Tunnel Enough Study

[JoB]

redblack…

the tunnel is not ideal.

it wasn’t even the best choice

but if they don’t build something you are going to be sharing that route over beacon hill… or through southworth… with every other tom, dick, harry and Jane trying to get to Ballard.

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[mightymo]

I’d be more supportive if they seemed to be determined to obscure the results of the various studies that threaten the “inevitability” of the project. We get a study that says that X number of vehicles are expected to use the tunnel (already less than the current levels on the viaduct, by the way, partly because of the lack of exits to the downtown core). But this study doesn’t take into account tolls — which are coming no matter what, because they’re part of funding this $2.8 billion thing. Another study says that a third or more of the expected drivers will skip the tunnel and crowd onto I-5 or surface streets if there’s a toll.

So we’re left with a project that among other things is very likely to have cost overruns (no one knows for sure who pays for that), could potentially damage some historic buildings downtown during construction, and move about as many cars a day as go on the Ballard Bridge.

We’ve been planning this thing for a while, but a lot of the planning process has involved vested interests telling their portion of the facts while downplaying any inconvenient details. At this point, I’m sure we’ll just go ahead and build it, and we’ll be paying for the consequences for a long, long time.

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[hooper1961]

and what are the consequences of doing nothing? port businesses going under laying off people, significantly increased traffic along the waterfront to name just a few.

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[metrognome]

Mightymo — I’m not sure from your post which option you do support. If it is replacing the viaduct in its current location, there are two major problems: 1) the viaduct will be torn down and Alaskan Way (street level) will be pretty much unusable for 4 to 5 years — remember the aftermath of the Nisqually Earthquake when the viaduct was shut down for several days? That gridlock and the economic calamity resulting from our inability to move goods and people through Seattle would last for years. 2) the current viaduct is in the liquifaction zone; should we cross our fingers and hope there isn’t a major quake that takes it down?

Also, based on the trend to charge tolls, I’d bet dollars to donuts that there would be tolls on the replacement viaduct as well.

JoB — in the world you describe, money is apparently not an issue. However, it is an issue in the real world. Again, there is not enough demand in W Seattle for high capacity transit, whether monorail or light rail, to be cost-effective. Even with ferries feeding in riders from across the water. Plus, WS is a dead-end for HC transit as there is no way to get out to the south (remember, the monorail wasn’t even gonna make it to the ferry terminal; it was to stop at Morgan Junction; their block long elevated maintenance platform would have blocked miws’ view of the McD’s, for crying out loud.) RapidRide, which was approved by a vote of the people, while not perfect by any means, is a more cost-effective way to get people over the hills and across the water (light rail would require a new bridge to WS). Will buses get stuck in traffic sometimes? Sure. Often enough to justify spending billions for light rail. Not hardly. Unless you want to turn WS over to Microsoft so they can build a huge campus here, built a second Mall of America here and drop Safeco Field down on the golf course. THEN there would be enough demand. But would you want to live here then??

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[dawsonct]

In fact, Seattle’s hyper-deliberative process SAVED us from the monorail. Ask ANY transportation engineer (who doesn’t work for a company making monorails) and they will be happy to tell you what a debacle they are.

There are excellent reasons this “20th century” technology hasn’t swept the transportation world.

Just one example of the nightmare it would have been, if their had been a break-down on any of the numerous proposed single-track sections, THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS SHUT DOWN UNTIL THEY COULD CLEAR THE TRACKS. That means, if there is a breakdown anywhere on the system, they need to clear the track between the breakdown and the maintenance vehicle, and it remains closed until the train is completely cleared from the track.

You simply don’t have the same issues with a dual-track line. If a dual-track train breaks down, it can even be easily removed from the tracks, if necessary.

I am not a transportation engineer, but have a number of close family and friends in the field.

–

I know the fantasy of monorail is fun, but you all can stop lamenting it, because the fiasco is fortunately NEVER going to be foisted on us. It would have been a funding black-hole, and an engineering nightmare for what would have inevitably been it’s too long life (we would have tried to make it work, and would have spent BILLIONS until we determined it was a white elephant and tear it down).

And remember, everyone wanted to live within a couple of blocks of the monorail, but no one wanted it zooming down THEIR street.

—

Wouldn’t it be great to have a bus from W. Seattle to the Beacon Hill LR station? I would selfishly also like it to continue to the VA and Columbia City.

I frankly think we could make a far greater impact on trip mitigation in the city and region with some re-planning of transit routes and priorities. More E./W. routes, more free neighborhood shuttles.

As an example, it’s ridiculous that the most frequent and direct route from Ak. Jct. to Alki Beach requires a sometimes uncertain transfer and takes longer than it does to get downtown.

—

Anyone else like to see regularly scheduled service to the mountain passes? Adding extra stops during the Summer at the trail-head exits would be a big bonus.

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[JanS]

I’m with you on the buses to Beacon Hill, etc. I infrequently go downtown, and find it kinda stoopid to have to go there just to get up on the hill. I, hopefully, will be using VA benefits soon, and other than driving alone, there isn’t much of an option.

Or…two hours to get me to Univ. Hosp. for an appt.? I work, I don’t have time for that. Many more people would take Metro, I think, if it was more convenient.

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[austin]

I remember a proposed bus route from WS that went over beacon hill and into columbia city but it never panned out or was rejected or something. Year or two back.

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/sc/plans/2009/012009-sesea-map-SewardPark.html

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[Genesee Hill]

dawsonct:

Yes, the idea of a bus to the Beacon Hill light rail station is a great idea.

I think a direct bus from West Seattle to SODO light rail station via new Costco cut-off and 4th Ave.South could also be viable.

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[mightymo]

I mainly support the surface-transit option, especially since the original replacement options (new viaduct, cut and cover tunnel) would have put all that traffic onto surface streets anyway. I still do, even after moving to West Seattle, but I know it doesn’t really have the support of the unions and others who will get jobs out of a big construction project.

Now I guess we’re going to pay a lot for a tunnel that will still send people onto surface streets (but not until it’s finished or the old viaduct falls down), with no plans or money to mitigate the added surface traffic from folks who won’t pay the tolls. So that’s something to look forward to — added gridlock from SODO to Lower QA.

I love the idea of a bus from West Seattle to Beacon Hill (and the Light Rail), maybe all the way to Columbia City. I think Metro sometimes has the excuse of lakes and bridges for not having more east-west routes that bypass downtown. But that one would be dead simple — we have a bridge that goes nearly the whole way!

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[Genesee Hill]

Mightymo:

Yes, indeed! Particularly after the Spokane Street viaduct portion of the West Seattle Bridge is finished, that is, the new parallel viaduct that is well under way!

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[JoB]

metrognome..

ask the established businesses that are losing their street parking due to rapid transit buses that at best will cut 5 minutes from the West Seattle commute how this is working for them.

More buses stuck in traffic so we can ignore the real problem.. that there are no alternatives.. is not the answer.

Have you looked at the success of the Portland or Denver public transit systems?

exactly the same complaints were made about them in the beginning.. that there wasn’t sufficient ridership to justify the cost.

you can actually get around both cities on public transit now. And funny thing.. their downtown areas are not only viable but lively. I visited both lately and was more than duly impressed.

Wouldn’t it be nice to see some of that business in West Seattle… thanks to a convenient transit system that dropped people off in the junction and whisked them up and down California on a trolley or something similar… all the way to the water taxi and maybe even down to the beach.

But that’s a pipe dream because the transportation folks will only look at existing traffic and not at what the traffic could become if the system existed.

Penny wise and pound foolish.

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[maplesyrup]

The “surface street option” isn’t really much of an option. It’ll just force a lot more traffic on to I-5 (you think getting over to I-90 is bad now?) and ignores the need for commercial traffic.

And any “option” that takes away access to and from West Seattle is going to drive property values down because it creates hurdles for people who need to get to their jobs that might not be in Sodo or South of the city.

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[metrognome]

dawsonct: THANK YOU!!! Also, please e-mail Metro about the WS/BeaconHill route; WS service will be restructured with RapidRide, so now’s the time.

JanS: I go to UHosp from Morgan Junction; using the 54 / 43 combo (55 in your case), it’s about 90 minutes door-to-door at most. On the way home, I wait for a 25 cuz after 3 pm it turns into a 37, so it is a one-bus ride to AK Junction. Doubt the monorail would have beat that, considering the bus from your home (Admiral area, as I recall) to monorail at AK Junction and bus from monorail in Ballard to UHosp. With the Link UStation, it will be the 54 or 55 to 3/Union, Link to UHosp.

JoB – why do we need a direct high capacity link between WS, Magnolia and Ballard? Again, not enough demand for the heavy capital investment (crossing Duwamish and Ship Canal.) And what do you think the monorail (or light rail stations) would have done to street parking??? RapidRide was designed to mimic the monorail route, so it will provide that connection (altho a transfer may be required). Heck, right now, the 21 / 22 turn into the 15 / 18, providing a direct, one-seat ride from WS to Ballard via Magnolia. It fascinates me that because someone wants a trip between any two points that we should spend billions in taxpayer $$ to make that trip happen, regardless of cost.

I guess you haven’t noticed — we are building a public transpo system similar to Portland, Denver, SF, etc: commuter rail, light rail, streetcar, commuter buses, local buses. None of those systems are providing direct service to/from every location in their service area. You take a bus or drive to a rail station, get on the train or bus and take a bus from the train to your destination. You need to re-read my posts; I’m not against public transpo; I’m against wasting limited public $$ on poorly designed investments that people want because they are ‘sexy’ (sorry, that’s professional transit jargon.) Your trolley idea would cost a billion or more, assuming it could climb the hill from Alki to California, would take away street parking for the stations, etc. Alki is a car magnet and nothing will change that. Metro has tried numerous routing options there over the years; the only demand is during commute hours. And your assumption that transportation planners don’t consider the future is completely wrong; the problem is its kinda like predicting the winter weather here — just too many uncontrollable variables.

mightymo – as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are actually several road improvement projects going on to address the surface traffic (4th Ave off-ramp from WSB, new 1st Ave on/off-ramp to WSB, complete redo of Spokane St; direct connections between waterfront, Royal Brougham/stadiums and I-90, etc.); these are necessary regardless of the tunnel as there is TOO MUCH TRAFFIC NOW. I worked in north Pioneer Square for 22 years; I saw it every day — the current street system is over-capacity.

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[JanS]

metrognome…where do you transfer from 54 to 43? at 3rd and Pine? My energy/health level prevents me from walking a great distance at the moment. If it’s over a block, I’m toast. So I’ve used the 55 to 46th and Phinney, transfer to the 44 to the hospital…a return the same way. It’s a hassle, but an easy connection. I never, ever have any business to do downtown, so if I’m going to UDist., Ballard, Magnolia, Cap. Hill, Beacon Hill, it would be so nice if I didn’t have to go downtown to get there.(Yes, I know that’s a lot to ask) I hate downtown with a passion. I also have a lowered immune system because of treatment for an autoimmune disease, and I get a bit freaked around the sickies that take the bus from downtown to the medical facilities on First Hill.

For what it’s worth, public transportation is nothing new to me. I grew up in Reading, PA, with a great transit system for it’s time (for a small-medium sized city). I took the bus literally everywhere, as my family never had a car..not ever. So, this isn’t new for me..but taking 1.5-2 hours to go a distance that a car can make in 20 minutes seems a bit much. Sometimes we simply don’t have that time to spare.

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[Jiggers]

Yeah Jan.. I took the bus almost everyday for two years after work and avoided Walgreens on 3rd avenue were there is more gangs, drugs, and mentally ill people that litter that block which has McDonalds and social services up the street from there. I’m sure nothing has changed since I had my operation. I’ve also noticed the increase in ridership on the 54 past 8pm. The bus was always standing room only by the time it got to its last stop in downtown before heading to W.S. Seattle doesn’t have money to build new busses which are looking runned down and atrocious. I’m not a big fan of building a tunnel either. It won’t be effecient enough. But what do I know.

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[metrognome]

JanS — I usually get off at 3/Union and go south to 3/Seneca to catch a 25 (with a stop at Jimmy Johns) cuz I prefer that route (better scenery, fewer psgrs.) The 54 stop at Seneca/2 is closer, but the hill is too much for me to handle in a wheelchair. The other option is the 43 at 3/Pine (the 54 stop at 3/Pike is closer, but is more crowded and difficult to maneuver in a wheelchair.)

The 55 / 44 combo is probably almost as fast and, as you pointed out, works better for your specific needs. I often take a route combo that most people wouldn’t think of for the same reason.

I doubt you could make it from Admiral to UHosp by car in 20 min except at 2 am on Sunday. I would allow at least 45 min. if not an hour. Plus, you would pay $7 – $10 for parking plus gas, etc. instead of 75 cents to $2 for bus fare. That’s the trade-off with public transportation: time vs money. In your case, being self-employed makes the trade-off less of a bargain. But it would also make driving a car less of a bargain. And your health issues make the bus trip longer since you understandably don’t use the 43, which is more direct.

The issue with going downtown to go north is due to Metro’s ‘hub and spoke’ design (plus you pretty much have to go through downtown from here to go north.) You’re lucky that Metro interlines the 54/55 and 5 for efficiency otherwise you would have no choice but to transfer downtown.

You might consider that 25/37 to get home after 3pm; it stops right in front of the hospital and stops at the 54/55 to downtown stop at the junction. You just have to cross Alaska to the 55 stop to get to Admiral. It goes along Alki and Beach Drive so it is beautiful and probably not much longer than the 44/55.

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/tops/bus/schedules/s025_0_.html

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[metrognome]

Jiggers — buses are replaced on a 12 year cycle (except trolleys which are more like 20years) per the federal funding requirements. The 60′ New Flyer artics assigned to the 54/55 are due for replacement within the next year or two or with RapidRide.

The 54 is more crowded after 8 pm because the 55 stays in WS as a shuttle between Admiral and the Junction so the 54 is the only route going in to downtown from the Junction.

I always avoid the 3rd and Pike/Pine stops and catch the 54 at 3/Spring even tho its a bit farther away.

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[waterworld]

Metrognome: I don’t disagree with what you are saying about public transit in our city overall. I am chiming in only to say that I drive reasonably often to the UW Medical Center from Fauntleroy near Lincoln Park. I can do it in 30 minutes or less almost any time of day. My route is Fauntleroy to the WSB, exit to 99 northbound, exit 99 just past the Aurora Bridge and take 40th going east to Northlake and then Pacific. It’s much faster than I-5. I don’t remember the parking rate for patients at the underground garage at UWMC, but I don’t remember ever paying anything like $10. Obviously more expensive than transit, but it’s a pretty quick trip.

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[JoB]

metrognome..

you are living in a fantasy land if you think we are building a public transport system similar to Portland or Denver.

All you have to do is take a look at the lack of urban stops between the airport and downtown on the light rail to know that public transportation was not the goal.

Not only that… instead of encouraging and facilitating business and foot traffic along the light rail route.. the Seattle option killed viable business along it’s route.. as will the rapid ride.

You can’t equate a surface bus that competes with existing traffic for space with dedicated transport system by calling it a rapidride.

and those complications?

Solved by San Francisco.

Heck, they were solved by Seattle in the 30s… with “antiquated” technology that had no difficulty handling the hills.

For a public transportation system to be viable you have to be able to get from here to there in a reasonable amount of time.

That 20 minute ride from Admiral to the UW?

not only possible but regularly accomplished by this little old lady in a minivan.

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[redblack]

talk of replacing the central waterfront section of AWV is a little premature, anyway, in my opinion.

the first thing that’s going to happen is new roadway for 99 before the south section is torn down. that will include exit/entrance to the remaining central waterfront section of AWV, and exit/entrance in the royal brougham area. this provides easy access to the N/S avenues and alaskan way. the train tracks will move west, so no more roadways blocked by trains during rush hour.

while this is a vast improvement over the current configuration, just getting there is going to be a nightmare.

first avenue south by the stadiums will be reduced to one lane each direction until the new 99 roadway and ramps are opened. (which IIRC will be in late 2012 or early 2013.)

i have noticed that the beautiful new 4th ave offramp from spokane street viaduct is underutilized. this is probably going to change really quickly when first ave gets torn up.

i’m just saying that we’ve got a long way to go before any viaduct replacement happens, and west seattlites’ patience and resolve will be tested heavily in the next 3 years.

my advice? start planning your alternat(ing)e routes now, and use them regularly so you know what to expect.

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[JanS]

waterworld…that’s the route I take to UHosp. quick and easy almost anytime of the day except rush hour evening, and who goes then, anyway?

Metrognome. I did a bit of research, and depending on timing..I can use a 37/56 combo with a transfer at 61st and Alki (I’m just up by Admiral Safeway), or at 26th and Spokane, to take a bus to UHosp. Of course, mid day gets a little more complicated.

What’s nice about the 37 is the beach run…love that. I sure do feel for the people on Beach drive in the evenings, though, when service quits altogether. Guess they figure that if you live down there, you won’t be taking public transport to you shift job. Sigh.

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[metrognome]

waterworld — I’ve made it in 30 minutes too; its taken 1.5 hours on the worst day. I never assume I can make it in 30 minutes cuz even if the freeway cameras show clear roads, that can change in the blink of an eye. Your route is a good alternative; I’ll have to keep that in mind for the next time I need to drive.

And, I was off by a $1 on my parking garage costs:

0 – 30 minutes Free

30 minutes – 1 hour $3

1 – 2 hours $6

2 – 3 hours $9

3 hours or more $10 daily maximum

In/out access $10 per day

Because I use a wheelchair, the time it takes me to get out of the car and to and from the rehab floor and back in the car guarantees me a $6 charge ($9 if there are lab tests or xrays), not to mention gas and the stress of driving in our traffic, versus $1.50 for a round trip reduced bus fare. Can’t wait for North Link to be operational; in the meantime, the bus works quite well for me since it forces me to get a sandwich at Jimmy Johns while waiting for a transfer.

http://f2.washington.edu/cpo/projects/sound-transit

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[JoB]

metrognome..

for some of us.. the distance we have to travel on foot to connect with the bus system and the time and energy required to navigate the route outweigh the cost even when we qualify for reduced fares… making the bus system a poor choice on bad days.

but even for those who are healthy… the current public transportation system can be an expensive choice.

while he worked downtown, hubby used the bus system for his commute. But then his job location changed and he faced a doubled distance.. with a tripled commute time.

By driving he has cut his old commute time in half.

If there was a viable option.. he would still be taking public transit.

We are lucky he has a choice. His day is long enough as it is.

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