Protect us from plastic bag, not guns

[JoB]

JT..

i want to share something with you that illustrates why i think anything that makes people think about an issue is a good idea.

Last night i had to run to the store to get a few things for dinner.. ok, it was a bad day and i had to get dinner… and i chose the Roxbury Safeway.

At I was leaving the checkstand i happened to glance down the line and every customer checking out at that moment was using their own bags.

This was at the Roxbury safeway where the Seattle ban would have no effect… and yet the conversation generated had clearly had an effect.

I have been in that store a lot.. and generally speaking i have been the only one bringing my own bags… a novelty that was commented on by the clerks.

Yet, last night, not only were there several customers with their own bags.. the clerks weren’t commenting.. they were just using the bags.

the irony is that i was walking out with plastic bags having left my own at home..

maybe it was the time of day and the kind of shopper who picks up a few things on the way home.. i don’t know.

but anything which makes people think.. ultimately makes a difference… because people want to do the right thing.

they just stubbornly don’t want to be told they have to.

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[Anonymous]

Each time you put forth your opinion, you combine issues. I agree with most everything you just stated and you’re preaching my favorite topic, education. I am focusing on one singular issue. A gun ban. There is no evidence to support it’s effectiveness.

Passing a law for the sole purpose of making someone think would create a legislative nightmare. I have plenty of things I’d like people to think about. Can I make laws for them too? And how would one go about evaluating if people are obeying these thinking laws? This is crazy 1984 Orwellian policy.

Now if we just want to make sure everyone is proficient in gun ownership, safety, and use, lets make gun education mandatory for all citizens. You can still chose to not own a gun, but if you do, you will know the benefits and consequences and how to use one properly. Kind of like, oh, I don’t know, condoms and sex education.

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[charlabob]

There is a lot of evidence to indicate the effectiveness of having fewer guns in society. I am less likely to be shot by someone who feels threatened by a leashless dog or a hitchhiker if everyone isn’t running around with concealed weapons. There is even more evidence to indicate that many kinds of guns should not be owned by the general public. Assault weapons?

It really comes down to what kind of society we want, since this is a societal concern. example).

Our attraction to gun violence is one of the many things that makes us the outlaw society of the world. I’ve known many foreign exchange students and teachers and tourists from asia and europe who don’t find this cowboy culture at all comforting.

I will now sit back, sip my tea, and wait for the barrage of “if you don’t like it here, leave” messages. I won’t leave becaue I like it enough to want to improve it.

Pardon me for combining issues, but I’ve noticed a disturbing increase in the number of postings that critique the style of someone with whom we disagree rather than the substance of the disagreement. “Recipes should be in the recipe thread.” “You combine issues … ”

We all know that there are factions of disagreements–cults of personality–cliques, even — forums are, after all, reflecftions of society. Diversions about style do not contribute to cogent argument.

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[islanddweller]

If I have to choose beteween the two, as the topic headline suggests, then yes, I definitely choose to be protected from bags.

To society as a whole, plastic bags seem to be the much more dangerous item of the two.

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[JoB]

JT..

there is little evidence to support it’s ineffectiveness either…

because we haven’t had gun bans in the united states that lasted long enough to change behavior patterns.

However, it appears the selective bans on guns in our convention centers and sports stadiums and airports are not causing the decline in attendance once predicted… and although tiresome. they do appear to be working.

So what makes this so different?

studies.. such as those you cited… can be misleading…

take the studies now being circulated on red light cameras…

current studies report that they cause more accidents because of people actually stopping and getting rear ended.

we won’t know the real effect of red light cameras on accidents at intersections until there are enough of them to produce a change in behavior patterns.

When there is an expectation again that a red light means the car in front of you will stop, the accidents should decrease… if the cameras stay in place long enough to make an impact on behavior.

gun bans have to be wide enough and last long enough to cause a change in behavior patterns before we will have the kind of data you think should be in place before a law in enacted.

We won’t know the true impact until behavioral patterns are changed enough that you can assume the person looking you over from the other side of the street is not carrying a gun.

laws aren’t passed for the sole purpose of making people think… and i didn’t state or imply that they were. they are enacted to enhance public safety

however, the mere proposal of this law has created discussion which makes some people think… and that’s a good thing.

Some don’t.. or won’t. For some people the rhetoric is far more important than any solution..

and for some the rhetoric is a stalling device… insisting that a perfect solution is proposed is one way to make sure that there is no solution.

I am not saying that you are one of those people JT.. but we have ample evidence of their effectiveness in the sadly lacking public transportation system in Seattle..

I don’t think there is much more for me to say here. anyone who could be induced to think further on the subject of gun control by anything i have to say has already chewed this subject and spit it out.. so being solution oriented.. i think i am going to do the same.

have a great weekend.

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[vincent]

Your argument is filled with emotional pleas and loops all around various talking points with the only anchor being fear of the unknown. Fear of other people with freedoms, and it would seem fear of what you would do with the same freedoms as another person, ( Your constant projection of people with legal firearms flashing them and firing into public).

Ultimately your opinions are just that, and sadly they weigh very heavily on anecdotal evidence. You also are pushing for legislation that is against the spirit of this countries bill of rights, but has immense fascist implications on its own. all facts you choose to ignore in the view that your personal *ideal* of safety is more important than facts.

You live in a country that has a right to bear arms, and that right extends to public places. Parks are public places, they are not the property of the city, or the mayor. Supporting this ban is not only ridiculous, and short sided its wasteful, as it will be easily defeated in court.

Freedom is a tricky thing, with any rights, you have to take the good with the bad, for every I have a dream you have to also accept racist diatribes. Or you dilute the point of all of it, as people seem more and more apt to forget as time goes on and this country gets less free every day.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JT your post in 99 is brilliant. I could not agree more with what you said there.

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[JoB]

i had dinner at Blackbird the other night and had their sweet and hot carrot soup.

i found it greatly improved with the addition of a couple of tablespoons of the satay sauce…

it’s amazing what you can improve by adding a little peanut sauce.

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[mellaw6565]

LOL JoB! I’m with you 100% on all of your sentiments posted here.

Vincent – once again, no one is talking about taking away your freedom or your right to own a gun. Your evidence about what the Framers intended is also anecdotal at best and so is your claimed right to carry a gun whenever and wherever you feel like it.

It is clear that the government is allowed to impose reasonable restrictions on gun ownership in the interest of public safety. That is what we are talking about, not about your right to own a gun in general. Quit being so dramatic and angry – “fascist implications” – please! Get a grip!

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[Anonymous]

I find posting recipes and comments that don’t relate, in any way, to the topic being discussed, not only immature, but also disrespectful.

Someone on this forum said, in defense of that behavior, that the reason they do it is because they can’t think of something nice to say.

I don’t understand why you would post anything then. If you really can’t think of anything nice to say, or a logical argument to what is being discussed, don’t post. Why is that such a hard option to choose?

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[charlabob]

Mellaw/JoB you’re both so right on all counts — the satay sauce does wonders. OTOH, the sauce on the crab cakes would also have enhanced the soup. OYAH, I do think we might want to discuss the fascist implications of calling everything fascist.

Oddly, in most societies, respect is earned — it can hardly ever be demanded. Well, it can but it doesn’t work. OTOH, one can demand more salt and less pepper — seasoned to taste.

In my lexicon, “Immature” and “Disrespectful” border on namecalling. That is to say, they are names and someone is being called them.

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[Anonymous]

Yet another thread (and interesting discussion) deteriorated!

So sad.

Which reminds me (and since posting about nothing has become the topic here), I feel really sad for people that lack the inability to be open, tolerant and accepting of other’s opinions. Seems to me that would be a really boring life. I just feel sad for them.

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[HP]

lets not let it deteriorate, i have been swayed a bit by this thread and have seen many good points, i for one do not see any reason at all an average civilian would need to have an automatic\assault weapon. Forgive my ignorance but are these guns legal? if so what can be done to change that? and what can we do to get the process for getting a concealed weapons permit tightened up. And the ability to legally obtain a gun made harder and the punishment stiffer for those who break the law and carry illegal guns. And even more severe punishment for those who hurt or kill people with these guns. And more reaching out to the at risk youth who turn to violence and a life of crime because they havent been shown how to be a productive member of society by their home\family life.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I think that the point of some on this thread HP is that by making things illegal the government loses the ability to regulate these items. I for one would rather have guns being kept legal but making gun sellers more accountable. And yes those that hurt or kill others being even more severly punished.

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[barb]

charlabob, seriously, someone posts something ridiculous like how they like the peanut sauce at a restaurant, and when someone else says it is immature and disrespectful you decide that those words are name calling? I think it IS immature that a post about guns deteriorates to you, mellaw and the ever so followed JoB making stupid comments about peanut sauce. If you don’t like the context of where the post is going such as the fact that people have opinions other than yours, then just move the H*ll on and post your satay comments elsewhere.

In regards to the gun issue, making it illegal for people who have legally obtained and licensed their guns will NOT make it so the people that shoot up a crowd at a festival won’t have guns. That’s what makes those people bad people, because they don’t do things legally. And people who have legally obtained/licensed their guns should not be penalized because of that.

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[mellaw6565]

Barb – I didn’t make any statements about peanut sauce, but just chuckled at JoB’s de-escalation technique. Please don’t lump people together when trying to make your point – if that’s what it was.

And everyone needs to lighten up if we are going to continue to have these debates.

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[mellaw6565]

Interesting this decision came out today in light of this thread:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/377123_folklife30.html?source=rss

I love the exchange between the attorney, the judge and the LEGAL gun carrier:

“For people who think they need a gun in a public place, they should have second thoughts,” Hammer told Trickey.

“No kidding,” the judge answered, without humor.

After hearing an apology from Grainger, Trickey called the 22-year-old’s decision to bring a gun to a crowded public gathering “a colossal lapse of judgment.”

(end)

Also, I love the fact that the LEGAL gun carrier was sentenced to continue treatment for heroin addiction. Now that’s the kind of LEGAL gun carrier I want around kids and people in my public parks!

Proves your point, eh JoB?

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[beachdrivegirl]

Thank you barb! B/c personal i think that NR was dead on at identifying not individuals as immature but behaviors . Mature adults have enough behavior skills to respect and respond accordingly to a topic to better themselves as a person especially when educating themselves with opinions that differ from theirs.

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[JoB]

I can see where cracking down on those gun dealers would make a difference.

if you buy a gun from a licensed gun dealer, they need to make a copy of your driver’s license and file a report (basically a felony record request) and make you wait three days to come pick up your gun.

what, you say.. Is that all?

yup.

same with an assault rifle… you know.. automatic weapon with which you can kill the greatest number of people in the shortest amount of time.

However, if you need a gun faster than that, all you have to do is go to a gun show and buy a used weapon.

i don’t think they even have to ask for your driver’s license and they file no request for a felony search.

And you can buy any kind of gun you want.

And yo can walk out with it right away.

And those are what are called legal weapons.

Getting a carry permit takes a bit more paperwork than that.. and depending upon where you live you might even have to show that you can fire your gun and at least hit the target…

to be honest, i don’t know what it takes here since i am not interested…

but i have had a carry permit in another state and they just checked for outstanding warrants and flirted with my cute little young self before issuing it.

That’s the process folks.. guns are far less regulated than cars.

and you don’t even have to buy insurance.

doesn’t that make you feel safe?

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[beachdrivegirl]

I would much rather have those processes in place or in fact make those processes more intense than to make an asinine law of making guns illegal in a PUBLIC place such as a park. That is a band aid feel good position which is taking a step back from a solution.

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[JoB]

barb..

i think learning to add satay sauce to a carrot soup that had too much curry and hot sauce adds as much to this conversation as someone who knows nothing about guns or gun laws calling me a frightened emotional old lady.

if we are going to be irrelevant, i think i should get to choose what i will be irrelevant about.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Job, since when did you become the sheriff in town who got to tell who did and did not know about guns and gun laws. I thank god we had sheriff barb and NR tonight to bring us at the topic at hand and call the b.s on people trying to change the topic. If you want a new topic start a new thread if you get shot down in your opinion admit you are wrong and move on. It is that simple.

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[JoB]

i got curious and just checked.

To get a concealed weapon permit in washington, they simply want to know who you are and if you are or are about to be a felon.. and if you have ever had a concealed weapons permit revoked before.. oh.. and if you are of age.

not so different than Arizona.

you don’t have to prove that you can actually use your gun to carry a concealed weapon.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.070

and you all wondered why i make the statement that most of the people carrying weapons are more likely to have them used against them than to defend themselves.. or you.. with them.

well, i make that statement because that is what my law enforcement family members and friends tell me.. and they ought to know.

like i said, gun ownership is a huge responsibility that is not approached very responsibly in this country.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

at what point do you think i got shot down?

i just got tired of suffering fools who think it is ok to call other people names.

you could take some of your own advice…

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[Anonymous]

BDG, as I said earlier, you can’t debate logic and emotion. That’s why religion is so prolific. There will always be an example to justify an opinion, and if the object is to win, it will never happen when you’re dealing with irrational thought. Next thing you know someone will have their eye poked out with a pine cone and our parks will consist of open fields. Although, I guess those flying stray bullets will be more visible. One can only hope people will chose to become informed and vote with their intellect.

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