Infrastructure decline…cause?

[DBP]

I want to make something clear. I’m not down on people who have lots and lots and lots and lots of kids.

(Sike! I really am.)

skeeter don’t you think crowding is a problem here? How can you deny it? Just look how bad traffic is getting around here. Why, they’re turning the Junction into a concrete canyon; I get claustrophobic just driving south out of there on California . . .

And . . . as if the Mormons and Catholics weren’t bad enough, now gay people wanna have kids too!

What’s next? Cloning? Sheesh!

*****************************************************************************************

wakeflood are you in panic mode by any chance? Kind of sounds like. Why don’t you just meditate for a while?

Also, consider this: Plenty of new infrastructure is being built in this country, but it generally follows the money. We’ve upgraded our local ports several times, for example. Ditto for the airport. –Why? Because those bring in money. Lots and lots of money.

Throw in a clutch of shiny new stadiums, with more on the way. Again: money. (Whether stadiums actually make money is not important. What’s important is that people THINK they make money. Plus, people are suckers for sports.)

The more money or glamor a project has attached to it, the more likely it is to get built. Decaying bridges will still get replaced, aging schools will be updated . . . just on a much slower timeline.

This problem isn’t new. It goes all the way back to the Romans. Which reminds me . . . What have the Romans ever done for us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

Share This

[wakeflood]

Ranting mode – sure. Panic – not so much.

But if you’re asking whether I’m closer in personality type to the Dali Lama or RFK, you’d be correct to pick the lesser meditator of the two. :-)

Share This

[maplesyrup]

It’s true that we don’t have that big of a population problem compared to other parts of the world. We have negative population growth in the U.S. if you remove immigration. I was just suggesting that when you run more and more people and more and more cars over the same roads, they will deteriorate faster.

Regarding food stamps, they are about 2% of the federal budget. That’s too high but given the times I am not going to cry about that.

But we spend 25% of the budget on defense (we should call some of that offense, really). WTF?

And another 6+% goes to pay interest on debt that is in large part a result of our national offense spending from 2001 to today.

Yeah maybe we should scrutinize spending on food stamps. But if we’re scrutinizing anything, shouldn’t defense be closer to the top of the list?

Share This

[redblack]

DP: yeah, it’s nice to have stadiums and port facilities and airports. but those things are only as good as the stuff they’re connected to: water, sewer, gas, electric, and telecom.

those parts are the most important but they get the least fiscal attention, and spending for their upkeep barely keeps up…

…with the obvious exception being the brightwater project. which got a little too much attention.

Share This

[amalia]

I admit I haven’t read through these, But I did search for “Eyman” and nothing came up. The unconstitutional I-695 ($30 tabs) pretty much destroyed the budget and plans for CIPs for the state. The transportation department of my company at the time laid off 60% of its engineers. Money lost would have gone to state roads (47%), local transit (29%) and the rest at city and county descretion (#s from Kitsap Sun).

Share This

[wakeflood]

Hi Amalia,

You didn’t get a hit I assume since I used “EyemanS” in my initial post on this topic #1. :-)

So, as they say, what goes ’round, comes ’round.

BTW – Agree completely. Work in a civil engineering company and tons of layoffs in the industry. Because as the right somehow seems to always conveniently forget in economic downturns, one person’s (gov’t) spending is another person’s income.

Even for hacks who have made a career (and quite a lucrative one at that) out of gaming the proposition system, unfortunately.

Share This

[skeeter]

“skeeter don’t you think crowding is a problem here?”

Hold on a second. Crowding and overpopulation are very different things. Is the U.S. overpopulated? I say not.

Are portions of the U.S. cities overcrowded? Well, maybe. But a lot of that’s personal preference. People want to live where they want to live. Actually, crowding is better for the environment than urban sprawl. The carbon footprint and energy consumption of a typical person in Manhattan is tiny compared with the rest of the nation.

Part of the reason I love West Seattle is we have these beautiful parks to play in and we also have homes located next to job centers (downtown, sodo, etc.)

Just because some desirable cities are crowded doesn’t mean our nation is overpopulated imho.

Share This

[365Stairs]

“Are portions of the U.S. cities overcrowded? Well, maybe. But a lot of that’s personal preference. People want to live where they want to live.”

Perhaps…perhaps not. Lots of people live in Detroit still…but I bet not all of them WANT to. Nothing against Detroit…but even watching a 1980’s movie with shots of that city then…has it improved much now?

There are some really nice areas of Detroit too…but values have declined and investors are likely to not want to put their infrastructure $$ there until the surrounding clean up. Sorry to beat up on Detroit…but it was on my mind.

Every city has its forgotten areas that need serious attention – but back on the affording part…Supply…Demand.

But…consider the old saying…”You can put lipstick on a Pig…It’s still a Pig”*

*No real pigs were used in the creation of this saying

Share This

[JoB]

interesting reading

http://www.aednet.org/government/pdf-2012/infrastructure_report.pdf

“In the short-run, spending on infrastructure produces twice as much economic activity as the

level of initial spending. These effects are most heavily concentrated in the manufacturing and

professional and business services sectors, but also accrue to smaller sectors like agriculture. In the long-run, spending on all types of infrastructure generates substantial permanent positive

effects across the economy as a whole. Money spent now will produce significant tax revenue

returns to the government’s budget over twenty years”

what surprised me is that in real dollars our investment has been relatively constant…

then i thought about it and realized that if the real dollars are constant

an increasingly larger percentage of those dollars must be being spent on maintenance of structures that were built before the study’s beginning date in 1967.

in general terms, the older something is the more it costs to maintain it.

Share This

[redblack]

skeeter: look up a guy named reverend thomas malthus. you and he might have agreed on a few points. i think he was a little kooky. but nonetheless, there is a standard that was named for him.

malthusian overpopulation is a term that refers to the equitable (or inequitable) distribution of resources among the population. the united states is 5% of the world’s population, but we consume over 20% of its resources. we are, therefore, overpopulated by that definition. we consume our own resources – and then some.

yet strangely enough, we have a growing number of people who go to bed hungry every night while others consumer three or more meals a day. and water. and gasoline. and electricity.

as tempting as it is during the holidays, i’m not being judgmental here. (not at the moment, anyway.) just stating the obvious and shedding some light on the term “overpopulated.”

but we are certainly not overcrowded – except by choice or necessity. i.e. we band together in urban areas to maintain short supply chains and distribute resources and labor more easily.

Share This

[DBP]

I don’t see how people can say with a straight face that population growth isn’t a problem, here, there, and everywhere. Are these the same folks who follow the traffic reports obsessively and kvetch about the long drives into work?

Not overcrowded? Ha. Let me list just a few of the ways in which crowding affects us every day.

 

► You can’t recognize your old neighborhood because it’s full of high-rises now. No more lawns, no more gardens. Just concrete and steel. We’re losing that sense of neighborhood and community we had just a generation ago. People don’t say “hi” to you on the sidewalk anymore. And why should they? They don’t know you from Adam.

► A bus passes you by at the stop because it’s already full. Don’t worry, there’ll be another along in 20 mintues, if it’s not full too. You have to wait in line everywhere you go. There are places you CAN’T go in your car now, because there’s no parking available. And at public events people are packed in like sardines. Bumbershoot? Bite of Seattle? Folklife? Forget about it.

► Prices are up for food, and WAY up for organics or any kind of food that hasn’t been genetically modified and produced using intensive, factory-based agriculture. Fish farms contaminate wild stocks and degrade the environments in which they’re raised. All for the sake of feeding more hungry mouths.

► Pressure on wildlife habitat causes mass extinctions, with new species threatened every day. Yes, building high-rises in cities slows habitat gobbling, but it doesn’t stop it. People in cities still consume stuff that has to be produced and shipped in from elsewhere, and that means taking resources away from wildlife.

 

It’s true that the term “overpopulated” is relative. We’re not as bad as Bangladesh, for example. At least not yet . . . But we can certainly see which way things are headed, so why not take action now? The closer you get to the edge of a waterfall, the harder it is to change course.

Share This

[JoB]

DBP..

do you see the irony in your post?

much of what you cited could be remedied by an investment in infrastructure…

Share This

[WorldCitizen]

I also see the decline of infrastructure being in no small part due to our failure to realize it needs to evolve. Streets should be kept up and replaced when necessary, but the population explosion necessitates new diversity in transportation to keep up with increased density. This helps slow the decay of what is renewed. Not everyone uses public transportation, but everyone benefits from its use. And I don’t just mean the environmental aspects of it either (as undeniable as they are). If I’m on a train, I’m not clogging up the road, making it easier for those who HAVE to drive. And less tires on the road, the longer the road lasts.

We knew our energy needs were growing at an amazing pace for the last 30+ years. Our thirst for energy is only growing stronger. Yet we failed to upgrade our grid to something more substantial, sustainable and secure. Now it’s crumbling under the weight of our needs. We need to learn from our shortsightedness and make improvements now.

More people being dropped into the equation isn’t going to make it any easier, but if we fail to recognize this now, we may be too far behind int he future to catch up to those who are making the necessary adjustments now.

Share This

[dobro]

Why do you think other countries who are not the richest country in the world (that would be us) are able to outdo us in infrastructure such as public transit,airports,etc often while maintaining a safety net for their citizens (health care,support for children and elderly) superior in scope to that which we provide?

I think a lot of it is the small minded hatred and distrust of gov’t that has been drilled into people over the last 40 years by right wing propaganda and Repubs efforts to defund govt services.

Share This

[wakeflood]

Dobro, World: Agreed, add to that a supporting element or two of lack of leadership and vision. And a false sense of American Exceptionalism.

The last “visionary” meme to take hold in this country was the end of “big govt”. From Reagan through Clinton, the Bushes, etc.

We need another meme. And we need the mouthpiece who can sell it. I would hope it would be an Apollo-level commitment to a 21st century green infrastructure. But Gore wasn’t able to sell it. He didn’t get the bully pulpit when Bush was appointed. And that minimized his stature afterward.

Share This

[wakeflood]

Really, when you start to look at what transpired, you have to think Bush v. Gore might have been the biggest game changer since…maybe FDR? And it will likely have impacts for the next 30-50yrs…

Justice Kennedy secured his place in history and it won’t be remembered as a good thing.

Share This

[DBP]

Jan, planning for density is a GOOD thing, but it is a two-edged sword. If we don’t combine planning and infrastructure development with some straight talk about population growth and resource use, then all we’ve gained is the ability to put off dealing with the crisis for a few more decades. And by delaying, we may be making the situation worse.

There seems to be a resignation in urban centers like Seattle that we simply HAVE to accommodate growth, that it’s un-American to turn people away. OK, if that’s the way you wanna play it . . . You can just wait until Seattle gets so crowded that people really won’t want to live here any more, but by then, the look and feel of the place will have changed quite a bit.

This isn’t merely a problem of distribution of wealth – but suppose I agree with the premise that Americans are taking more than their fair share of the pie. If that’s true, it’s even more imperative that Americans start having fewer children and that we limit immigration. Consider that a family living in Mexico uses a small fraction of the resources it would use if it moved here . . .

**************************************************************************************

anonyme, please chime in any time. I know you agree with me on this.

Share This

[wakeflood]

I get that these issues are all related on some level but maybe DBP and others should start a population/density/resource thread for that Malthusian discussions?

What I was hoping to do with this thread was to get perspectives on things related to infrastructure investment and many good thoughts came out of that.

See you on the next thread? :-)

Share This

[365Stairs]

The conversation is important…but when you have a city like Seattle, where if there is one, just ONE, solid snow fall (by area standard) completely blows the city budget to hell…you cannot say with any confidence that planned infrastructure upgrades $$ are there.

Combine the need with even some approved measures…you will still get it all built by the lowest bidder and quality workmanship suffers…

Perpetual “Break Fix” mentality….

Certainly there is solid & sustainable evidence of Re-Used / Re-Purposed old road & building materials that benefit lower cost construction…and there is more to explore with Power Grids enhancements needed too!

Share This

[WorldCitizen]

As many wires that can be buried, the better. Start with major commercial cooridors first, then to areas where paving needs to happen. Kill two birds with one stone.

There better be no wires to be seen on the new Alaskan way once the viaduct comes down.

Share This

[WorldCitizen]

Oh, and I’ll gladly pay more in property tax for above/below grade light rail. And not just one stop in the Junction, but multiple ones all the way down (under) 35th to White Center. You know, actually have it serve the population.

Share This

[wakeflood]

There’s a more current bidding environment in many places/projects, 365. Best Value requires taking into account quality of design/execution as well as cost is more prevalent than it used to be. Especially in the design phase.

Not to say that lowest bid isn’t still used. But I suspect that issue is a second-tier or maybe a result of the investment issues.

Needless to say, we’re waaaay behind and the clock ain’t stopping for us to catch up.

Share This

[wakeflood]

Hey, don’t get me started with the buried wires thing. I’ve brought that up with city light for around my neighborhood and I get the standard response which is:

It’s harder/costlier to repair when something breaks and two, if everyone on your street kicks in $20K, you can do it yourselves.

OK, my issue is with the first point. How much money would be saved if they didn’t have to fix all the suspended lines that fall down after storms??? Anybody done that cost comparison?? Bueller? Bueller??

Share This

[wakeflood]

Wow, hot off twitter a timely and pertinent recommendation for us all:

Going to pick it up myself asap. How Germany is transforming its energy and what the US can learn from it.

Share This

[dobro]

Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.

Yogi Berra

You can just wait until Seattle gets so crowded that people really won’t want to live here any more

DBP

Share This

[Author]

Posts