Tea Party is a Joke

[redblack]

the only thing crippling our party, rich, is the same thing that’s crippling your party:

money.

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[JoB]

HMCRich..

While i may think we elected the weakest negotiator president…

that fact doesn’t alter the need to negotiate…

created by the Republican obstructionism that stands between Americans and economic recovery.

no getting around that.

personally, i am thankful that the democrats don’t have the political equivalent of the tea party.

Their legislative agenda is nothing to be proud of..

even in terms of realizing what you say are the goals of that party.

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[HMC Rich]

Hello RedBlack. I do take issue with the post regarding the Republicans have gone over to the confederacy.

Why don’t you expand on that to make certain I did not understand you.

But earlier in this thread you did something that I commend. You said my party and your party helped to contribute to this mess.

In fact, I did champion my party when certain excesses were going on. I was wrong to do it. I admit it. It is just hard finding people on the other side EVER admitting they were wrong.

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[HMC Rich]

JoB, what Republican obstructionism that stands between recovery and the American people?

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[HMC Rich]

Government has shrunk? What? On the books or off the spending is out of control. Your argument is interesting.

Bush 8 years. 4.9 Trillion (rounded up)

Obama 2.3 years. 3.6 Trillion (rounded down)

Can you say Too Much by both!!!????

No more budget and spending slight of hand.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Stefan-Karlsson-s-Blog/2010/0909/Has-America-s-government-shrunk

I know government positions like Inspector Generals are increasingly not being filled. But a whole bunch of other Federal Jobs have been created. http://blog.heritage.org/2011/02/22/federal-workforce-continues-to-grow-under-obama-budget/

Down near the bottom some government figures are quoted http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2011/01/sotu_sells_big_government_with.html

Just to be fair, it grew too much during the Bush years as you noted: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4486228-500803.html

Can we quit arguing about who and why and start fixing it? But if you need to hear it. Yes, Bush screwed up big time. But so are your guys and at a faster rate if kept unchecked.

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

and exactly how much of the 3.6 trillion you put on Obama’s books was deferred expense that the Bush administration didn’t bother to account for?

“Can we quit arguing about who and why and start fixing it? “

Any time.

but that obstructionism i mentioned is getting in the way.

you know.. blocking spending on anything that might have economic value to American citizens ..

like infrastructure, education, job bills, etc…

while increasing spending on anything that might have value to their corporate or political sponsors..

these are the guys who held up middle class tax breaks

which stimulate the economy because the middle class actually spends them

to extend and expand tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans

who aren’t doing their part in that trickle down thing…

Could you talk to your guys about that?

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[TDe]

Maybe encourage your guys to have a cozy little fireside chat with the Goldman Sachs folks about how much they are trickling down these days, after our very generous taxpayer bailout. “Inside Job” really is an enlightening documentary as mentioned on another thread.

And speaking of Goldman Sachs, trickle down, “let them eat cake” Tea Partiers etc., here’s an interesting quote from a report on renting in America, just released by the Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies.

“When considered over just a few years, changes in the share of cost-burdened renters may not seem dramatic. Over the longer sweep of time, though, the increase is alarming. A common standard of affordability is that rent and utility costs together require less than 30 percent of household income. Above that limit, renter cost burdens are defined as moderate (between 30 and 50 percent of income) or severe (more than 50 percent of income). In 1960, 24 percent of renters were at least moderately burdened, including 12 percent that were severely burdened. By 2000, these shares had reached 38 percent and 20 percent. And by 2009, the share of at least moderately cost-burdened renters soared to 49 percent while the share of severely burdened renters jumped

to 26 percent.”

http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/publications/rental/rh11_americas_rental_housing/AmericasRentalHousing-2011.pdf

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[HMC Rich]

JoB, Have you heard of Pork?

Education. Behind the Finnish people (I believe), we spend the second most on our public education system. It has not helped. Just throwing money at something doesn’t mean it will help. There is something not quite right. I know you want what is best for our kids. This is a problem nationwide and locally. Have the politicians and the NEA or WEA been meddling where they shouldn’t be? If the WASL is wrong, change to something better. If no child left behind is not working, dump it.

I know first hand the City of Seattle schools have fabulously sponsored programs for children two years through 18 to help development and growth. But we need to look at the educators.

I am impressed with a few of the local Principals and there visions.

Some of the educators know better than I, but I am now making plans of where my son is going to go. Will it be private or public? I would prefer public, but we will go private or move if he won’t be taught properly.

This is NOT Republican obstructionism. This has been a variety of issues. We all have to own it.

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[HMC Rich]

The Trillions of debt.

Sweetheart, Lets get real.

Fact, since REAGAN, generally debt accumulated during the REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS.

No argument. Your 30 year argument is correct.

But, what you have to look at is what happened in the Senate and the House. Redblack has already stated this in so many words.

During the Reagan years, Supply Side economics and the decrease of the tax rates were ushered in over three years. Reagan cut a deal with the Houses. They agreed to the tax cuts, but they were also supposed to cut spending. That didn’t happen and the Democrats had a bit more control of the Houses than the Republicans.

Bush 1. He raised taxes and had a minor war. Discretionary spending jumped again. Minor recession.

Clinton 1. Clinton tried a big government approach and lost out. He quickly became a small government guy and with the Gingrich Congress, the government revenues actually caused a surplus. Minor recession at the end of his tenure.

During those years, Gingrich left and Hastert became the House Speaker. That to me was the beginning of the downfall of the Republicans.

Bush 2 gets elected and also has to deal with the dot com recession. 9 months later 911 happens. Bush does not veto any bills for many years. Spending by the Republicans and Democrats soars. Add two War fronts plus the Prescription Drug plan, you have some serious spending issues. Plus, Bush II is partly conservative partly progressive. Makes tax cuts but signs legislation that is unfunded or spends more and more.

The main problem for the Bush years especially in the latter years was that spending increased 24% not including the wars. Congress was having a ball. Bush did not veto the excesses and helped create more debt.

And Why? Democrats get the house in 2007 and the Senate. Spending goes up. The 2008 Election brings in Mr. Obama. He, Reid and Pelosi, make up for lost time when the Republicans were not spending as much as the Democrats would have. Plus, Obama inherits a terrible crash in the economy. Bush starts TARP, Obama adds Stimulus plus more spending. Republicans are a non-factor. The only show in town was the Donkey show.

JoB, If Presidents are to be the point people in the discussion of the debt, then Yes, they are guilty in your eyes. But the fact is the Congress raises monies for the government. What is Patty Murray known for. Getting the Pork. Is this always good? No it isn’t.

I know this is very hard for you to understand JoB, but if your Democrats and my Republicans except Jack Kemp, would have kept their wallets closed, we would not have started down the road we are on. Yes, the Reagan tax cuts were deep, but the revenue generated was one of the best in our countries history. But with that economic model, there needs to be fiscal responsibility and frankly, for only a few years during the Clinton era, there hasn’t been enough.

Additionally, this is why the TEA Party is infiltrating the Republican party. There is a chance enough people can change the Republican party to be more responsible about spending tax dollars. The Democrats are quite often a lost cause in that regard. Look at the first two years of Clinton and Obama. What did the Democrats try to do. Social engineering and spend more money. What happens each time. The country yells and screams and says Whoa pardner. You are going too fast.

Just raising taxes won’t help. If you raise the top tax bracket rates to the Clinton era levels, in ten years that would generate about 730 Billion extra dollars. If you raise them more, even Democratic millionaires will try to hide more of their money (along with their Republican cronies)

Here is where our McCain moment comes. Compromise. All classes have benefited from the lower tax rates but our country is not getting enough revenues. The lefts mantra that only the rich have benefited is a lie. If the Bush Tax Cuts had expired the lowest earners tax rates would have jumped 50%. Granted, the Top Tier people have certainly benefited from the cuts. Change the tax system.

Mr. Obama, instead of demanding spreading the wealth should be embracing the leaders of industry and asking them for help. He should focus on simplifying the tax code. Cut out the corporate loopholes but not tax the companies too much. Also the Top 1 or 2 percent could have another tax bracket. They could be asked to contribute more by also closing the loopholes. 16% is not enough of a tax payoff. GE should be paying taxes. (Funny, I don’t hear you railing against Obama’s best private company friend GE). And although the Rich during the Bush years had a lower tax rate, they paid more in taxes than the previous years because they did generate more revenues. So your argument that the policies only helped the Rich are not quite right but good thing they did or we would have even more debt. But with such a screwy tax system, there are too many loopholes. Not enough is coming in.

Finally, the first two years of the Obama Presidency caused the debt to go up even more. Even adding in the Off the Books war debt. Welfare type programs in 2010 cost more than the entire Iraq war.

So, JoB, I will let you believe it is all of the Republicans fault. Go ahead. Additionally you are right, the power brokers must not repeat the sins of the past. But, you always seem to talk about greed. Maybe the 10 commandments ought to be put in every CEO’s office too!!!

Infrastructure can be rebuilt when we take care of the problems the past has created. Obama is a great speaker. He could, if he knew how to, lead us to more prosperity. But I don’t believe he knows how.

The truth is, if the surpluses would have been there, he would have ushered in more government programs to help people and “spread the wealth” He has tried for two years. Now he has to clean up the mess that was left for him or face not getting re-elected.

This is why Trump is almost a serious candidate. Many Republicans are afraid to take on the tough issues. Trump is arrogant. He is extremely wealthy. He is a business man and not a conservative. He is more like the moderate Republicans. But he is not afraid to say anything. Whether we like it or not, he is resonating with many Americans like Perot did a few years back. If Gas prices and inflation go up and we get another recession, Mr. Obama is doomed.

So I believe many of you on the left are going to be disappointed with him in many areas because although he talks a good game at times, he will compromise. He will start giving on some more issues.

And the Republicans are going to hit him hard. Fuel Prices, Unemployment, The Gulf, Healthcare, The Debt, The Deficit, Possibly Libya. He will be going more gray in the next two years.

The problem is, the Republicans need a candidate. Right now, there isn’t one.

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[redblack]

rich: i didn’t say anything about the confederacy. i was referring to this weird and constant reference to “real americans” and the “heartland,” which republicans and christian fundamentalists tout on a regular basis. they ignore the fact that over 70% of our population lives in urban and suburban areas – not farmlands. these are violent places, and the only industries that consistently do well are trade in sex and drugs. yes, it’s a struggle, but it’s who we are as a people, and ignoring it – or worse, trying to impose your values in order to eradicate it – is folly.

i said 1958, not 1858. i was referring to theodore cleaver’s america, which was a pretty fantastic and seemingly innocent place. it didn’t and doesn’t exist for most people.

then again, in 1958 the top marginal tax rate was 91%, we had heavy import duties, the rich were getting very rich, unemployment was low, wages were high, and the economy was booming.

regarding the deficits and blame and whatnot, yes, democrats signed off on most of the republican red ink. i freely admit it. it’s fact. it’s history.

but in the interest of not repeating history, i’m trying to show you that the philosophical concept of trickle-down economics is a failure. free trade is a myth. the world is not flat. deregulation leads to corruption. we have 30 years’ worth of proof to show how we got here. and, yes, that corrupt economic philosophy is espoused by conservative democrats, as well.

but it’s not about counting political coup, and if you think that i’m not a big picture kind of guy, you underestimate me. it’s about taking this country back toward a more collective good and crafting policies that require business and the wealthy to be the engine of our economy, not simply allowing people to become wealthy and damning the rest of us to penury. it’s about using our government to ensure that vision. it’s about making sure that our government and governance isn’t simply sold to the highest bidder.

regarding who we, on the left, have to look to for sound vision, we believe that we should look to ourselves. we don’t need leaders, per se, and we’re not looking for someone to follow. we’re looking for someone to get in front of a parade – or protest – that’s already moving and pick up the bullhorn.

and whether you believe it or not, we want you in that parade.

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

yes.. i have heard of pork.

Have you heard of No Child Left Behind?

that’s the program that did such a great job of decimating Texas’s public schools that Bush brought it to ours.

Yes, something is wrong…

but it’s not the teacher’s fault they have no time left to actually teach our kids…

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

you just made me laugh out loud…

Reagan’s policy but it was the House’s fault they didn’t cut spending …

sorry dude. that might sell with revisionists but i was there.

Reagan’s policy was that debt was a good thing.

And the one about Gingrich:) ROFLOL

sorta glosses over the work Gore did cutting the waste out of government programs…

and makes Clinton a minor character in his own passion play…

please don’t forget all those US taxpayer dollars Republicans spent chasing the story of a minor sexual pecadillo… Yeah.. real heros.

and this.. i love this…

“But the fact is the Congress raises monies for the government.”

and the fact is that the republicans have more often been in charge for the past 40 years than the democrats.. and when they weren’t in charge they were riding that fillibuster bus so hard that they burned out the brakes.

“es, the Reagan tax cuts were deep, but the revenue generated was one of the best in our countries history”

where do you get this stuff?

Really.. you should be doing stand up comics…

it’s that good :)

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[redblack]

yeah, the revenue reagan’s deficits generated was one of the best in our country’s history for the top 2%.

the rest of us got our wages cut, our jobs shipped overseas, and higher prices for consumer goods.

thanks a lot.

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

here is the thing i don’t get.

You keep repeating that we think it’s all the fault of one side or the other in this political free-for-all.

But that’s not true.

Repeatedly we have talked about the economic model that has gutted our once sound financial structure..

about the corporatist attitude that is decimating the fine legal line between corporations and people… talk about judicial activism :(

about the preponderance of outright lies that floats through our nation’s airwaves every night painting a false picture for voters…

and that’s just the short list.

We have criticized the leaders in the democratic party on a regular basis.

You are the one stuck in “us and them”.

So stuck that you think a political movement funded and directed by corporate interests is a spontaneous expression of political will…

Tell me.. what is spontaneous about Glen Beck winding up his audience night after night with his chalkboard fantasy representations of our government?

What is spontaneous about a movement created out of a nightly dose of anger?

It’s no coincidence that when self identified tea party participants are interviewed they spew racism and bigotry.

Glen Beck spewed racism and bigotry… and made it so popular that you dismiss outrage as “political correctness”.

Oh.. and he sold you on the idea that you are the underdogs and those radicals on the left are responsible.. if not for them he wouldn’t have to speak of them that way…

What happened to basic civility?

You bought the idea that it doesn’t matter as long as you win.

That’s what happened to basic civility.

You think any observation that casts your party in a bad light is an insult that you have to react to.

No wonder the only thing you can see are insults.

But what makes me saddest of all is that as the issues are becoming glaringly clear to you… instead of fighting those who created the situation you find yourself in.. you join a make believe political movement whose only goal is to further the interests of those who got us in this fix in the first place.

and if i am wrong.. please explain to me why those tea party candidates who got themselves elected are so busy passing legislation that privatizes government.. opening up a whole lot of new profit centers for the fellows footing the bill?

Because that’s what all that anti-union workers rights stuff is about.. another way to profit at taxpayer expense.

even you can’t really believe the job of the creating public services can really be done more cheaply when we have to pay CEO wages and multiple profit centers…

but hey.. it’s so much easier to label public services socialism… because God knows any ism other than capitalism is wrong…

how that squares with the story of Jesus and the moneylenders.. i don’t know.

but i am sure a half hour with Glen’s magic blackboard will clear that right up.

***

if i sound angry, i am.

The America i grew up in is gone..

and i don’t like what has replaced it.

education matters..

and you won’t get quality education by creating a subclass of underpaid and under-qualified teachers.

and the people selling you that crap know it.

You might ask yourself why an undereducated gullible populace benefits corporatists …

and then ask yourself why you think taxpayer money funneled into corporate pockets is a good thing..

but taxpayer money funneled into public services is a bad thing.

Where is Will Rogers when you need him?

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[dawsonct]

Rich, when you get the chance, would you please explain how you define yourself as a conservative?

I have a feeling that your political ideology is merely being paid lip-service by the Republican Party leadership in order to ensure your loyalty, much like they do the “pro-lifers,” the homophobe lobby, the people who think they can defend themselves against the government with a .30-06, the ones who think we need a government mandate to pray in school, closeted (and outright) racists, etc.

They appreciate your vote, but that’s all you will ever REALLY get out of them.

The average American worker is more productive than we were in 1980, but our wages have been stagnant, if not realistically dropping, while the very wealthiest people in this Nation have seen their income increase by almost 300%.

This isn’t my ideology, these aren’t my opinions, they are facts.

We have been ignoring and abdicating our responsibilities for our Nation in order to pay tax breaks and build war-making machines, bullets and bombs. We have stopped creating anything of permanence, or maintaining that which we already have. The Republicans speak of passing debt on to our next generation, but no debt is greater in our Nation than the deficit that is forming in our outdated and falling apart infrastructure, and any attempts by the current administration to address these issues is met by stonewalling from the Republicans and conservative Democrats (who were once Republicans before your party was co-opted by the social crazies).

Could you please provide a link to the figures that shows America’s per-student spending is the second most worldwide. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I DO wonder how much of the education dollars in our Nation is actually spent on academics.

We DO need to address how we educate people in this country, since no matter HOW much we are spending, it isn’t the most effective way.

Seems like we should devise a new funding model as well, since being lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family/community should NOT be the major determining factor behind someone’s success.

I see it as an issue of National import; we shouldn’t strive to be a Nation of undereducated and easily (mis)led peons.

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