Protest teaching abusive parenting practices in West Seattle

[Zenguy]

Voltaire is correct and one of my favorites. Another favorite, that does not necessarily go with this thread is “I would rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.”

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[Julie]

Zenguy, can you point me to where in Voltaire? Inquiring minds want to know….

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[charlabob]

This is really sad — I entered the entire quotation into Google (which usually works) and it claimed attribution (of “I’d rather be hated,”) to Kurt Cobain. I still haven’t found the original but wanted to report on really high-class plagiarism. :-)

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[Zenguy]

I studied sociology and remember it as one of my studies, but Google is amazing.

Thy this

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/v/voltaire118641.html

Or this

http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/Voltaire.html

Another favorite Voltaire quote is “Prejudices are what fools use for reason.” in French of course. Another fav’s is “It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.” Very approrpriate in 2008.

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[StringCheese]

I will definitely try to be there tomorrow evening. I found this following quote which I found a great rebuttal for those who can’t see past the “Bible is infallible and un-reinterpretable” crowd.

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What would Jesus do?

By Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf

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Some Christians use the Bible to support the practice of spanking. Especially the “spare the rod” passage from Proverbs. However, this is an illegitimate use of scripture. Unless these folks are willing to use the same kind of selective prooftexting to support THE BUYING AND SELLING OF HUMAN BEINGS (Genesis 17:13), SLAVERY (Ephesians 6:5), THE BEATING OF FOOLS (Proverbs 10:13, 26:3), THE SUPPRESSION OF WOMEN (I Corinthians 14:34, Ephesians 5:22), SANCTIONS AGAINST MARRIAGE (I Corinthians 7:25-38), INCEST (Genesis 19:30-36), and INFANTICIDE (Psalm 137:9), they’ll have a hard time explaining why they single out a passage from Proverbs in support of corporal punishment. It’s hard to conceive of Jesus ever hitting a child. For any reason! The very suggestion is contradictory both to what he taught and the way he lived. When anxious adults wanted to shoo the children away, Jesus rebuked the adults and welcomed the children. “Of such,” he said, “is the kingdom of heaven.” A popular slogan these days is, “What would Jesus do?” This becomes the most reliable biblical authority for Christians when it comes to hitting children. Jesus just wouldn’t do it. Why, then, should we?

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[Zenguy]

That is exactly our take StringCheese. Our signs will say the same types of things “Would Jesus hit a child?”

I hope you can join us, we just want to make our city a great place to raise confident, well adjusted children.

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[TammiWS]

Seattle Times today…

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008189313_marshill19m0.html

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[JoB]

Never underestimate the power of the West Seattle Blog.. This little forum has generated quite a stir…

that by the way… is being felt very keenly in Ballard. I think they will have the larger protest tonight.

http://www.q13fox.com/pages/video/?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=2926940

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/09/suffer_the_children#c1145524 Dan Savage!!!!! Warning…Please don’t open the extra links below the picture. they are pornagraphic

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008189313_marshill19m0.html

and you might want to listen to 88.5 KPLU… your local NPR station. There is supposed to be an interview by Jennifer Wing this morning .. that does not feature me:)

I had no idea that what started as a conversation here would end up with so much press.

This just proves that community activism works.. one individual speaking up can make a difference…

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[ellenater]

This is good stuff. i’m glad there’s a Ballard protest happening, too. I HAD to open the links though…because you said I shouldn’t. Next time I’ll listen!

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[JoB]

Locations of Mars Hill Churches

Tedd Tripp’s program on parenting is live at the Ballard Church.

ORGANIZED PROTEST,

Tonight.. Friday.. (9/19) at 6 PM at the Ballard Church

as participants are gathering for the program

protesters are meeting at the nearby Fred Meyers at a quarter to 6 and walking to the church.

ORGANIZED PROTEST

Tomorrow .. saturday (9/20) At 12:30 PM at the Ballard Church

At the end of the program.. as participants leave.

Protesters will meet at the nearby Fred Meyers at 12:15 and walk to the church

The Ballard Campus

1401 NW Leary Way, Seattle, WA 98107.

The program will be simulcast at all Mars Hill church locations

ORGANIZED PROTEST …

Tonight.. Friday.. (6/19) At 6 PM at the West Seattle Location

As participants gather for the program

We will meet across the street near the bus shelter at about 5:45

The West Seattle Campus

7551 35th Ave SW, Seattle, WA 98126

If none of the currently organized protests is near enough for you to attend and you want to make alternative information on Christian parenting available to those who attend at other locations, please join us by finding the church nearest you and standing in silent protest at 6 PM Friday and 12:30 Saturday.

The Bellevue Church

14615 SE 22nd St, Bellevue, WA 98007

at the corner of 148th Ave SE and SE 22nd

The Downtown Church

2333 Western Ave Seattle WA 98121

The Lake City Church

3524 NE 95th St, Seattle, WA 98115

Shoreline Church

Meets at Schirmer Auditorium at Kings High School

near N 195th St and Greenwood Ave N

Olympia Church

Meets at South Puget Sound Community College

2011 Mottman Rd SW, Olympia, WA 98512

Lecture Hall 26

The Mars Hill Church website has driving directions to all of their locations

http://www.marshillchurch.org/

I ask that if you choose to protest at Mars Hill locations other than those we have organized, that you treat program participants respectfully and provide them with other resources for responsible parenting…Handouts and Sign suggestions can be found at http://groups.google.com/group/stopthehitting.

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[JoB]

thanks ellenator.. i edited to explain why you shouldn’t open those links…

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[JoB]

People are asking privately why I got involved in this.

It’s too easy to say that i know first hand the damage that systematic spanking.. which often gets out of hand.. can do to children.

It is more than that. I really think that Christianity is at it’s strongest when Christians are offered a wide range of information and allowed to make their own minds up about what they believe and why they believe it…

It saddens me that anyone would use the Bible to promote child rearing practices that have been proven to be detrimental to the well being of children… and profess that this is the only way to raise Christian children.

I don’t know what Mars Hill Church teaches it’s parishioners about child rearing, but i do know what Tedd Tripp writes in his books and i know that those books are available in the Mars Hill libraries.

For those that point out that Tedd Tripp has more to say than spank your child, i would point out that he has scheduled an entire hour at the end of his program… where a speaker drives home the messages of his program.. to spanking.

What can you possibly have to say about spanking a child that would take an hour to say?

I just think the parents that attend those seminars need to learn what other Christians have to say about raising children.

And i think it’s time we had a public discussion about children and discipline…

To spank or not to spank isn’t the only issue.

I know that it’s easy to say that it is their own business how they raise their children… and to a large extent, i agree. But when how they raise their children produces adults who impact our society negatively… then i think it is imperative that they are at least exposed to better options.

I think a good child is one who knows how to make good decisions. Tedd Tripp thinks a good child is a submissive child.

In the long run.. i would rather have a somewhat unruly and questioning child that makes good decisions for himself and others than a submissive child whose only choices are to submit or rebel.

This is just what i think and what motivates me.

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[Dave]

It’s great to see so many voices concerned over the pain of that can arise through spanking.

As a fetus can feel pain in the womb, the abortion process is an the apex of pain inflicted on young ones(some disagree with the statement, but the arguments are philosophical without proof – we do know that fetuses react strongly to physical stimuli).

I think I’ve come to the right place to advertise participation in an upcoming protest of a local abortion clinic (totally peaceful, we’re not the crazy zealot type). Let’s stand together against needless pain inflicted on children!

More info to come – looking forward to your responses!

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[JenV]

great Dave- I will be there protesting the protesters at the abortion clinic! keep your religion out of my womb, thanks very much.

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[FullTilt]

“we’re not the crazy zealot type” Sounds like you are.

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[Dave]

Who said anything about religion? We are talking about protesting that children don’t deserve pain through spanking, I would think that protesting that children don’t deserve pain through abortion is pretty parallel.

How do I sound like a crazy zealot? I was trying to distance myself from the likes of idiots that resort to threats and violence…

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[beachdrivegirl]

First of all welcome Dave. It is always ncie to hear fresh new voices on the forum, even if they differ from some of the members positions. It is always educational to hear both sides of the argument.

I had not actually heard the argument that a fetus could feel pain in the womb. I will have to look into that.

Feel free to educate me on my womb. thanks and again welcome dave.

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[JoB]

Dave,

i will ask you the same questions that i ask every person i encounter who talks to me about opposing the right of choice for women.

what are you personally doing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies and what are you personally doing to help improve the living conditions for children who are not lucky enough to be born to financially stable committed parents?

I have earned the right to ask by living what i believe…

i try to help young women.. even those who don’t belong to my family… to learn how to make positive choices for themselves that include not having children they can’t support financially or emotionally.

I try to do whatever i can to encourage and support young mothers who have children in less than ideal circumstances to make better choices for themselves and to teach their children to make better choices.

I give money to local agencies that help women and children to the slim chance at bettering themselves.

I quietly help financially support individuals through crisis when i can.

I speak up for providing adequate nutrition, education and resources for all children.. not just those who are privileged.

And.. i made the hard personal choice to have a child and give it up.. and have lived the consequences of that choice.. paying a price that far exceeds nine months of gestation.

Unless your commitment to living children is a strong as your commitment to the unborn…

it is a bit hypocritical to protest abortion on the basis of the possible pain a fetus incurs.

If your real opposition is religious..

i would remind you that you enjoy the right to choose your own religion and to practice your beliefs … a right guaranteed by the constitution.

but the same constitution guarantees the right of all citizens to pursue their own individual religious beliefs and/or moral beliefs which may or may not agree with yours.

As long as no law is broken, each of us has the right to make our own decisions.. and that includes the right of women to make their own individual decisions about the possible child they will be held personally responsible for without the interference of the state… and that right is protected by law.

I ask why your right to promote your personal beliefs is more important than that woman’s right to make decisions about what is best for her and her family.

If you are not willing to take personal responsibility for all children who are born… wanted or unwanted … if you do not advocate and vote to pay for collective responsibility for those children whose mothers may not be able to adequately provide for them…

then what gives you the right to demand that someone else carry that burden for you?

The right to life does not begin in the womb and end at birth.. neither should concern for the children who result from that philosophy.

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[JenV]

you can protest as much as you want Dave – but I guarantee my voice will be louder than yours. Here’s a thought- if you don’t like abortion, don’t have one! It’s my body, my choice. It always cracks me up anyway when men get involved in the abortion debate. It would be akin to me telling you what you can do with your testicles.

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[JoB]

dave..

sorry.. this triggered a real hot spot for me.

i hope if you choose to protest, you do no more than what i will outside the Mars Hill Church.. respectfully hand out information… and respect their right to make their own choice.

I would still hope that if you choose to try to influence someone else’s choices, that you would also be equally willing to help them do what it takes to carry that choice through the rest of their lifetime.

And yes, i have made that pledge and am already carrying that out in regards to the Tedd Tripp protest.

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[charlabob]

BDG, here’s an article, backed by science, about when the fetus can feel pain. I apologize on behalf of Dave for the threadjack :-)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm

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[JoB]

link to the gogglepage for info

http://groups.google.com/group/stopthehitting

i tried the link i posted above and didn’t get through.. so i am reposting it. who knows what i did wrong the first time:)

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[Dave]

I respect you for the compassion you have for others and all that you do for them. I must admit my resume is not as lengthy.

Additionally, the burden of “taking responsibility for all children who are born” is a bit weightier than I think I am capable of alone.

Which begs a philosophical question: Does one have to have a resume (commitment to quote yourself) in order to not have a hypocritical opinion? Also, does one need to take what sounds like global responsibility on their shoulders to take part in expressing their opinion?

Do I need to have a litany of anti-war protests or green initiatives or habitat for humanity service under my belt before an opinion is deemed un-hypocritical when speaking on one of these matters? Does voting, or giving money count, or just action? Must I be willing to take total responsibility for those in war torn countries and for trees and forests everywhere?

If that’s the prerequisite, I for sure am done for as an activist. Anyway, just a thought…

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[Anonymous]

“what are you personally doing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies and what are you personally doing to help improve the living conditions for children who are not lucky enough to be born to financially stable committed parents?” – JoB

The above are great questions presented by JoB. I, too have a question:

Why would you have unprotected sex with someone you don’t even like enough to have children with? Oh, that’s right, because you can terminate the life of those children through abortion.

It has been documented, proven, argued that a fetus DOES feel pain. I know that it is much easier to believe that a fetus is nothing more than a tiny cell with no capacity for feeling, but anyone that wants to take that stance should research it.

I also believe that it is disrespectful to lecture to Dave on how to go about his protest. Why would you assume that his protest would not be as peaceful as your own this evening?

If you want to stand up for children, then go to the source. The parents. Parents should not spank their infants, but if they are incapable of raising a child appropriately, they shouldn’t be practicing unprotected sex in the first place. Abortion is too often used as a way to take away responsibility.

Welcome Dave.

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[Anonymous]

“one individual speaking up can make a difference…”

Let’s not forget to thank Nico for bringing this to everyone’s attention. I saw the post here, in the Ballard blog, and in the Seattle Times forum, where she was often debating others by herself. In addition, she has been maintaining 2 blogs for updates and information.

Thank-you Nico, for being willing to expose your own pain in order to prevent others from having the same experience.

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