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March 14, 2015 at 6:16 pm #822538
dobroParticipant“Jim Wright + 10 members of Congress famously wrote a letter to Danielle Ortega in 84 to subvert Reagan.”
So, is that the Daniel Ortega who was the leader of a nation of 77 million people with a possible capability of producing a nuclear weapon? In a region we’ve been engaged in war with for the last 10-15 years? An area that controls a major part of the world’s oil supply?
Oh, sorry, I was thinking of Iran, not Nicaragua. No, the tactic of opposing a policy by writing letters isn’t unprecedented but I don’t think you can point to a similar situation in history that is an analog to this one. Hence, unprecedented.
March 14, 2015 at 6:37 pm #822539
JoBParticipantsmitty..
you are right, sabatoging negotiations for personal political gain isn’t unprecedented. It’s highly likely that two of our Presidents have pulled that stunt to win elections…
There’s Richard Nixon who scuttled the peace talks with North Vietnam.. promising them a better deal if elected.
http://freepress.org/article/george-will-confirms-nixons-vietnam-treason
it’s ok.. he didn’t keep his word to them either ;-) that war claimed another 20,000+ American lives before the war was ended.
And it’s highly likely that the tactic worked so well for Richard Nixon that Reagan and Bush pulled it a second time to put Bush Sr in the White House
Conspiracy theories? sadly, probably not.
That this sort of thing has happened before is not anything new.. but what is new is that it was done publicly…
these guys didn’t think they needed to hide what they were doing.
is this the new normal? Open sabotage of American negotiations with foreign powers by any politician who thinks he sees a presidential gleam when he looks in his own mirror?
it’s not a future i am willing to endorse no matter which political party produces the candidate.
March 14, 2015 at 7:57 pm #822540
JTBParticipantSmitty,
Do you really think a letter urging Daniel Ortega to have free elections was inappropriate and somehow undercutting Reagan’s foreign policy?
Well, given what is actual policy on Nicaragua turned out be I suppose one might argue that the letter was indeed out of step.
March 15, 2015 at 1:30 am #822541
SmittyParticipant“Well, given what is actual policy on Nicaragua turned out be I suppose one might argue that the letter was indeed out of step.”
So, what does that mean? As long as it’s a policy you disagree with then it’s ok to do?
When Republicans do it, it is “treasonous”, when Democrats do it, it is “patriotic dissent”?
Interesting.
March 15, 2015 at 5:26 am #822542
JTBParticipantI was referring to Iran-Contragate, Reagan’s actual policy. Yes, urging free elections was out of step with that, perhaps even treasonous to some. We can debate how much the interests of the United States rested on the outcome of whatever took place in Nicaragua compared to our interests today in what happens in Iran with their nuclear program. More pertinent might be considering the latter in relation to bombing them.
March 15, 2015 at 6:30 am #822543
dobroParticipant“When Republicans do it, it is “treasonous”, when Democrats do it, it is “patriotic dissent”?”
I know you’re trying very hard to make this a “well, they do it, too!!” thing, but it really isn’t. This type of action against an executive branch in the middle of sensitive negotiations with several other nations, including allies, hasn’t happened before. none of the examples presented are anywhere close to an analog of the Repub letter.
“I have to agree. This went too far, in my opinion.”
On that, we agree.
March 15, 2015 at 8:41 am #822544
HMC RichParticipantDobro. Democrats have interfered many more times in the past than I posted. Hell, Jim McDermott (Baghdad Jim) met with Saddam Hussein or did you want to not remember that? Paid for by Saddam by the way. He, Bonoir and Thompson must have had a nice trip. Did they go too far also? I mean, those 47 didn’t fly over there and meet with Khameini.
I support the Republicans. Completely. I love the shrill tones emanating from the left. Don’t hyperventilate too much. You might pass out.
Reminding the Theocratic Ministers of death a little bit about our system of government was a nice way of telling them that maybe something meaningful should be decided. If Obama would negotiate and put some teeth into the treaty then maybe the Senators might play along.
And Harry Reid’s antics the last six years will be remembered and now some consequences will happen.
Our President is dealing with a country that was relatively moderate in the past until Jimmy Carter and the others who did not understand the evil of the radical clerics stuck their nose in that countries politics and changed it for the worst. A country that is sponsoring terrorism and has said many times wants the destruction of Israel.
You might be inferring to me you support a Theocracy that discriminates against women, gays, and most other religions. You are telling me you are supporting the Ayatollah’s. That even a bad treaty is better than nothing. Since they will not follow the treaty, it is a moot point. They hate us.
March 15, 2015 at 11:10 am #822545
JanSParticipantthink on this, folks..this is not a trivial happening:
And, yes, i know some of you don’t like Bill Maher. I’m ambivalent about Sean Penn…and no comments about him being another celebrity. He gets this . Listen to his words and think about it…and remember the source…they’re obligated to call the 47 traitors , so ignore the title.
http://www.occupydemocrats.com/watch-sean-penn-makes-a-great-point-about-the-47-republican-traitors/
March 15, 2015 at 11:14 am #822546
JanSParticipantAnd, Rich…this is not about one upmanship, ..”well, he did this, and he did that, and blah, blah, blah”. Some of us think this is very serious.
And those incidents that you cite? Did any of them go behind everyone’s backs? I’m thinking not. Some of them didn’t even read the entire letter letter before effing signing it, at their own admittance. They were in a damned hurry to get out of DC before it snowed, poor babies. Nothing like taking it lightly, when it’s something this serious. :(
And a final word…everyone please stop calling it a “treaty”… it’s not, thank you very much.
March 15, 2015 at 4:21 pm #822547
SmittyParticipant“And, Rich…this is not about one upmanship, ..”well, he did this, and he did that, and blah, blah, blah”. Some of us think this is very serious.”
Hey wait a minute, are we back on emailgate talking about Condi and Colin, or does “they did it too” only count when convenient?
March 15, 2015 at 4:59 pm #822548
JoBParticipantSmitty..
so you think any stink is like any other?
One might ask .. if that was true.. why neither Powell or Condi were ever investigated for what the rest of the world calls war crimes?
did that witch hunt occur while i was napping?
i think not.
the point is the there is nothing so hypocritical as the kinds of attacks being made on Obama and/or Hillary as the Republicans making the attacks.
have you heard the saying that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones?
i think there is little more self defeating than throwing those stones and then crying out in outrage when they are thrown back.
March 15, 2015 at 7:37 pm #822549
JanSParticipantno, smitty, it was in the context of the 47 senators writing their subversive letter…and only that.
March 15, 2015 at 8:12 pm #822550
dobroParticipantI have a few minutes here, so let’s just look at this point by point…
“Dobro. Democrats have interfered many more times in the past than I posted. Hell, Jim McDermott (Baghdad Jim) met with Saddam Hussein or did you want to not remember that? Paid for by Saddam by the way. He, Bonoir and Thompson must have had a nice trip. Did they go too far also? I mean, those 47 didn’t fly over there and meet with Khameini.”
3 Congressmen. 47 Senators. And those Congressmen were trying to stop a war, not start one.
“I support the Republicans.”
What a surprise.
“Reminding the Theocratic Ministers of death a little bit about our system of government was a nice way of telling them that maybe something meaningful should be decided.”
If you read the letter and know something about our system of gov’t you’d realize that it was filled with enough mistakes and misconceptions to flunk a civics 101 class.
“If Obama would negotiate and put some teeth into the treaty then maybe the Senators might play along.”
It’s not a treaty. Its a multinational negotiation that is in progress and under the authority of the executive branch, not Congress.If any treaties are created Congress would have to weigh in and ratify them. What’s happening now is not a treaty negotiation.
“You might be inferring to me you support a Theocracy that discriminates against women, gays, and most other religions. You are telling me you are supporting the Ayatollah’s.”
Clearly no one here is saying they support any Ayatollahs. People are saying they do not support 47 Repubs attempt to derail, subvert, hamper,and break down important negotiations to control Iran’s nuclear ambitions. An unprecedented action carried out by a political party that seems to forget that notion that “politics ends at the water’s edge”.
“That even a bad treaty is better than nothing.”
It’s not a treaty. Turn off Hannity and read something.
“Since they will not follow the treaty, it is a moot point. They hate us.”
And now a little mind reading to wrap up this fact free rant. Actually, before the Iraq war Iran had a very large moderate population. There are 77 million people there. All of them do not hate us. Many of them would like more civil rights and freedoms akin to our Western systems. Dropping bombs on them is not going to facilitate that attitude. Step away from the TV and read a book. Or maybe talk to an Iranian person. There are some here in Seattle, you know.
March 16, 2015 at 7:25 am #822551
dobroParticipantOh, and one more thing…
“Our President is dealing with a country that was relatively moderate in the past until Jimmy Carter and the others who did not understand the evil of the radical clerics stuck their nose in that countries politics and changed it for the worst.”
For some reason you fail to mention Saint Ronnie’s sales of arms to Iran…you know, that whole Iran-Contra thing. And that was after jimmy Carter had messed up the situation, according to your history. Getting your history books from Texas these days?
March 16, 2015 at 3:23 pm #822552
wakefloodParticipantYeah Dobro, and not to mention that Ronnie’s boys contacted Iran and promised them something (hmm…wonder what it could have been?) to hold off releasing the hostages until Ronnie was elected.
Now why wouldn’t that count as both treason AND working with the radical clerics?
March 16, 2015 at 4:33 pm #822553
SmittyParticipantMarch 16, 2015 at 4:53 pm #822554
JanSParticipantseriously?
March 16, 2015 at 5:53 pm #822555
SmittyParticipant“seriously?
As far as crackpot conspiracy theories go, yeah….that’s my order and I’m sticking to it!
March 17, 2015 at 2:36 am #822556
JoBParticipantSmitty..
that Nixon and Vietnam thing
not so crackpot when George Will confirms it..
(the link is in post 77)
and the Reagan/Bush power play
pretty much accepted as truth these days…
911.. i don’t know.. which theory?
Vince Foster.. it is a tragedy that he was literally hounded by a press driven by Republican conspiracy theorists…
did he take his own life?
Kenneth Starr thought so
but who knows.. he may have just been covering his own backside
March 17, 2015 at 6:47 am #822557
HMC RichParticipantTexas, Mexico, Belize. I am Zinnophobic when it comes to history books. Although you are right about Iran/Contra. Even St. Ronnie made some errors.
One big error is Mr. Obama unilaterally ignoring or trying to change laws which are the domain of the Senate and House. So I guess since he is trying to act in the domain of the Senate and House, a little payback by the Senate sure has many of you up in arms.
Don’t be so silly. I have Persian friends. They are wonderful. The middle east has brought many good things to the world. Too bad Obama didn’t help those people when they started protesting a few years back. Whoops.
And I know how to read AND I don’t watch Fox News. Although one of the last polls showed the American Public Trusted it more than any other news site. With ratings flying through the roof to boot.
But, you see, I would like a strong treaty with Iran. But I don’t see the Iranian leadership supporting the letter or the Republicans who sent that. Don’t twist it. If Rouhani’s regime can moderate, then great.
But if the Treaty is weak, it will not be acted upon by the Foreign Relations Committtee. And it could sit forever if the Senate doesn’t like it. And if Mr. Obama goes to the UN with it, he will be circumventing Congress (again). I wish he understood our government.
March 17, 2015 at 6:54 am #822558
JanSParticipantIt’s not a treaty !!!!!
March 17, 2015 at 3:31 pm #822559
JoBParticipantHMCRich
” Although one of the last polls showed the American Public Trusted it more than any other news site. With ratings flying through the roof to boot.”
doesn’t that make you sad?
america trusting the network that gets the facts right less than 30% of the time?
March 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm #822560
dobroParticipant“I wish he understood our government.”
If there was a poll on who understands the American gov’t better, Barack Obama or HMC Rich, I think I know which way I’d vote.
March 17, 2015 at 4:29 pm #822561
JTBParticipantHMCRich, it appears your source presented a misleading, incomplete picture of how Fox news is viewed by the public. A nearly equal portion distrusts Faux News more than any other news site. Here is a quote from the Public Policy Polling article since it appears you must not have had access to the whole thing.
“When it comes to who people trust and distrust the most overall in TV news the answer is the same as it is every year- Fox News on both counts. 32% of voters say they trust Fox the most in TV news to 14% for PBS and CNN, 10% for ABC News, and 9% for CBS News. NBC News at 5%, and MSNBC and Comedy Central at 4% rate lower.
Fox News also wins out when it comes to who viewers trust the least though. 30% pick it on that front to 20% for Comedy Central, 15% for MSNBC, and 11% for CNN. No one else polls above 5% for least trusted.”
March 17, 2015 at 11:31 pm #822562
waterworldParticipantFox news may be both the most and the least trusted source of news, but it’s still on cable, yes? According to the Pew Research Center, a sizable majority of Americans still get their TV news from broadcast sources: 71% watch local TV news and 65% watch network news. Only 38% get their news from Cable channels, including Fox News. A very noisy 38%.
As far as Hillary Clinton’s decision to use a personal email server, of course it leaves her open to the accusation that perhaps not all of the pertinent email has been turned over to the government. And the same is true of anyone else who didn’t use a .gov address. Personally, I doubt that folks heading up cabinet-level departments conduct a lot of serious business via email, and I suspect (or is it just hope?) that Clinton, of all people, would be savvy enough to avoid using email to share sensitive information. That’s what secure phone lines are for. And besides, as JTB pointed out, the NSA has all of her email, along with everyone else’s. I tend to think that if there are emails worth exposing, the NSA will find a creative way to leak them.
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