Atitudes on Bikes

[SeattleTech]

Why is it that the bicycle riders in this town all think they own the road and they are superior to everyone else? Vehicles, motorcycles, bicycles, skateboards and walking are all just different modes of transportation. Why do the people on bicycles always have the “holier than thou” attitudes? ~ Give me a break!

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[meg]

Most of us don’t have a ‘holier than thou’ attitude and most of us don’t think they own the road. We do have the right by law to ride down the middle of the lane if we choose to do so. It is often safer to do so than get hit with an opening car door or run over glass and metal shards on the side of the road. We do have equal right in traffic. I know that some do not obey the laws….but I would venture to guess there are far more car drivers disobeying laws than cyclists. I drive. I bike. Truly, both are scary. Everyone is in such a hurry. And people are pissed off in general (again, a guess, but an underlying anxiety about the state of the world??)…it makes for a scary situation for all involved. If everyone would slow down, be a little more courteous and thoughtful, and generally not move around as if they own whatever space they are currently occupying then I think we would all be a lot better off.

Bicyclists don’t act like they are superior—they are often just scared of big cars and need to ride on the offensive so they don’t get killed.

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[Cait]

I think bicyclists should be quizzed on the rules of the road just like us car drivers! It seems like either half of them would fail or just don’t care for the rules. This is not to say everyone, as I don’t presume to know every biker in West Seattle! But it seems that particularly on beach drive they become a road hazard! I too have noticed the attitude (particularly when to remind them, loudly, that Stop signs apply to them too!!!!) So I would appreciate the conscientious ones stay that way and encourage their friends to do the same! I am respectful and accommodating and I expect the same.

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[mellaw6565]

I notice a lot of bike riders here who run stop signs – very dangerous. One told me it’s because his feet are strapped in – not really a great excuse in my book.

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[JanS]

ummm…so he can’t stop? oh, please…what does he do when he gets to his destination, pray tell – lol? I’m picturing him running into the nearest embankment to stop his forward motion..bike ain’t gonna last too long that way – lol..

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[JoB]

Jan,

it is difficult to kick and reset toe straps unless you know what you are doing…

that said.. it’s time more bike riders learned what they are doing.

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[JanS]

I’m not a bike rider, never have been…it just seems interesting to me that once you’re in, you’re in…lol…still picturing a bike rider sailing through yelling “I can’t stoppppp” !!!!

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[rampinrodney]

Many of them, as I have stated earlier, are big time Lance wannabes. The rules of the road simply don’t apply to them because they are SUPER STUDS. You can generally see this type of bicycle rider screaming down some West Seattle hill, yelling obscenities at anyone who dares cross their path. Often, they can be seen hogging the road as if they own the biggest HUMMER on the planet. They usually dress up like Lance Armstrong but, unlike Lance, exhibit no class whatsoever.

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[meg]

Oh come on people…. I also drive the streets and have very rarely come across bikers exhibiting the kind of behavior you describe. Does it happen? Sure. Is it the norm? I think not. Every now and then I encounter a cyclist being an idiot~ but the reality is that it is nearly always on an organized ride (such as STP)toward other cyclists and not just biking around. However, I will say that when I am on a bike I am routinely having jerks in cars trying to scare me by swerving, throwing things at me, yelling rude comments at me, honking, etc. This happens about 90% of the time I am out on my bicycle. I am a both cyclist and a driver and I respect the difficulties and aggravations on both sides. My experience is that the jerk behavior tends to be from drivers towards cyclists rather than vice versa. The majority of us aren’t ‘lance wannabes’. If we are flying down a hill in west seattle, we are likely meeting the speed limit and really shouldn’t be impending your driving anyhow. :)

I stop at stop signs unless I am very clearly there way ahead of anyone else that might be coming and even then I come to a near stop before proceeding.

Can’t we all just get along…why does everyone need to be in such a frickin’ hurry anyway? Slow down, take a breath, think before you are hostile to either cyclist or drivers.

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[TrukMama]

I have respect for cyclists, but I have also encountered people on bikes that don’t pay attention to signs and go out in car traffic. I truly believe we can all coexist, but there needs to be some respect on all sides. Just a thought!:)

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[Cait]

Oh I certainly hope that Mr. I Can’t Get My Feet Out isn’t the norm. The next time I see it, I’m yelling for them to stop just like they yell at me ALL THE TIME to slow down when I’m going under the speed limit and giving them plenty of room. Sorry to say it Meg, but the yelling and abuse comes from both sides on this one.

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[cookiemonster]

SeattleTech, RampinRodney, JanS, mellaw6565, Cait and really any others of you who want to complain about bicyclists not following the rules. Please listen closely, because it seems you have not and cannot listen to other people’s posts: YES, you are right, there are some cyclists who disobey rules, run stop signs, don’t wear helmets, do all the many annoying and scary things you say. OK, did you hear that? You are right about SOME cyclists.

Now, can we move on to a deeper discussion about cyclists on roads that car drivers seem to think only exist for their use? Before you all freak out and say Cookie Monster is one of the uppity, do-gooder types, let me say this: I both drive a car and ride a bike. I do my best to obey the laws of the streets while in/on both vehicles.

Point 1: Streets are not exclusively for the use of automobiles. Look it up people, streets are to be used by cyclists and automobile users alike.

Point 2: Cars are more powerful, take up more space, and are more likely to kill someone on a bicycle than a cyclist is likely to kill someone in a car.

Point 3: There are many, many, many more cars on the road than cyclists. Why are you all not complaining about the many run red lights of the cars? The cars that go down 35th as if it is the fricken autobahn? Why, my friends are you focused on the people on the road with less power, less ability to kill, less speed, and frankly less anger while they are riding.

Point 4: If the cyclist said he “couldn’t stop” he was either stupid or lying. People do it (lie that is)….quit stereotyping about an entire kind of transportation and people that use it because one idiot gave a stupid answer to your question.

Point 5: I cannot tell you how many times I have been nearly hit, yelled at (not because I’m doing something wrong, merely because I exist as a woman on a bike on a road that some guy with testosterone poisoning thinks he owns), mocked, told to “get off the road,” etc. This happens, every single time I ride. Every single time.

Point 6: Given point 5….I have not stereotyped about every single automobile driver on the road, despite the fact that I have had more incidents with other auto drivers than with cyclists.

Point 7: I too have almost hit cyclists. It is really, really scary. I get it. It makes me angry every time. Just like it makes me angry every time a car driver runs a red light, takes a corner and nearly hits me, drives 60 mph down my residential street, etc. It is scary to be on the roads because we could die at any moment…let’s just try for a moment though, to remember who has more power, both physical and cultural, in these situtations. Car drivers.

Point 8: This whole thing about cyclists thinking they are: better than, holier than, etc. This sounds like a whole lot of defensiveness and guilt to me. Yes, some cyclists think that. Just like some Prius owners think that. Some people in general just think they are better than, holier than, awesome in general. This is not biker-specific.

Ok…..I think I’m done. Really, this car-driver vs. cyclist war needs to come to an end. Frankly folks, cars won….a long time ago. It is your world and we are just living in it. The war only ends in deaths….unfortunately mostly cyclist deaths.

So, while I hear and agree with many of your frustrations, I take umbrage with your stereotyping and resentment of people who are just trying to get about West Seattle just like you people who only drive cars.

The roads are for all of us…perhaps we could re-learn the concept of sharing.

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[mellaw6565]

Cookiemonster – I didn’t stereotype anyone. Just reported an incident I had with a bicyclist at a stop sign. Never said I had a problem with bicyclists – just an observation about some not stopping.

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[slyside]

Cookiemonster- read the posts before replying – I think you type faster than you think

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[Anonymous]

Not to mention it’s always a pleasure to be lectured and told how to think (PLEASE LISTEN CLOSELY!). And even though I’m not a man, I take a little offense to the testosterone poisoning remark. Good thing you’re above stereotyping, I’d hate to know what you really think about men.

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[Cait]

OK as a bicyclist you are going to critique my driving and I’m going to critique your riding. Get over it. People can easily get injured and killed by bikes and the obstacles they create on the road. No one is pointing the finger at you personally Cookie Monster, but thank you for your self-righteous tone which immediately made me not want to listen to you – but I did anyway. There are two sides to this argument and I acknowledge both.

I’d like to see some stats, so I’m going to make some. Watch for me on Beach Drive taking a tally of how many bicyclists stop for the stop signs, wear helmets and signal when they turn. Don’t make any bets because although you may be responsible I wouldn’t be so quick to defend all your bike riding peers. I appreciate and acknowledge that there are a number of you who are responsible, but like drivers, you are in a group of people who overwhelmingly don’t know how to be courteous on the road or need to be quizzed on their skills. Period.

I’ve caught myself doing some careless stuff driving, but I am responsible and conscious overall. But I’m not going to exhibit the holier than though attitude, talk in all caps and talk down to everyone here. That’s just great etiquette.

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[meg]

trukmama- when you say that cyclists “go out in car traffic” you are implying that they don’t have a right to be there. When in fact, they have every right to be there. If we wanted to we could go right smack down the middle of the lane.

Anyhow- really, I get the frustration of both sides. But in sheer numbers I encounter far more problems with car drivers not following rules than cyclists.

People here are talking about respecting each other. And I have to say that I am respected in a vehicle, where I am not on a bike. Especially as a woman. Knowing cookiemonster as I do, I know she does not hate men. This couldn’t be further than the truth. I think what she was talking about with her comments on testosterone is that, like it or not, women are often targets of men while we are biking. I have been yelled at by men while in bike lanes, on bike paths, etc. I have been swerved at and honked at close up. I have had comments made about my body. When you are out on your bike you become an instant target.

People talk on their phones, don’t use turn signals, put on make up, eat food, drink coffee, do suduko, make ‘california stops’, run red lights, speed like crazy, don’t stop at crosswalks….all kinds of things that are not ok to do driving. And somehow cyclists are the ones that seem to get singled out.

I can only guess that the hatred is based in fear…as most hatred is. Fear that you could accidently hurt someone. Fear is good. Going out of your way to scare some or intimidate them is like assault.

Let’s just face it….people are human and inherently careless. All we can do is do our best and remember our power and be careful.

Besides…with gas the way it is you to might end up on a bike just hoping someone will give you a break. Or at least not throw a soda at you. Or honk and swerve at you. Or call you names.

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[Caduceus]

Taking a tally of how many bicyclists are wearing helmets is futile. The law does not state where you have be wearing your helmet. You could have it around your wrist as you ride and be technically within the boundaries of the law and have it arguable in court if you happen to get a ticket for it.

Not to mention a helmet is only useful in very low speed crashes or falls. I.E. poor balance or an impeding trashcan. So the law isn’t really helping anyone in the first place.

A helmet isn’t going to help anyone in a bicycle to vehicle collision.

Meg- Of course there are going to be more Drivers making more mistakes. There are numerically far, far, more drivers. :]

I think the ratio of Poor drivers:Good drivers is only slightly more imbalanced then that of cyclists because there is a certain positive atmosphere around biking. (which could also result in elitism I suppose.)

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[cookiemonster]

A. I did read the posts. What makes you think I didn’t? Just because you do not like what I have to say, does not mean I did not read what you had to say.

B. I was not talking about all men…in fact most, the majority, probably 95% of the men I interact with and see on a daily basis would not fall into the category I was describing.

C. This is what I would call testoterone poisoning: yelling, “get off the f***ing road”; swerving as to pretend to hit you; calling you a f***ing b*tch; throwing things out the window at you; cat calls. These are things that I find inappropriate, rude, scary, hurtful, mean, and full of male privilege and power. I don’t see women doing most of these things…in general. Hmmmmm….I wonder why? And perhaps you are right…perhaps it has nothing to do with testosterone and really has to do with how we train men (in general here folks) how to show their masculinity….and some men decide that the way to show it is by intimidating others, often women.

D. I think and type very quickly…thanks for noticing.

E. JT….I asked folks to listen carefully because it really doesn’t seem like that happens very much on this site. If I failed to listen appropriately, I apologize. What I hear from most of these posts is a lot of complaining and generalizing about cyclists-at-large….not simply about one event.

E. Mellaw6565….you are right….you did not stereotype anyone. My apologies.

F. You all misinterpreted my tone…it isn’t self-righteousness, it is anger and frustration with the way in which cyclists are often maligned simply for existing and inhabiting the roads. My tone also comes from experiencing some very scary, life-threatening, soul-scarring events at the hands of car-drivers.

The truth is….I just feel really scared and sad about how this conversation about cyclists and drivers tends to go and has gone here. And, I realize I have contributed to that as well. I would love it, however, if some of you would take some personal responsibility for your tones and accusations as well.

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[Anonymous]

Meg, I don’t think anyone would ever dispute that careless, reckless, and rude car drivers abound. However, they are all those things to each other as well. I don’t believe it is simply the fact that you’re on a bicycle, as much as you’re just someone inconveniencing a selfish person in a hurry.

I also don’t think it is the fact that you are a “woman on a bike” that causes rudeness. Not a day goes by that I don’t get cut off or flipped off in traffic. I’ve had a driver roll down his window and spit on my car. He wasn’t mad, I didn’t do anything, he just could, so he did. Another man tried to break my car window with a crowbar (he was mad), because he thought only one lane turned when two actually did. Was sure I was keeping him from a lane he wanted by illegally turning at the same time. And lots of people get yelled at on the street, biking, walking, taking the bus.

There seems to be this inherent belief that cars are just out to get bikes, when the cars that do that are just out to get someone. There also does seem to be an attitude and defensiveness by some cyclists. As if none of you can possible be to blame for anything, because after all you’re small, light and living green. It’s gets tiresome to continually hear, but you could kill us, as the excuse for everything.

And, how many times are we going to hear, we have every right to ride down the middle of the street at any speed we choose, whenever we want. Yes, legally that is true. But all we’re saying is if you want to share the road, follow the rules and guidelines you expect of cars and act accordingly.

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[cookiemonster]

JT–you have simply helped make my point with the examples of all the stuff that has happened to you while you were in a car. And you are right…it is not only true that cars can kill cyclists…cars can kill other car drivers….but I don’t think that was the point of this entire line of conversation. It started with folks sharing their irritation at bicycles on the road.

And, Meg is right….legally, as you said JT, bikes have a right to be where they are. Safety-wise, it makes sense for bikes to sometimes ride directly in the middle of lanes (not always).

I agree with the following of guidelines and rules….perhaps car drivers and cyclists alike could follow that sage advice.

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[CMP]

As I’ve said before on other bike vs car posts, drivers should get out there on a bicycle to see that it’s not all that easy. It seems I’ve been quite lucky on my bike rides and have never experienced cat calls (maybe it helps that I refuse to wear spandex?), stuff thrown at me, honking and swerving. I generally follow the rules of the road, just as I do when I drive my car, with a few exceptions, especially when there are no other cars, cyclists or pedestrians around. I don’t think most cyclists are self-righteous and have a “holier than thou” attitude; for me it’s a sometimes faster way of getting around WS, I squeeze in some exercise, and get to relive my elementary school days when bike riding was fun. However, I’m a fair-weather, limited distance cyclist so maybe that’s why I’ve been pretty lucky.

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[meg]

Right on CMP—you are exactly right. If drivers would spend a few hours riding in traffic they might realize that it is not as easy as it appears.

And, JT, you have made a good point about just the level of aggression in general that is out there on the roads. However, you didn’t seem to make the connection of the power differential. When someone is out driving aggressively it is the cyclist that is more often than not going to get hurt/killed. We are smaller and lighter. It is sort of a top down thing. People (some people) like to pick on people smaller than them because, in a position of greater power, they can.

And some of it is because of being a woman. I have had many conversations with men and women cyclists—and the men generally didn’t have the experience of cat calls, yelling about their bodies, etc. Again, it is a power move.

JT: You said “And, how many times are we going to hear, we have every right to ride down the middle of the street at any speed we choose, whenever we want. Yes, legally that is true. But all we’re saying is if you want to share the road, follow the rules and guidelines you expect of cars and act accordingly.” Well, you are going to have to hear it until people quit thinking we don’t belong on the road. You are going to have to hear it until cars also start following ALL the rules and guidelines. ALL of them. ALL the time. You are going to have to hear it until we are not only merely occaisionlly tolerated on the road, but respected on the road. Until then….we’ll keep saying it. Because until everyone gets that we have a right to be there, people act like we don’t. And when that happens, people get hurt (physically and emotionally).

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[villagegreen]

meg – as esentially a non-biker I agree with everything you’ve said. I work with people who bike to work everyday and hear stories quite frequently about almost being hit by cars, drivers yelling at them, even a city bus honking and flipping the biker off. And these are men bikers.

If bikers have any attitude I think it’s probably caused by this continued harrassment by drivers. I know I would have an attitude if I was harrassed and threatened on a routine basis.

I think it comes down to two things:

1. People who complain about bikers never bike themselves and so don’t understand what it’s like.

2. The majority of drivers still don’t understand that it is legal for a biker to ride down the middle of a lane.

The majority of bitching I’ve heard regarding cyclists is shock and outrage that a biker was slowing down traffic by riding down the middle of the lane. If drivers tried biking in traffic they’d most likely come to understand there are very good reasons for biking down the center of a lane (usually for safety).

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[meg]

Thank you villagegreen!

I have even had metro buses pull in front of me and cut me off when I’ve been in the bike lane! It is rough out there as a cyclist!

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