sna March 15, 2011 (8:32 am)

It doesnt matter if McGinn is “right”. To suggest that a major transportation corridor be shut down next year with no plan for the displaced traffic is irresponsible.

JM March 15, 2011 (8:46 am)

Seriously, how bad did the other candidates have to be in order for a skosh more than half of those who voted elected this yutz to be mayor?

OP March 15, 2011 (8:53 am)

Keep the viaduct, lose this clown for a mayor. That’s my plan.

westsidej March 15, 2011 (9:22 am)

Mcginn is a joke. I voted for Callahan, I figured he would kick A and take names. That’s what this city needs instead of more charlie chong milktoast. Mcginn has no plan he doesn’t even come to budget meetings prepared. Exactly what was he succesfull at before becoming mayor? Does anyone know? I am not going to equate city government to a business, but is it just me that thinks this irrational fop just throws stuff at the wall hoping something sticks?

anon March 15, 2011 (9:41 am)

I hate to tell everyone this, but the threat of tsunami hitting downtown Seattle is slim to none. It would have to travel through from the coast through the Straits of Juan de Fuca, past Deception Pass, etc.. etc… before it got here. The water level may rise a bit in the sound, but we would not see what Japan did in our downtown area. The worst destruction for us would be from the earthquake. The coast is entirely different matter. I am not in favor of an all street option nor do I think McGinn is anywhere close to being a good mayor, but I wouldn’t mind seeing it come down early while they finish the tunnel. As someone that takes at least 10 trips a week on the viaduct via bus I have no confidence that it might not fall down regardless of an earthquake in the next 6 yrs. Remember what happened in Minnesota? I’m assuming those of you who are so non-chalant about it don’t take the viaduct on a daily basis? The view isn’t worth anyone dying.

foy boy March 15, 2011 (9:59 am)

What is everybody worried about. The viaduct was over built at the time they built it. And by todays standards it is way over built.All the tunnel is is a public works project. With any luck the tunnel they are building will be just as under budget and work with out any problems like the big dig in Boston. After all they’er people are here to help advise seattle on how they did it right.

JanS March 15, 2011 (10:14 am)

I have a question for you folks about the huge “tidal wave” that you’re so worried about. Where is it going to come from? The ocean? It might come through the straits, but it can’t make a right turn and come down to Elliot Bay. It simply doesn’t work like that. You think we could generate a 4 story wave in Elliot Bay alone? really? I’m not an expert, but I bet that the experts will tell you that EB is fairly safe from that.

Now, about the viaduct coming down next year. I’m with those people against it, if there is no alternate plan. It’s time we held Mayor McGinn’s feet to the fire about this. He’s been wishy washy up until now, and I really think he doesn’t have a clue about alternatives. Did he run his law practice like this?

Nulu March 15, 2011 (10:19 am)

“people will drown in any tunnel that’s below sea level.” redblack
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Not true, ever heard of the Chunnel in Europe?
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Redblack please explain what will happen to all of the gridlocked bikers, busses and cars caught in the areas of the waterfront, SODO, Pioneer Square with nowhere to go? The surface streets will be a death zone of falling glass and tall building debris. How will fire and rescue get through McGinn’s intended gridlock? They won’t even be able to get out of the Pioneer Square Fire Station.

Jeff F. March 15, 2011 (10:47 am)

@redblack You are proving my point exactly. No one questions the safety concerns of the Viaduct. In a large quake, it will collapse. So will the seawall. In the Nisqually quake, if it had gone on for as little as 15 seconds longer, it would have collapsed. The problem here is McGinn is using the politics of fear to push his agenda. He’s trying to scare people into supporting his obstructionist plan of doing nothing. If McGinn was serious about shutting down the Viaduct for safety, what’s his plan to do so? Fact is he doesn’t have a plan. He has no plan what so ever for anything. I also suggest he do his research before shooting his mouth off. People will not drown in the tunnel. That is a ridiculous notion that preys on peoples fears.

M March 15, 2011 (11:04 am)

For all you people who want a recall, I totally agree; but how do we do it? They have done it in CA a few times; are there different requirements in WA?

Please post if you know…

WSB March 15, 2011 (11:16 am)

Someone asked that question two weeks ago and I posted this informational link:
http://www.mrsc.org/Subjects/Governance/OfficeRecall.aspx

Nulu March 15, 2011 (11:34 am)

Not an attorney, but I wonder if it is possible to remove McGinn for…
“Misfeasance” or malfeasance” in office means any wrongful conduct that affects, interrupts, or interferes with the performance of official duty;

* Additionally, “misfeasance” in office means the performance of a duty in an improper manner.”
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One could argue that the mayor’s lie to get elected and continuing obstructionism “interrupts, or interferes with the performance of official duty.” He and his staff must spend a great deal of time obstructing governance on this single issue.
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Think of all that could be accomplished if he did not waste our time with delays.

JB March 15, 2011 (11:45 am)

@JanS – It’s obvious that you’re not an expert. Check a map and you’ll notice Elliot bay is connected to the ocean. Also water does make right and left turns, just go watch surfers on a point break. Now imagine that point break with a 30′ vertical displacement. You can sail over a tsunami wave out to sea and not notice it. When it hits a confined space the displaced water has nowhere to go but up. Spend an hour researching Puget Sound Tsunami on the web, and then picture everything below 3rd ave flooded and toppled. Mind you, that’s regardless of seismic activity.

Al March 15, 2011 (11:52 am)

Here’s some interesting information I found recently. It was not distributed or known widely apparently…http://www.cnu.org/node/112…it contains good information about WSDOT’s studies about traffic use of the area and makes the updated street grid plan possible; many would still agree.

“Engineers conclude that adequate street capacity makes not rebuilding the viaduct a “viable option” and call for analysis to be corrected for Seattle to make an informed decision on its Alaskan Way options…Traffic experts who have conducted a thorough review of the Washington State Department of Transportation’s analysis of the “no-replacement option” for the damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct have found significant flaws in that analysis, including the use of exaggerated estimates of future downtown street traffic and misleading conclusions about the amount of truck traffic on the viaduct….”

Found here as well http://seattletransitblog.com/2011/03/15/cascadia-congress-for-new-urbanism-summit-in-portland/

Mike March 15, 2011 (12:14 pm)

Puget Sound Tsunami Inundation Modeling
Preliminary Report
http://nctr.pmel.noaa.gov/pugetsound/pre2/

from the experts…

JanS March 15, 2011 (12:45 pm)

Thanks, Mike. Interesting reading, although kinda technical, at least for me. I am going to continue looking for info on how/if a tsunami will affect downtown SEAttle ( and the coast of West Seattle)…esp. something in layman’s terms.

JanS March 15, 2011 (1:15 pm)

I don’t mind being told that I’m wrong…we all need an education about this, IMHO. Here’s an article from back in 2005:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/211158_tsunamiseattle08.html

and this info from Wikipedia is informative. too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Fault

Babs March 15, 2011 (1:33 pm)

Politics of fear? Oh come on. Since when does wanting to take action because the reality of a quake happening here like Japan and the resulting devastation make speaking out politics of fear. It was a wake up call big time. It could be tomorrow or a hundred years away. Myself – I think prevention is a cure. I’m anti-tunnel but know that viaduct has to go. I love it, love its stunning hello Seattle view when I drive on it northbound – but it won’t love me when a 7.0, 8.0, 9.0 earthquake hits.

Nulu March 15, 2011 (2:13 pm)

Thanks Al.
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You cite two sources of information that share a conclusion, and then set out to prove it.
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Just reboot the old saw, “Figures don’t lie, liars figure.”
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MAS March 15, 2011 (2:16 pm)

The NOAA link (thanks Mike) is fairly clear (and the simulations are interesting too.) They also summarize it well:

“The inundation map of the Seattle waterfront area shows that the heavy inundation occurs at Pier 90, 91 with the flow depth of more than 2 m, and at Pier 55 to 77 and Pier 36 to 54 with approximately 1 m flow depth.”

So, standing on the waterfront, a 3′ wave (above ground level) washing in would be pretty destructive I would think. Everything on the piers gone, but it sounds like the 2nd and 3rd ave scenario are unlikely, even with the collapse of the seawall. The 6′ wave around Queen Anne would also be problematic I expect.

The HepCat March 15, 2011 (4:56 pm)

We all seemed so suprised that Mayor McSchwinn used the tragedy in Japan to bolster his position? C’mon folks, Ray Charles could’ve seen that coming. All in all, if the big (9.0) one hits, it doesn’t matter where you are along the water, something will happen, and it won’t be good. Let’s bolster the existing viaduct, use the money dedicated to the Mayor’s colossal goat fu*k of a tunnel idea to remove him from office, and get someone with better sense to run this city. What’s Charlie Sheen doing?…

redblack March 15, 2011 (5:02 pm)

nulu: i’m quite aware that the chunnel is below sea level. what i meant is that if a tsunami of that magnitude struck pioneer square and overwhelmed the sea wall, the proposed south portal of the DBT would be a path of least resistance for water to flow into, inundating those caught inside it.
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i don’t think the english channel is a candidate for tsunamis. (but with the weird, unprecedented tectonic activity in the past decade or so, all bets are off, no?) furthermore, chunnel’s portals are well above sea level. DBT’s portals are at sea level.
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regarding pioneer square, even if people were to survive the 20- or 30-foot wall of water, it will be a death trap, tunnel or no. to imply that the tunnel will magically provide an exit from danger is foolish.
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heh. and even if it is a viable exit from danger, you’ll still get a toll or a ticket for using it.

redblack March 15, 2011 (5:07 pm)

jan: the tsunami threat doesn’t necessarily have to come from across the sea. (just look at sendai and the coastal villages in japan, which were close to the epicenter.) i believe that if a quake centered on elliott bay, a tsnuami could indeed overwhelm pioneer square.
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it’s like thumping a tub of water: initially the water moves away from the vibration; on a big scale, it returns to the place it vacated – quickly and with a vengeance.

austin March 15, 2011 (8:04 pm)

Everybody’s such a frickin expert, no wonder nothing ever gets done.

Dawson March 15, 2011 (8:23 pm)

How long did it take folks to get back from work during the snow storm before thanksgiving? Just saying. Acknowledge that Seattle needs to move forward and misleading reports like CNU’s aren’t the way forward

Mike March 15, 2011 (8:30 pm)

Regarding a recall, it’s not unheard of. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704164204576203242339123856.html

Julie March 15, 2011 (8:32 pm)

I am for a recall – definitely will sign the petition! I don’t feel I can trust anything this Mayor says based on the lies he told just to get elected.

redblack March 15, 2011 (10:28 pm)

austin: there’s that american appreciation for ingenuity that i love. no one here questions the “experts,” which is why we end up paying for questionable, overpriced decisions.
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this one (DBT) might kill people by leaving AWV open until 2016.
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dawson: false equivalence. no viaduct, no low bridge, no high bridge. you’ll have just as hard – or easy – a time leaving downtown with or without a tunnel. it’s getting through downtown that will change.

Dawson March 16, 2011 (7:08 am)

Oh there’s no false equivalence RB. Folks trying to get north had equally bad time. Gridlock is gridlock period. The DOT out here try to keep existing roads open during construction which is partly why replacements are so expensive here. Couple that with community activists that think they have a better solution yet don’t know anything about the engineering of said options and we get the other kind of gridlock

redblack March 16, 2011 (8:06 am)

dawson: look at it this way: we’re just now having the discussion that we should have been having before WSDOT, gregoire, and city council tried to pull the tablecloth out from under the dishes.
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no one is stopping anything yet. the final EIS for the DBT is months away, and it can’t proceed until then. and it might have some surprises in it.
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until then, we’re just neighbors kicking it around, so to speak, and we shouldn’t make this personal. having said that, i find it curious that when tunnel supporters can’t answer legitimate questions raised by us skeptics – or when we point out flaws in the plan – or debunk talking points – the supporters get a little hostile.
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as far as addressing “delays” or “obstruction” by mcginn and others, i think we should have an instant run-off vote with 4 options: DBT, shallow tunnel, surface/transit, or elevated. voters rank them 1 – 4, winner takes all. no crying. no takebacks. WSDOT has final say on design and route. work begins immediately.

Mike March 16, 2011 (9:07 am)

It amazes me people think the tunnel discussion started after our last big quake. It really started after the 1989 San Fran quake.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/reports/fullreports/363.4.pdf

Time and time again the tunnel option has been top for safety, longevity, ability to withstand natural disasters, etc. How many studies do people want?

foy boy March 16, 2011 (10:15 am)

Dear redback that sounds like a great idea. But remember we the people vote yes twice for the monorail. We the people voted twice against the sports staidium. And both times the politicians went against the will of the people. But to play the devils advocate the tunnel well bring in 4 billion dollars worth of constrution jobs. We all know that constrution workers are at 20% unemployed. Four billion dollars worth of constrution work would certianly help bring that number way down. But for the record I am for fixing the viaduct.

WS commuter March 16, 2011 (10:40 am)

We face three substantive earthquake risks here – the “Big One” – Cascadia Subduction zone quake off the coast that will give us our 9.0; the Whidbey fault, and most likely – movement on the Seattle fault. The latter two might cause minor tsunamis within the Sound (and on Lake Washington), but nothing on the scale of Japan. Marinas damaged, low areas with minor inundation … not mass loss of life or property destruction by tsunami. However, a 6.5 quake on the Seattle fault will destroy our waterfront if the seawall isn’t rebuilt, and will bring down the viaduct (watch the DOT animation if you haven’t yet for a model of how it might play out).

Any viaduct on the waterfront is a disaster waiting to happen. And we have to balance that against the transportation crisis we’d endure if the viaduct is unilaterally closed before the DBT is finished.

Having said all that … yes, by all means, recall McGinn. He is so deep in his agenda to kill the DBT and put everyone on a bicycle that he doesn’t care about much more. This latest bit is so cynical on his part. Recall the buffoon … where can I sign the petition.

redblack March 17, 2011 (6:16 am)

foy boy: any and all viaduct construction will bring jobs, not just the tunnel. as a matter of fact, the DBT will bring tunnel experts to seattle. other options wouldn’t require so much outside help.
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WS commuter: my feeling is that not having the viaduct there will inspire accelerated, ahead-of-schedule completion for any replacement option. will it be painful for a few years? you bet. all replacement options will be disruptive.
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even the magic tunnel is going to reduce viaduct access to one lane each direction at the ramps. do you think that won’t seriously fubar traffic?
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btw, you can start the recall petition. any of you can. i hear people clamoring for mcginn’s recall over [whatever happened this week]. so are you serious, or are you all just “bloviating?”
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either start the recall or get a piñata to beat on. but please turn off the auto-blame function on your browsers when visiting city and neighborhood web sites.