Protect us from plastic bag, not guns

[Anonymous]

Does experience show gun bans work verses stronger punishment for crimes committed with a gun.

Justice Breyer wrote, violent crime in Washington has increased since the ban took effect in 1976. “Indeed,” he continued, “a comparison with 49 other major cities reveals that the district’s homicide rate is actually substantially higher relative to these other cities than it was before the handgun restriction went into place.”

The international experience is no less complex. Justice Breyer cited one study finding, in the justice’s words, “that strict gun laws are correlated with more murders, not fewer.”

btw, not a gun owner, not wanting to be

Share This

[mellaw6565]

With Justice Breyer you have to consider the source and his view of the 2nd amendment. And as someone who coaches students in gun control debates, it is a complex issue with many studies on both sides.

Share This

[Anonymous]

Mellaw6565, I totally agree. Many sides. But some people only want to hear one.

Share This

[mellaw6565]

True – Some people hear restriction and think the 2nd Amendment is being repealed altogether instead of looking at whether a restriction is reasonable in relation to the goal you want to reach.

Share This

[JoB]

I have never said that guns should be banned…

although i admit that i thought so until the current administration and the employment of Blackwater domestically reminded me that having guns to form a militia isn’t such a bad idea..

But i do believe in restrictions that improve public safety.

Those restrictions don’t prevent anyone from owning a gun.. but they do help to ensure that anyone who owns a gun will use one more responsibly.

whether we are talking about the gun ban proposed for our local parks..

or about requiring training and competency for gun ownership..

or restrictions on the ownership of automatic weapons…

Share This

[mellaw6565]

I agree with you 100% JoB!

Share This

[beachdrivegirl]

But you have implied that you think guns should be banned, JoB otherwise your personal experiences with accidentaly shootings would be irrelevant.

Share This

[Anonymous]

“But i do believe in restrictions that improve public safety”

Exactly my point. Thank-you. There is nothing to suggest we are in danger from gunfire in our city parks. What is there to improve?

Share This

[mellaw6565]

JT – you mean other than the shooting incident at Folklife?

Share This

[JohnM]

NR- I am here (for a second anyway — been getting ready to go to California for my son’s wedding).

I started this thread somewhat sarcastically because our Mayor and Council rushed — yes rushed — the plastic bag ban in law, yet put a hold on a gun ban. I believe in doing good things for the environment (I recycle enough to fill two containers each pick-up day and throw everything possible into the yard waste container) but they seem to want to hurry things that seem insignificant (to me) compared to things that are truly (in my opinion) worth rushing into.

I happen to believe that gun control is becoming more and more a a realistic need in our lives. You can’t watch the news without seeing a story of somenone being shot, or held or car-jacked at gunpoint.

Now, I’m not a real deep thinker like some posters are, but I can’t figure out how owning a gun enriches any of our lives. I do not happen to own one, and shot one once because I had to in basic training. How does a gang, or a single person having a gun, help maintain a well regulated militia??? Just because it’s in the constituton, doesn’t mean it is a “good thing” (see electoral college and prohibition). Life is not the same as when that amendment was adopted.

And those who adhere to “From my cold dead hands”.. it’ll probably be pryed by the thug who shot you in the park.

Now folks, rip away……..

Share This

[mellaw6565]

Amen John:)

Share This

[Anonymous]

Is it your opinion a law should be passed concerning every singular incident? Are we still at the anecdotal evidence stage? What law do suggest for the person who gets trampled to death at a festival? Ban people congregating? Are you really concerned about public safety?

Let’s ban all auto’s. Public transportation only. 40,000 deaths a year on public roadways. It’s pretty emotionally devastating to lose a loved one that way as well. That’s it. I’ve decided. I hate cars. Not the reckless drivers. Just cars. That’s my position and I’m sticking to it.

Share This

[Anonymous]

JohnM – lol, thanks for replying. Enjoy your son’s wedding! And the weather!

This is a great debate that could, literally, go on and on….

My question, at this point would have to be addressed to mellaw (it’s obvious that you have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject):

What will be done to ensure that guns are banned from public parks? Stricter penalties for those who violate the ban? Constant police patrol?

The incident at Folklife seems to have initiated with an argument breaking out over the fact that the gunman HAD a gun (he had a valid license to carry). They have not yet determined how the gun was released from his ankle holster.

As JT stated, are we making laws based on singular incidents? When was the last time something like this happened? If we do pass laws based on singular incidents, everything would be banned. Take a moment and think about it.

Share This

[mellaw6565]

JT – isn’t one incident more than enough when it comes to guns? Yes, there are more deaths by autos, but they are a necessary evil in most areas of our country and strict penalties do apply for negligent use. To me, carrying guns into a public park doesn’t rise to the same level of necessity as using autos.

NR – I would propose, if it were up to me, strict penalties for violations of the ban. It won’t stop people entering with guns, but the first time someone gets severely prosecuted for breaking the ban will cause word to get out. For example, in Florida in the 1980’s we had a horrible rash of car jackings (w and w/o guns)on a daily basis. Some of them resulted in deaths. The Fla. legislature then attached the death penalty to armed car jackings and, after the first couple of prosecutions, the rate of jackings dropped to almost nothing.

I guess that’s what I’d like to see happen(not the death penalty, but more penalties). Increased patrols would be useless because guns are often brandished when police are not in the area and the increased administrative costs would not justify the restriction, IMO. But setting up free zones with greater penalties if violators are caught could be an effective deterrent if the judicial system backs it up with effective prosecution.

Share This

[Dunno]

Wow,

This thread is a flash point! This is why the media blows shootings up like they do. Car deaths are found in later pages of the local section of you local paper.

Shootings are a front page headliner and this whole thread proves my point.

Thank you all for some great reading!!!

Share This

[mellaw6565]

Dunno – one of the reasons I do this debate with my students is because it is relevant and is going to become more and more of an issue in the future as we continue to expand our population.

The other reason I do this debate is that there is lots of studies and ample reasoning on both sides of the argument that allow students to take a side and support it. I always keep my opinion to myself, although when my partner and I moved in together she was not allowed to bring guns into the house – it was a deal breaker and fortunately for me she decided I was worth getting rid of them.

Share This

[Dunno]

Mellaw,

From a media view, you get far more listners, viewers, writers, ect when it comes to the gun issue. Yet far more are killed by other means as

dangerous as guns.

I’ve never owned a gun or will, but have had one pointed at me multiple times by thugs and even one time by a policeman after reporting a break in across the street. He came around a corner of my house and I was looking down a barrel of whatever they carry. In all these situations, I’d be dead now if I had had a gun.

Share This

[JoB]

Thank you dunno.. my point exactly…

and thank you New Resident…

“The incident at Folklife seems to have initiated with an argument breaking out over the fact that the gunman HAD a gun (he had a valid license to carry). They have not yet determined how the gun was released from his ankle holster.”

this is exactly why my brother does not believe that you are safer carrying a weapon than you are without one….

as for my personal experiences beachdrivegirl.. the gun that killed my family members was a legally licensed gun that was kept in a locked gun safe…

but she gave her teenage son the combination and he gave it to his teenage friend…who used it to murder them all.

legally licensed guns in the hands of people who do not use them responsibly kill people… and that includes my cousin who had no business giving the combination of that gun safe to her teenage son… and learned that the hard way.

it also includes the person who threatened me with a gun and nearly used it.

the process of being legally licensed to carry a concealed weapon is not rigorous enough to weed out those who might let their emotions get the better of them during an altercation in a public park… including but not limited to exposing the weapon as a method of intimidation… an invitation to have it taken from you and used on you.

A gun should never be exposed or drawn unless you intend to use deadly force.. that means you truly intend to kill someone with it immediately.

Why would i think that is a good idea to send armed but not trained individuals into our parks with weapons that are as likely to kill them or someone else when it is so much safer for everyone to retreat and call the police?

my comments about stray bullets assumed that those who would carry weapons into the park would retain control of those weapons if they were used… not necessarily a good assumption on my part… but an attempt not to offend those who choose to carry.

Our shoot em up video culture has bred a lack of respect for firearms and a lack of understanding of the responsibility inherent in possessing and carrying a gun.

There are valid uses for guns in our society… but carrying a concealed weapon to public functions isn’t one of them unless you have been thoroughly trained to evaluate threats and respond appropriately and have a valid reason to believe that your life could be endangered.

It is highly likely that any policy banning guns would include an exception for those who can prove they have been so trained…

However, most of those who would protest their right to carry guns into our parks are not so trained… are are more of a danger to themselves and to others than they realize.

Share This

[beachdrivegirl]

“However, most of those who would protest their right to carry guns into our parks are not so trained… are are more of a danger to themselves and to others than they realize.”

Whats funny is that i for one am not a gun owner nor will ever be but i dont think it is up to me to set the laws/rules into gun control. and personally, i think that quote is an opinion and very far from the truth but then again that is my opinion. and, IMo, but those carrying those guns into parks are not going to give a damn about a law that our mayor passes….but then again that is my $0.02

Share This

[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

it was indeed an opinion.. but sadly it is too close for comfort to the truth.

look into what it takes to buy a weapon in these united states and then explore the rules for obtaining a carry permit.

I suspect you will be unpleasantly surprised.

Share This

[Anonymous]

Mellaw6565, your Florida example is but more of the same. Selective cause and effect. You leave out 2 other actions. Florida passed a right to carry concealed weapon’s law in 1987. Many believe the knowledge that law abiding citizens may have a weapon in there glove box was the real deterrent. There also was a push to remove labeling of rental cars, as it seemed the vast majority of car jacking victims were tourists.

I am not a gun advocate. I would be happy if none existed, but they do. Millions of them, and you’re not going to get the genie back in the bottle. I don’t have the answer to crime, but I do know a stupid idea when I see one.

Share This

[JoB]

JT…

if this is a dumb idea.. and not a step in the right direction..

what is a good idea and would you support that?

Share This

[mellaw6565]

JT – “Selective cause & effect”? Not any more so than your attempt at showing lack of cause & effect with suggestions that there are not enough incidents in public parks to warrant this restriction.

Share This

[Anonymous]

Good question JoB. And I don’t have that answer. I just look at things like prohibition and our war on drugs and see how they didn’t/don’t work. I look at other examples of gun banning, and they didn’t work. All things I don’t want in the hands of kids and/or criminals.

On the surface, of course it seems a great idea, no guns in parks. Who does want guns there. But as you pointed out, and as the news and statistics bear out, the guns that kill kids usually are found in the home of a parent.

The parks measure, IMO, really is an emotional placebo having no real world effect other than to make us think we’re doing something.

It’s time to take the emotion out from both sides. The passionate liberals that want to save the world’s kids from harm, and the passionate conservatives who fear their rights being slowly eroded one step at a time. We need to stop fighting about who *feels* they are more right, and actually bring this issue into the light of day. Logic and statistics. I stand by that.

Drugs are dangerous, yet I would love to see them completely legalized. We can’t control what we can’t see. We can’t control the quantity, quality (overdose), dealers, manufacturers, or treatment.

Who knows, maybe we need to go back to everyone wearing a gun in a holster on the outside of our clothing. As I’ve said, I don’t have the answer, but until we discuss facts, we aren’t going to get anywhere.

And I keep getting asked, isn’t one death enough. No. Not for a law. One death is horrible. One death is sad. One death is wrong. One death is personally unacceptable, but one death is not justification for this.

And, yes, of course I would support a good idea.

Share This

[JoB]

JT…

i think a good idea is any idea that gets people thinking about what is wrong and how they might move towards making it right..

and it is clear to me that this idea does that. If nothing more, exploring the options will further clarify our existing law on gun ownership and the right to carry guns into public spaces.

we have heard the most noise on this thread about the rights of gun owners from people who don’t own guns, weren’t raised with them and know nothing more about the issue than banning them is infringing on someone else’s rights.

when you look at what is happening with legally licensed guns in this country rationally, you realize that giving someone a gun without teaching them how to use it properly is like turning your teenager loose in an automobile without first training them how to drive it… and then supervising them past the point where they become careless…

you wouldn’t turn an untrained teenager loose in a car in a public space for some pretty obvious reasons having to do with public safety .. and we shouldn’t be turning untrained people loose with guns in them either for all of the same reasons.

Nor would you teach a teenager to counter road rage by using his/her car as a battering ram… because it is more likely that they will be the one badly hurt by the confrontation….

but that is just what most people who carry guns to defend themselves are doing.. engaging themselves in a confrontation they aren’t likely to come out of well… and further endangering innocent bystanders…

it just doesn’t make rational sense.

no, we can’t put the gun genie back in the box,

but we can insist that anyone who owns one uses it in a responsible manner…

we can pass laws making it more difficult for those who see killing people as the only use for weapons to get their hands on those guns that kill most efficiently

and we can pass laws making it easier for police to remove existing guns from the hands of those who shouldn’t have them..

and make it less likely that any gun will be used in confrontations between honest citizens and felons or would be felons in our parks.

I believe that each and every one of those is a very good idea… but every one of those is fought on the basis of infringing personal rights…

often by people who wouldn’t own a gun and don’t really understand the responsibilities of gun ownership.

gun ownership is such a huge responsibility…

Share This

[Author]

Posts