Protest teaching abusive parenting practices in West Seattle

[JoB]

The West Seattle Herald has published an article on this weekend’s protests…

i did email them to correct the impression that there was yelling. there was no yelling on either side. There were a couple of verbal exchanges with one of our group who said that Jesus wouldn’t hit… and a lot of curt nos and comments on my lack of Christianity … but the only yelling was from passersby voicing their support.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/articles/2008/09/23/news/local_news/news05.txt#blogcomments

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[JoB]

jablin..

i am glad you too had a positive experience …

i am still unsure how spanking can be restorative and not punitive if the child is led to acknowledge their wrongdoing before you spank.

isn’t acknowledgment and a discussion about what could have been done better every parent’s goal in discipline?

what does spanking add to the mix that is restorative?

just something to think about as you discover the joys of parenthood.

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[WSratsinacage]

Congrats Jablin! Some thoughts for you and A Parent as I am a parent too (of 2 young ones). For me, parenting is “the toughest job you will ever love.” My wife and I have chosen to not hit and break the cycle of physical discipline in whatever degree it is applied. We give choices and there are consequences of lost privileges, etc and our approach has been very effective. Our kids have respect for us and know boundaries. They are full of self esteem, “play well with others”, do well in school, and are compassionate little citizens.

I am guessing you read earlier in the comments what JoB has been through growing up? I was abused to some degree as well. 30 years later it is still difficult for me to deal with. I literally cringe and avoid all situations when discipline is brought up in the media or among friends in conversation.

For me it has had a profound affect on my life. I suffer from things to this day that doctors and psychologists have stated is a long term effect, like depression, low self esteem, anxiety, anger, substance abuse, and relationship issues. I see my parents often and they are involved in my children’s lives but unbeknownst to them, I still hold their idea of discipline against them. If anyone chooses to hit, in any shape or form, this could happen to their child when he/she grows up.. is it worth the risk? I would characterize my struggle as on the mild side and I would not wish it on anyone, certainly not my own children.

I feel the way it was handled by JoB and others was extremely professional and non confrontational and reasonable based on what Tedd said in his book. From what I have read, it was J0B, JanS, and Kat who were not treated very kindly by some. I am quite conservative but when it comes to free speech, I am very liberal but even the most conservative viewpoint would acknowledge the right to their free speech and to peacefully assemble. I feel it is reasonable for people like JoB and I to be deeply moved by what we read in Tedd’s book and it is logical for us to speak out on what we think is harsh, inappropriate treatment of babies and children, of all ages.

I respect how you feel and it sounds like you respect our side of the issue. I said some things about your church that I probably shouldn’t have. I am sorry for that. Also, on one hand I feel it is important to make a distinction between what Tedd says in his book and Mars Hill Church but on the other, the church did invite him to speak so they are going to be associated with his comments. In other words, the church would not invite someone to speak who they did not like.

If I had to give a concession, I could see how a light to medium open hand slap on a clothed backside could get a 7 year olds attention, I don’t think anyone is disputing that choice that a parent has to make. What I and others are saying is that we do not think it is ok to inflict pain on bare skin, especially that of a baby/toddler. That is just unconscionable and illegal.

This has been great to talk about this with everyone and I feel like I am on the road to being a survivor vs. a victim. Thanks.

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[Zenguy]

Keep in mind that your child is the one that will decide if the hitting is discipline or abuse.

My mother spanked us a handful of times and I did not think it was abuse. In talking with her recently she said it only happened when she did not know what else to do. Obviously there are plenty of discipline alternatives now a days.

My father on the other hand was physically and verbally abusive. I stopped seeing him when I was thirteen, have only seen him a handful of times since and now my brother and I do not have any contact with him at all. He leads a very lonely life of his own creation.

Remember that the recipient of the hitting gets to decide what is abusive, perception is reality after all.

Are you willing to risk your entire relationship with your children?

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[WSratsinacage]

Well put Zenguy!

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[Anonymous]

Second that Zen.

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[JoB]

you guys are so brave.. this isn’t easy to talk about.. not even when you are nearly 60. and i don’t think it is ever forgotten.

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[Nico]

This response is to A Parent above:

A Parent says: “Mr. Tripp came across as a gentle, kind, witty man who really loves God, his children and grandchildren, and cares deeply about future generations”

A Parent, I must judge Ted Tripp by his written teachings. His book is his opinions without the veneer of his apparently charming personality. Long after he is gone, parents will be reading and using his book, and you know very well that it is being passed around like candy at Mars Hill.

There are many Christian parenting gurus who come across as folksy, funny, wonderful people. That is how they get a following. Many of these people teach abusive and harmful practices to children, but sweeten up the deal with ideas like “tying heart strings” or “finding your child’s love languages”.

People have testified time and time again that they got involved with a parenting guru based on the “good” parts of the teachings. In no time, they adopt all the dark, punitive practices and they are spanking their kids all day.

A Parent says: “I really wish the protestors would have attended the conference or somehow gone a little deeper on this subject, on the speaker, and Mars Hill.”

Let’s go deeper into Mars Hill and talk about a parenting sermon given by its main teaching pastor.

In the sermon, I heard Mark Driscoll testify to having “disciplined” his toddler son all day. At the end of this, he had a strange session where he held his son and began praying for him and confessing the child’s sins. Finally, his little son “broke”, in Driscoll’s own words. I dread to think what this meant emotionally for his son. This is Trippism at its finest, imposing a deep obsession regarding motivations upon a small child who is developmentally probably not capable of really understanding what is going on.

In the same sermon, I heard Mark Driscoll joke about how his daughter’s buttocks would shrink to “a quarter” of their normal size when he was preparing to spank her. He joked about how this was because of her fear of the oncoming slaps. Again, this is Trippism, with the daughter lying with her pants down across the father’s lap, anticipating pain to be inflicted on her bare skin. Rather than feeling sorrowful about spanking his daughter, Driscoll made jokes about her fear reaction.

This sermon is available on the Mars Hill audio site.

Does that go deep enough into what Mars Hill teaches about disciplining children?

“JoB seems like a very nice person with a big heart, but I disagree with how this was managed, and how my church was portrayed in the process.”

And here is the crux. The church does not want or like negative publicity. My guess is that all the chat on the member boards (and, honestly, the idea of locked down member boards really makes you wonder about the transparency of the church’s practices) has been about the potential harm to the church’s reputation. I’m sure that people like me are regarded as somewhat stupid, or heathen, and certainly not worthy of actually being listened to. Thank heavens that blogging helps me feel heard.

“… your blogs and protests will be a lot more reputable and meaningful.”

Have I been disreputable? Really? How so?

A final word: I have no question that you love your children, and you are trying to do what is best for them. I believe that the parents at Mars Hill love their children deeply. However, if you are sincerely wrong about your parenting practices, your children will pay the price.

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[Nico]

JoB says:

“and lastly i am concerned about what i observed myself that supported the church’s attitude towards women that has been mentioned in this forum… and the father spoke exclusively and not very politely for the family. Even when couples were walking together, the the men spoke predominantly for the family.”

Ted Tripp is part of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW). The council’s main thrust is to encourage the subordination of wives and women and the leadership of husbands and men.

Home

Tripp’s teachings about the submission of children go hand-in-hand with the hierarchical obsessions of the CBMW.

https://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Articles/Embracing-God-s-Plan-for-Authority

Tripp instructs women that they can model submissive behavior to their children by subordinating themselves to their husbands in the presence of the children.

I have wasted vast swathes of my life on the Internet arguing with “complementarians”, as they like to style themselves. I won’t bore anyone here with the details, except to say that you cannot really reason with them.

Mars Hill loves the CBMW.

Here is my favorite damaging quote from the CBMW:

“God gave men, in general, a disposition that is better suited to teaching and governing in the church, a disposition that inclines more to the rational, logical analysis of doctrine and a desire to protect the doctrinal purity of the church…”

This may be one of the reasons that the fathers going into the Ted Tripp conference did not listen to you.

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[Anonymous]

Nico – I respect your knowledge of this issue. It’s obvious that you know exactly what you’re talking about. From what you have stated, I also understand your concern.

I appreciate you sharing more information regarding this issue. Thank you.

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[WSratsinacage]

Yes, thanks Nico. I am glad to hear you chime back in to this topic which you started in another thread.

Once again, Mark Driscoll’s comments are sickening..

I also like peoples observations about the perception of abuse and the abusee being the decider in the end, not the abuser. That is the case for me anyway… For example, I feel I was abused but my parents wouldn’t think breaking a yard stick on me was abuse or stricking my brother in the groin so hard that I have blocked it out.. all of this because we were not asleep at 8:30 or whatever time it was. Insane.

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[Nico]

WSrats and Zenguy, I hope that some of the Mars Hill parents will read your comments about the effects that punitive parenting had on you and your relationship with your parents.

People drastically underestimate how pain and fear impact children. The objects and people who are associated with that pain and fear become irreversibly linked. How many people get a nervous feeling in their stomach when they walk by wooden spoons or spatulas in the grocery store? Who wants to get that feeling around their own parents or family, or the resentment which comes when you know your life has been harmed?

I’m going to put in a link to the Gentle Christian Mothers here. They devote MUCH time to Ted Tripp and others like him.

If Mars Hill parents are reading here, please read some of the info from these Christian ladies. Some of them have left their churches because of Ted Tripp seminars just like the one we had here in Seattle.

Some of these mothers have used his techniques. They warn how you can get sucked in:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=4921.0

A quote from the Tripp thread:

“Probably not what you want to hear…but my husband and I recently left our church because they were sponsoring a Tedd Tripp seminar. It was last weekend. We tried for 6 months to raise concerns, and kept getting blown off. Finally things started rolling with responding to us, but we kept being told that we were “taking things out of context” (no specific examples given though of what we were taking out of context), that we should just submit to the authority of our church, and finally our pastor told my husband that he DID believe than an 8 month old could be rebellious and should be spanked. That was pretty much the end of discussion–we left.”

Another quote by a Christian mom:

“I would agree that you should stay far away from the [Tripp] seminar. Immerse yourself in reading positive discipline books, articles, websites, etc. We are currently (I saw currently because it is a process and we have found it difficult to just make a clean break) leaving our church because of some similar things (but more related to Ezzo). Being around those kinds of people and teachings was absolutely detrimental to my relationship with my children and I have felt so much more healthy and clear-headed since getting away from that.”

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[WSratsinacage]

Thanks Nico. I hope comments here will help someone.

I was thinking about the quotes you put up yesterday from Mark Driscoll. They are so sad. Joking about abusing his daughter and the one about disciplining his son all day until he finally broke. It sounds like he is talking about breaking a wild horse which is sad in itself but we’re talking about human beings here and his own flesh and blood. I just cannot understand how someone could have this outlook on raising children. Driscoll should be investigated for child abuse. It is frustrating to not be able to get through to people who are so immersed in the church that people like us are just dismissed as crazy or non christian.

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[RainyDay1235]

Timely Salon article:

“Spare the Rod”

http://www.slate.com/id/2200450/?GT1=38001

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[RainyDay1235]

In my personal experiences (babysitting, sibling to 5, montessori teaching) I can tell you that physical discipline usually comes out adult frustration.

CONSISTENT non-physical discipline (100% follow-through on warnings, time-outs, loss of priveleges) is a VERY effective method. Children crave boundaries – and when done consistently and with respect, you get respect in return.

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[WSratsinacage]

Totally agree rainyday. Thanks for the link too. This quote stands out “It can be argued from the science: Physical discipline doesn’t work over the long run, it has bad side effects, and mild punishment often becomes more severe over time. Opponents of corporal punishment also advance moral and legal arguments. If you hit another adult you can be arrested and sued, after all, so shouldn’t our smallest, weakest citizens have a right to equal or even more-than-equal protection under the law? In this country, if you do the same thing to your dog that you do to your child, you’re more likely to get in trouble for mistreating the dog.”

I think one day, people are going to look back on physical discipline like we look back today at punishments (torture) in US prisons in the 18th century and smoking sections on airplanes in the 70’s. Second hand smoke and open flames on a plane now is insane.

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