What does diversity mean to you…..

[cclarue]

I grew up in Seattle, we celebrated Christmas, I did not have any friends that did not celebrate Christmas. I did one year have a Jehovah Witness boy in my class and he had to leave the room for our Halloween parties or our birthday parties. I always felt bad for him. He had to miss out on the little bit of fun we were allowed during classtime. I was one of the only kids who went to church regularly but as a kid I knew that christmas celebrated the birth of Christ but i can tell you that that is not why i got excited for christmas i was counting down the days until santa came with a present for me. Santa has nothing to do with christianity or the bible. Christmas is more about a time of year here in the United States that it is a religious holiday and i am a church going christian. It means more to me, but I am pretty sure Toys R Us and Nordstrom are looking forward to the profits of the season more than anything. It dissapoints me that I am being told i should not freely wish someone who holds a door open for me in December a Merry Christmas!!! It kinda ticks me off. Christmas has been celebrated in this country for a long long time. Why is it becoming so hush hush? If you dont celebrate Christmas THATS OK. But why is it offensive to some? I dont get that. If someone says happy haunakah to me i say thank you. No one seems to be offended when they get off the plane in Hawaii and are greeted with an Aloha and a lady in a grass skirt!!! If you get off the plane in seattle and there is a christmas tree why is that an issue people in this area celebrate christmas. If I go to India who am i to question what is decorating their airport? That just doesnt make any sense. I go to the nail salon and there is a Budda statue and a shrine> I am so not offended!!! I believe tolerance has gone by the wayside when i hesitate before i wish someone a merry christmas. My daughter also goes to denny and they were late getting out of school yesterday because the latino heritage celebration assembly ran over!!! And thats just fine with everyone but had they of been having an american heritage assembly there would be cries of unfairness or racism or who only knows what. That is what gets me it is almost as if we are allowed to celebrate or embrace anything but what this country was founded on. Another thing is denny pe class has uniform as a percentage of the grade black shorts white t-shirt and sneakers. Unless you are from a country where your traditional dress(with religious meaning) does not allow you to wear shorts or a t-shirt. Then you get a pass to not wear the uniform. So the rules apply unless you are not from here……….and if you are from here keep your beliefs in the closet or in your own home/ I want to make it clear that i am not against what anyone does or believes, i just dont like being pressured to put my holidays away while we are allowed to make room for all new culture heritage or what have you. Why cant we add to what we have always had and live in this wonderful free country and be happy we can CHOOSE church or not….Judism or muslim or christianity or buddism or atheism and not be persecuted for it.

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[cclarue]

JG I see your pie chart but where exactly is that at? Certainly not Seattle.

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[dawsonct]

Looks like America to me, cc. Seattle is one of the balances for places like where my relatives live, Indiana. Most of my cousins are quite progressive, a few more are more populist like Ed Schultz, and another large group is fairly conservative. ALL of them are very devout, every-Sunday-church-going Protestants. Religion is part of their daily life in sometimes shocking displays (to me, a lapsed Unitarian). America is a VERY Christian country; it is important for Americans who practice Christianity to understand that they do NOT need to force their practices onto public display, it’s already there.

I am not a Christian, but I do take full advantage of the (federally sanctioned) Christian holidays to gather with family and cook and drink and eat and drink (1 Timothy 5:23).

Don’t worry X-ians, your stamp on American culture is not in danger of disappearing in our lifetime. As far as I’m concerned, your hijacked Pagan symbols can be displayed, but I don’t want OUR government being the sponsor.

–

Interesting that Hallowe’en has been brought into this discussion; my guess is that 100% of the arguments I have seen against celebrating Hallowe’en have come from the severely misinformed wing of the Christianist movement (I know, redundant), seeing the witches and ghoulies and goblins (and the kiddie show character du jour) as symbols of satanism. Silly, silly Christianists.

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[luckymom30]

A huge thank you to DBurns, HMC Rich & cclarue for agreeing with me that it is a huge injusctice for everyone, children included to be excluded to activities and events due to their own beliefs, religion or culture. I feel that being an american (yes white) that I am made to feel I need to conform to the beliefs and cultures of other countries and forget about celebrating as an American, Christian, Jew or whatever, but apparently the people from other countries don’t have to conform to being in the U.S.

I do know that our daughter will wear her sweaters with Christmas trees, Santa, etc… and we will continue to greet people with a warm Merry Christmas, not a Happy Holidays.

I think that is totally wrong that Denny Middle School is making special arrangements for kids not wearing the p.e. uniform. What are these kids learning when the schools are making special arrangements for them due to their religion, culture, etc and when they get older and work they will find that those special conditions do not apply.

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[JanS]

they’re teaching these kids that they are respected..not a bad lesson

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[luckymom30]

Tehn show some respect to the children from the good old U.S.A.! Respect is a two way street.

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[JanS]

luckymom…have you been out in the world? Exceptions are made all the time for women who wear burkas. You would rather have them shamed than adhere to their standards of being covered? There is no “christian” required “garb”…get over yourself. Where is your sense of humanity, of comapssion…you’d rather they be forced to do something they abhor, just so you can make a point? I’m sorry..that doesn’t cut it with me.

Has the school specifically told your daughter that she can’t wear a sweater with Christmas trees on it? I’d bet not. Depicting Santa? I bet not. Those two symbols have NOTHING to do with the Christian holiday of Christmas – celebrating Jesus birth…so please don’t argue with that one.

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[luckymom30]

For your information Jan yes I have been out in the big wide world and traveled to many countries where I have seen first hand the difference in cultures and attitudes. You are putting words into my mouth, I never stated and I never will that I expected women to remove their burkas, just to allow our child and their families the same rights and to celebrate Christian, Jewish or whatever culture and religion. Stop placing limitations on all children because you have problems with any culture or religion different than yours. If that were the case I just we could just have our child removed from school on days when anything that is not Christian is being discussed, read to them, pictures drawn or any learning experience that is different from our own culture and religion, just as they are doing to their children.

And yes Jan our child was told to not come to school wearing anything Christian related and apparently they included Santa (even though he is not depicting Christianity), why Halloween I still do not know but if the people from other cultures and countries can wear their scarfs, burkas, etc then we will continue to wear Christmas trees, angels, etc… If the Christmas tree has no depiction of Christianity than why has it been removed from any public display in schools, offices (city of Seattle), and federal, state and city buildings?

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[JanS]

we’ve not been talking aobut “my religion”…we’ve been talking aobut yours. I have no problem with burkas being worn, I have no problem with your child wearing a sweater with a christmas tree on it, or a santa on it. Schools, as one other person said, are secular. And, while some of us might thing it’s convoluted, they do make the rules.

Trees are not put up in public places because in the past it has caused some problems. Everyone and their uncle wanted something to display THEIR “religion” or lack thereof. Our gov’t. offices have no time or budget for that, so to make it east they said no to everyone, even the athiests. It has nothing to do with a lack of respect on my part, or the gov’t.’s part. It has to do with the crazies that want to put up anything and everything, because “if they can we can”…very childish behavior. Again…teach the religion at home. Culture? That’s another thing…that’s learning about a people and how they live. Yes, history, geography, art, food, etc. It’s not a statement about religion.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and you don’t have to believe what I believe, and vice versa. Hope you work it out.

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[JanS]

out of curiosity, Luckymom, where does your daughter go to school?

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[charlabob]

I can’t claim to have read every word here, but where is the respect for the beliefs of non-believers? Every year this comes up (often it’s the fundamentalist Xtians who object to Halloween as a Pagan holiday.) And every year I think of what a pain it was when I was a child — the child of genuine believing militant athiests. If I wasn’t a Xtian, I must be <fill in the blank.> There was no room in the templates for someone who looked at it all as an exotic, somewhat interesting, alien ritual.

Believe me, no matter what you are, it’s much more comfortable than being nothing. Tolerance seems to draw the line there. :-)

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[sacatosh]

Was the child in question simply wearing a shirt with Santa on it? Or was there something else like “Keep Christ in Christmas” or “Christ is the Light” or some such.

Has she previously worn clothing that could be construed as “promoting” Christianity or belittling children of other religions — sayings like “Get saved, go to heaven” for example rather than simply wearing a crucifix with her standard school wear? Has there been a history of her trying to “convert” other kids in order to make sure they go to heaven. Sometimes kids can be so afraid of their friends “going to hell” that they will try to preach their own beliefs, which can be incredibly offensive even if well-intended. Believe it or not, fire and brimstone stories traumatize many many children, and if she’s scared for her friends, she may be making comments that the teachers find inappropriate.

The reason I ask is that it’s hard for me to believe that a child would be banned from wearing anything with a Christmas tree on it, unless there had already been a problem (with that child OR in general at the school) of someone crossing the line, and the school admin felt the need to make the line more stringent in order to prevent the offensive stuff.

Just curious to get a direct, straight answer about what happened without all the opinion and drama – just what EXACTLY she wore, what she was told, and what was the history, if any.

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[SpeakLoud]

Oh my god-really-we’re having this conversation? WOW

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[cclarue]

I will say my daughter has worn her christian camp t-shirts to school and no one has said anything to her. They also do not have any crazy messages on them. One says Ijesus with a headphone cord and one says hope with a cross and one is a green land of the lost theme.

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[angelescrest]

I do think a t-shirt or religious jewelry does send a message, a message that says this is what I believe, where I worship, with whom I hang out. To what end? At what point does it escalate to, “My religion is better than yours!”? I don’t know–I do know it happens: four of my children have experienced fairly awful discrimination, and we have always believed that religion is both private and to be respected.

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[Laconique]

First of all, I love the pie chart. I find it hilarious when white American Christians start complaining about how their “culture” or religion is being marginalized or repressed. It’s freaking EVERYWHERE! It imbues and informs so much of our daily existence.

And thank you to Charla for this quote: “If I wasn’t a Xtian, I must be <fill in the blank.> There was no room in the templates for someone who looked at it all as an exotic, somewhat interesting, alien ritual.” I totally agree. Everyone assumes if you don’t go to some kind of church that you must be “lapsed”. I’m not a lapsed anything, thank you. I enjoy the holidays of the religious as a pure tourist. And every year I mentally thank my parents for raising me completely free of any religion, but in a spirit of intellectual curiosity and with tolerance and respect for all.

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[JoB]

Christians have lived as a privileged class in our society… i understand how hard it is hard to see that when that is simply your life… but that privilege has definitely shaped our attitudes… and fueled resentment when withdrawn.

the saddest part of this discussion is that Christians can thank the more repressive Christian fundamentalists for the current trends in schools to limit religious expression in the schools and to sanitize holidays… those parents who wanted their children pulled out of class for what they thought were secularized or paganized holidays. Christian intolerance drove Christianity out of the schools not diversity.

Mistaking cultural education for religious education and blaming diversity is misplacing both blame and responsibility.

American children don’t have to learn American culture.. they live it every day.. but they do have to be taught about other cultures.

You can think of it as a preventative measure for intolerance.. or you could think of it as a survival skill.

the ethnic balance in our nation is rapidly changing .. understanding other cultures will be an essential survival skill in these kid’s lifetime… whether they get the diversity education they need or not.

i suggest that they will be better prepared to compete in the world they will inhabit if they are taught early in life that theirs isn’t the only perspective.

As economic opportunities become more global, it is as likely that the brightest of today’s children will pursue employment overseas as they do now in another state. Those who understand the cultures they find themselves employed in will have a definite advantage.

Not long after we moved here, i encountered a mother who had braved a bus ride to give her kids a cultural experience they couldn’t get at home. they came equipped with walking sticks and expedition hats ad carried their own food and water to avoid being sickened by the local food.

I watched her carefully shepherd her children down the center of the sidewalk avoiding eye contact with passers by. She stopped where i was sitting and asked where there was a safe place for them to sit and eat.

They had come from Bellevue and were spending the day in the cultural wilderness of Alki beach. it’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it.

If i was a parent today, i would embrace cultural education in the schools and take my kids shopping in the many markets of White Center… and attend the many festivals. We are lucky to have so much opportunity to expose our children to so many cultures without traveling abroad.

Our kids are never going to have the advantages that come from extreme wealth.. but the advantages that come from exposure to other cultures is right in our backyards… available for no more effort than stepping off the bus or parking the car and exploring.

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[luckymom30]

What the rant was first about was the fact that the school in is making a huge deal out of the kids wearing or not wearing their Halloween costumes to school, because some kids don’t have costumes to wear and then it grew to ok parents it is really because some families here have problems with your kids celebrating a holiday and they do not believe in it and find it offensive, the holiday in question is Halloween. Then the rant grew bigger until the school said ok no kids coming to school wearing Santa, Christmas Trees, anything that is related to your faith or a holiday that is not participated by everyone here at school.

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[maplesyrup]

What school?

The policy at my kids’ (public) school is that costumes are ok as long as they don’t come with weapons, and that masks are allowed only during the pageant.

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[cclarue]

Laconique or anyone for that matter, where and how is white christian culture EVERYWHERE? I am christian but am not at all religious. I live in a secular world. I live in Seattle and at work i am not allowed to talk religion or politics. We are so worried about being politically correct here in the northwest it is crazy. and this is a general rule not one for me specific. But the founding fathers of this country believed in god . its on our money… in god we trust. and i see no people refusing our money because it says god on it. aside from that how is it everywhere? if you come to this country and the public schools have halloween celebrations and this school is giving your child a free education, why is that a problem? here is a scenario.. child goes to school there is a halloween party which at highland park we cant call them halloween partys anylonger they have to be called Harvest party. and the child comes home and says mom we had a party at school. it was for halloween. why cant the parent say something to the effect of yes here in america they celebrated this day with costumes and candy but where we are from we do not do this and we do not believe the origin of it. or let them participate but dont do it at home.. whatever happened to when in rome do as the romans?? And in no way am I suggesting change what you do or dont do or do or dont believe in but why cant the kids have a halloween party? My children have friends of all different backgrounds. Many are buddist many are muslim and this is a good thing. we are lucky to be in a place where like job said we dont have to go out of the country to learn sooo much about our great big world and all of its cultures. I just dont get the stop doing what you have always done because some newcomers dont like it.

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[maplesyrup]

In God We Trust wasn’t added to our money until 1957. Nothing to do with the founding fathers.

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[Laconique]

Okay, maybe I just notice Christianity everywhere because I’m not a Christian. I see it in the myriad churches in my neighborhood, the Christian schools, the cultural and commercial celebrations of Easter or Christmas rather than the solstice or Eid-al-Fitr, the stores closed on Sundays, the crosses, t-shirts, Christian music and casual references to God that I see on tv and out in the community… I see it in surveys that show that more than 75% of people in the US still identify as some denomination of Christian. This compared to less than 1% Muslim, less than 1% Hindu, and less than 1% Buddhist, by the way.

American Christianity is changing, secularization is on the rise, and studies show that new immigrants to the US are predominantly CATHOLIC. So you all should really be blaming people like ME who are non-religious for the fact that overt Christian celebrations and symbols are on the decline, not these so-called “newcomers.”

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[cclarue]

well i am just going to go ahead and assume that the catholics are not the ones protesting christmas or easter celebrations. As for 75 % of people in the US identifying as christian, maybe they do because they really arent anything but it is a familiar word so they pick it but I can say that seattle and this region are surely not 75 percent christian. Jehovah witness and morman people may check that box but they are not christian. and please do not lump us all together because we are very different. I know buddists that celebrate christmas. These days christmas is really more about Santa than Jesus. One can celebrate christmas and have zero belief in god or jesus or religon. So why the fuss. for most it is a paid holiday. And if the school is not puttting a bible on the childs desk and reading mary and josephs journey to Bethelhem what is the problem?? Truly? i would love to hear a really solid reason for taking a halloween( which by the way i think is dumb) or christmas celebrations out of school so long as the faith wasnt focused upon?

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[herongrrrl]

JoB, I think you nailed it–in the 70’s and 80’s it was extreme fundamentalist Christians who started making a fuss over how holidays were celebrated in schools. And I remember all my Jehovah’s Witness classmates who weren’t allowed to participate in any celebrations of ANY holidays. In my middle school band, there were several students who were required to participate in the winter concert for their grades, but because they were JW had to sit with their instruments on their laps while the rest of us played songs like “Silver Bells” because it mentioned Christmas. I can see why public schools would rather eradicate any holiday with a religious history in order to treat students equitably. I don’t think it’s consistent, however–Valentine’s Day and St. Patrick’s Day are very secularized holidays with religious pasts and I have never heard the same complaints about observances of those holidays in schools that I have Halloween and Christmas.

Oh, and by the way, it’s pretty well documented that most of the Founding Fathers were Deist (http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm).

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[bluebird]

JoB summed it all up pretty well. Halloween started getting screwed with a long time ago BY christians. They claimed it was a holiday celebrating satan. Ghost and goblins and witches and devils oh my, were seen as threatening and anti-christian. I was one of the kids (baptist) that wasn’t allowed to participate in school parties or go trick-or-treating.

Schools are tired of never being able to please everyone. It’s less complicated to just get rid of all of it. And you can thank arguing religions for that.

And yes, the founding father’s were deists, as much as christians like to claim them and insist our country should be based on those beliefs. They believed in natural law as god.

“Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.”

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

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