Anti Christmas Acts

[ellenater]

Santa on a Harley?!!! Put some nice Bailey’s in that Tully’s and I’m there!

West Seattle…just when I thought it couldn’t get any better.

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[Cait]

Ellenater – you know I’m your spiked Tully’s hookup. Gotta love airplane bottles.

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

Good Evening fellow citizens. I love your answers. Please, please let me tell you that I do not want to hurt anyone. I did this for robust and passionate debate. I do not go to church, these days due to working on Sundays (OK and a love for watching the Green Bay Packers play) but I consider myself a Christian.

Conversely I have had my eyes opened the past few years by a friend of mine. Lets just say she and John Edward have much in common. Plus when our indoor cat escapes, she always finds him immediately with the help of her spirit guides. I find it fascinating. I am not supposed to believe in false prophets etc, but whether the powers are God given or natural, they are interesting.

How do you break a philistine’s finger?

Hit them in the nose.

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I had heard of the state law saying that all religions could put up a symbol before I posted. I clearly believe in everyone’s freedom of speech guaranteed by our federal and state constitution, but that was not conveyed in my message. I will try to make my point more clearly.

When I said “There is no reason it should be there and it is attacking people’s faith, not just Christianity but all faiths.”

I was coming from a point of view that Atheism is not a religion but a personal belief (with many different layers and shared by about 15% of the US population) that is slightly to absolutely against supernatural beings and religions. Not a religion, but in fact an anti-religion. And the groups spokesmen backs me up with a quote. “It’s not a religious display, it is an attack on religion,” the President of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Dan Barker said. From a KGW Report.

When Grant signed the bill in 1870, Christmas became a federal holiday. Washington State’s Constitution addresses what is allowed for Religions. I believe Gregoire is viewing it only as a freedom of speech or constitutional issue. She said… “Once government admits one religious display or viewpoint onto public property, it may not discriminate against the content of other displays, including the viewpoints of non-believers.”

I say that since it is not a religion it should not be near the other religious symbols.

If Atheists want their own holiday, then go for it, but would that not give validity to religion? Mmmm maybe not.

I must admit reading about the different points in Atheism is fascinating and all peoples should know about it and learn. I am a lay person in understanding that point of view.

Additionally, the State of Washington Constitution says a little something about faith in the preamble.

We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution. IMO they recognized the moral need of our creator in addition to secular laws of humanity and this state.

On a lighter note, if Skeletor were the Supreme Ruler, I would admit to being very surprised!!!

Here is the State’s Constitutional Article:

SECTION 11 RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief and worship, shall be guaranteed to every individual, and no one shall be molested or disturbed in person or property on account of religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county’s or public hospital district’s hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror, in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned in any court of justice touching his religious belief to affect the weight of his testimony. [AMENDMENT 88, 1993 House Joint Resolution No. 4200, p 3062. Approved November 2, 1993.]

As a Christian I must defend my faith otherwise I would not be a Christian. I do expect others to defend their views or faiths AND that they should ALL be respected by others whether you agree or disagree. If I missed any other Govermental Amendments or Articles, please let me know.

I will be addressing other things said in this string later. I have to read the links you sent.

Have a nice evening and a great day. HMC

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

PS … My wife wanted me to re-iterate that she is a proud liberal. She’s English you see. Loves the Labour Party and she would have voted for Obama if she was allowed to vote.

Additionally, whatever YOU say, she agrees with you. I love her very much (despite this character flaw). She says our kitties are Democats. My Bassett Hound is a Democrat too, she is always looking for a free handout. JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

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[Zenguy]

I would argue that religion is just a belief as well, organized but still just a belief.

While I consider myself an Athiest, I do believe in spirituality. That the world has forces both positive and negative, that if I do good things good things come to me. I continually see this being proved over and over and over again.

As humans we struggle to make sense of things we do not understand. Humans thousands of years ago were no different, God is an easy way to explain a lot of things. What is unfortunate is that some men wanted power and saw the opportunity to use God as a way of controling the masses. If you do not behave, you will go to HELL!

Why have humans been on the Earth for approximately 500,000 years but religion only about 3,000? That question still baffles me.

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[Kayleigh2]

HMC, I don’t see a need for you to defend the Christian faith. This isn’t Tibet and the Chinese aren’t tearing down churches. This is where the authoritarian aggression stuff bothers me.

Do you seriously think a small plaque is a threat to all Christianity? Really?

The governor’s office is getting 200 calls an hour from the freeper set who apparently has nothing better to do. And somebody *else* wants to put up *another* sign.

We are a nation of 5-year-olds.

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[Magpie]

What everyone has made clear here is that we all have differing opinions. That part is great. Will this question ever be answered, probably not. I love the pageant of the holidays, but do agree there is too much commercialism. As far as religion goes, that’s a completely personal choice, however, nothing more bothersome to me when someone tries to sway me as my beliefs are my own (my husband and I happen to have vast differing beliefs). Whether it be religion or politics, there has been a lot of bad things gone on in the world in its name.

That said, action speaks loudern than words and what I love about this blog is all of the differences of opinions, but when it comes down to it, so many of you band together for fundraisers, etc in the community and do a lot of good in spite of your obvious differences in viewpoint.

That said, my favorite card that I recieved last Christmas had George Bush in the manger instead of the baby Jesus and the caption read “and come let us abhor him” I saved it for posterity.

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[Cait]

LOL! HMC… I love it.

And Magpie – you have some creative friends. :)

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[WSMom]

Magpie: Thank you for the morning chuckle, I nearly choked on my latte! Oh come let us abhor him…I wish I were creative like that!!

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[JoB]

HMC..

that plaque doesn’t threaten religion.. if anything it spurs people to think and to ask questions.

like Magpie, i too hate anyone telling me what to believe. and that is as true of an atheist plaque as of a christian or jewish or muslim or …. one.

living your faith with joy and being willing to listen even when those who want to know your about your faith ask questions is so much more effective at helping people to find their own way to God than any defense or laying out of scripture could be. After all, religion is a matter of the heart.. not the head.

I question how much voices raised in outrage and anger defend any faith… as anger is the antithesis of most religions i have studied..

in spite of those who would use religion as a both a prison and a club… if it speaks to your heart, it is neither.

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[datamuse]

Zenguy says:

Why have humans been on the Earth for approximately 500,000 years but religion only about 3,000? That question still baffles me.

That’s debatable. It really depends on how you’re defining religion, but even if you’re just looking at the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism is something like a thousand years older than that. Hinduism and its precursors are documented to be even older. And those are just religions that are still around and have written documentation.

And that’s the thing–unless you’re defining religion as something with written documentation, in which case there’s no way to date it prior to the invention of writing, which imposes limitations of its own.

Burial rituals are frequently taken as evidence of religious belief, and if you do that, then religion is much, much older than 3000 years—and Homo Sapiens isn’t the only species to have it.

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[Zenguy]

My point I guess is if God wanted us to follow specific laws, you would think they would have been laid out from the dawn of time for ALL to see, not just some people in one area.

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[datamuse]

Inquisitive answer: I’m not sure how that relates to your previous point, unless you’re clarifying how you define religion.

Smartass answer: Sure, but where’s the fun in that?

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[JoB]

i vote for the smartass answer:)

second smartass… or thoughtful… answer depending on how you take it…

how do we know that god didn’t? After all, the survival oral history would depend largely upon the belief systems of those who chose what to.. and not to document.

after all.. we now know that the survival of written history depended largely upon the belief systems of those who chose what to keep.. and on the continual rewrite of historical events to fit current perspective.

Carl Rove is busy in the White House right now trying to do what the Roman Catholic church.. and the the church of england.. and then.. did repeatedly… rewriting history to tell the story you want reflected.

What if the garden of eden story is just an allegory for a people who once knew the way and then allowed temptations to lead them from their path?

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[Anonymous]

I am NOT religious – at all. That being said, I don’t understand why the plaque has to SAY something. The nativity scene doesn’t say anything (unless, I guess, if you are Christian, perhaps it speaks to you).

The fact that it seems to degrade all religious beliefs makes it a poor choice as a display, JMO. I think atheists would have a far stronger leg to stand on had it simply been a symbol.

I think a point can be made without attacking an opposing point.

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[WesCAddle]

NW,

I agree, the plaque is a bit harsh and they could have presented their case in a better light if they had properly wordsmithed it.

There is a big difference between displaying a Christmas tree or Menorah versus a sign that proclaims that people who follow ANY religion are basically idiots following myths and superstitions. It makes them look extremely bitter.

Let’s let people believe what they want, and if you really feel that “In God We Trust” on a nickle is equivalent to “cramming religion down your throat” you need to get out and realize there are bigger fish to fry on this rock we call earth.

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[Zenguy]

Agreed, I wish they would have focused on why they think Athiesm works for some and leave others to believe as they wish.

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[datamuse]

I think so, too, but I suspect that wouldn’t have gotten people as riled.

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[Zenguy]

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

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[Anonymous]

“if you really feel that “In God We Trust” on a nickle is equivalent to “cramming religion down your throat” you need to get out and realize there are bigger fish to fry”

There most certainly may be bigger problems to address, but I also don’t think dismissing essentially what amounts to a state sanctioned religious motto, to represent a secular government, is appropriate.

It is establishing a tone for our entire financial infrastructure, whether it be personal or business transactions. Something I doubt the christian god would even endorse. Wasn’t it jesus after all, who was most upset with the money changers?

Our currency influences every aspect of our lives. Whether it be giving tithes to our church or purchasing goods and services. That motto implies we do all things in gods honor. Perhaps that is true and fitting for your life, but does not reflect mine or a system that I feel should be neutral.

I imagine most christians would not be thrilled to live under the umbrella of in wicca we believe. Or brahmaa, allah, or satan for that matter. In that light can you not see how this could be offensive? You may not give it a second thought, or care, but it does have an influence.

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[mellaw6565]

Most people don’t realize that the words “under God” in the Pledge were added by moral conservatives in the 1950’s – our Grandparents and perhaps parents said it differently when they were children but yet sometimes they are the first to complain when we want to take it out and restore the original Pledge.

Makes it hard for me to pledge secularly to my country when I have to include God in it.

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[JoB]

WesCAddle….

i agree that an anti-religion statement doesn’t make much of a holiday decoration… but i am not sure what the atheist holiday symbol would be. LOL… I don’t think a true atheist even believes in Santa Claus.

i suppose that is the point..

datamuse…

they could have as easily talked about celebrating family during the season in spite of the fact that there is no god…

the reception to their message would still have been as negative by those on the righteous religion bandwagon.. but more palatable to those of more moderate inclination.

…

As for the in God we Trust on our money… God is actually a pretty generic term. it means many different things to many different people.

and these days it looks like we would do better to trust in whatever god we trust than trust in our government when it comes to our pocketbooks:)

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[JoB]

mellaw6565..

i found i can’t say those words in the pledge… so i don’t. i bow my head silently during them.

And i am a christian.

it’s the assumption built into the statement …one nation under god.. that we are talking about only one god… that this nation is a theocracy.

this is considered the promised land by many because of the religious freedom embedded in our constitution.

When those words were added to our pledge they had little to do with religion and more to do with patriotism and the battle against communists… who were considered godless people.

It was code for “I am not a communist”…

It has evolved to become something different.. but still a code for patriotism.. God and country!

I don’t recognize the god that those on the religious right keep quoting… and supposedly we share the same god.

Religion is a private matter in our constitution.. it should remain one in our communities… with freedom to practice as ingrained as the freedom from practice.

I just spent a couple of hours out in the community and i am not sure that any religious symbol gets top billing during the holidays… no matter how incensed some people are that religious symbols are displayed at all..

even santa has been challenged by a plethora of cartoon animals and snowmen and yes.. even the grinch.

if there is one graphic that most symbolizes christmas in our society these days.. it is santa’s hat… which says little about anything except that you are trying to embrace generosity during the holidays…

i can live with that.

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

Hey Zenguy, I really like your posts.

About 500,000 years of humanity….

I will attempt to show you why secular and limited government have roots in Christianity. I am not asking anyone to convert, etc.

Before the written word there is not a lot of evidence to actually point to. The closer we get to our time we see more evidence of polytheistic and to a lesser degree monotheistic writings, drawings etc. I believe Atheism has always been around.

Since you were raised a catholic but now aim towards a karmic spirituality, could not our ancestors have had some spiritual feelings back in time? I too believe in Karma and balance.

Now, I must say that either Atheism is right, Religion is right or neither is right, but the two cannot be correct together. We can however live together and should.

Christianity differs from most religions in a variety of ways. Historically, there was that radical Jew carpenter who proposed a very strange idea. He said “Render unto Caesar that which is Caeser’s, and to god that which is God’s. In an age of mostly polytheism this was quite a statement for the seperation of church and state. Even the Jewish tribe’s monotheism was about tribe and not necessarily the individual. Christianity evolved to include the individual. This train of thought is expressed thankfully in our constitution. What I mean is there is not a state religion and people can worship or not worship as they choose.

The Romans did not feel threatened by the Jewish faith and basically accepted it into their own pantheon. Christianity on the other hand claimed the one God for themselves and the whole world. For that they were persecuted for the first few hundred years by the Romans and at other times up through modern times.

Islam is a monotheistic religion too. It can be used by muslims to justify a theocracy. Sharia law does not fly in the West. Someday it may but not now. Christianity is different. As we are on earth we citizens who have duties to live among each other and do so within secular society. We worship in those houses of worship or privately. Government cannot infringe upon our faith or a nonfaith. A good example is Christianity or Islam in China. Unless they kill everyone, they cannot stop its growth.

This religious sanctuary of thought or conscious is what helps the idea of limited government. The ruler or governor has only so much power of the people and can only go so far. Through the birth of Christianity the church and governments finally figured out there were limits to their authority. Even the horrible Spanish inquisition did not cross over to judge and sentence the common thief, nor did the local law sentence the heretic.

We have Christianity to thank for allowing people the freedoms that we have today. Forming a person’s independence has helped to shape our country. That is not to say it was a smooth road.

Jesus also said “My kingdom is not of this world” Gods domain is not the earth but in the heavens (or maybe somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy??? – just kidding)

For a christian, we feel God rules over the whole universe BUT each country has its own laws and culture. My God’s domain is the church and in individual who embrace HIM (or Her, It). Outside of the church is the secular world. Christianity itself brought about the idea of secularism.

Is this so out of line with your view of personal space and personal choice? Since the Christian ethic IMO helped form the basis of our country should we not recognize this?

Now, for those of you who do not want to say Merry Christmas i want you to know that it is OK. But you must also know that Happy Holidays gets it roots from “Holy Day – meaning religious festival or day of recreation.

There are many elements within churches which do try power grabs. The 1st Amendment was needed due to some intolerance by the various religious groups. Lets applaud the founding fathers for their foresight.

So, Live Long and Prosper my friends.

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[JenV]

I will say Merry Christmas until the cows come home, that doesn’t make fairy tales real.

Just because you’re a Christian, and in the majority – doesn’t mean your 1st amendment rights trump mine as an atheist. I am glad the sign went up, and I am even happier it got Bill O’Reilly’s girly panties in a bunch.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy Festivus for the rest of us. Now lets have some tests of feats of strength!

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