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June 26, 2008 at 3:37 pm #587302
charlabobParticipantThe subject line says it all — I understand the need to move to the center after winning the nomination — but this headlong plunge to the extreme right, along with propagating Repug lies about such things as FISA, and agreeing with Scalia about the death penalty for child rapists is horrifying to me.
I had honestly thought he could use his campaign and the presidency as a pulpit to gently educate, rather than following and pretending to lead.
And, sorry, but I have no doubt that Clinton would have done the same or worse.
Grumpily yours, the charla half
June 26, 2008 at 4:59 pm #629047
walfredoMemberVote for Nader or Kucinich? Reality dictates that the overwhelming choice of the progressive “party activist” movement, has to run to the center to win.
Are you seriously asking the differences between Bush/McSame and Barack Obama? Or are you saying he is becoming another Clinton/Kerry fill in the blank?
I think anyone who underestimates the skill and drive of Obama and his team as politicians is doing it at their own peril. It’s not just that they pulled off the greatest political upset in a generation, it is that they absolutely planned to do it, each and every step of the way, and not only executed flawlessly, but planned and projected with stunning accuracy how everything would play out well in advance.
Charla- if he doesn’t reach out to a wider audience, and win this election (hopefully in a landslide) he can’t accomplish anything.
June 26, 2008 at 5:12 pm #629048
charlabobParticipantNope, I’m not threatening to vote for anyone other than Obama. And I expected him to reach out to a wider audience. I’m saying, specifically, claiming the FISA compromise is a compromise and has anything to do with national security is ridiculous. I expected better of him.
I said long ago that once he got the nomination and the presidency, we need to hold his feet to every fire in sight. This is the first flame.
IF he believes his base is secure, there’s no reason for him to do anything other than triangulate. We need, at least, to make him nervous about his landslide. :-)
June 26, 2008 at 6:05 pm #629049
KenParticipantWe will be holding feet to the fire once the constitution fueled conflagration of Bush Cheney is put out. Until then I am gonna get in line and push this car up the hill.
I am saddened by his FISA stance but I expected no less.
Perhaps not for the same reasons though. Obama has some smart strategists on his team and as much as we like to forget it, the majority of the voters do not or can not pay attention to many of the issues we activist do.
Obama not only has to run to the right between now and November, many think he has to actually pick a fight with what is perceived as the “left” by the pundits. Indys and moderates will think this blunts the GOP criticisms of Obama as “Liberal” and this should make him more palatable to them. That’s the theory anyway.
That public discourse has been pushed so far over to the right by the wingnuts aided by corporate media means that the disengaged and the casual absorbers of news think the center is actually the “left”.
I am calling Patty Murray today though and asking her to stand with Dodd and Feingold in the filibuster to strip out the phone company amnesty provisions. The entire bill should be killed but the congress has rolled over on defending its power as a co-equal branch for so long now that it is unrealistic to expect them to suddenly notice they are turning the republic into and oligarchy at this late date.
This is our last chance to save our selves from the fate of the Romans and however flawed he might be, Obama is the tool we have at hand and the last one in the toolbox.
It is indeed time to lead, follow or get out of the way.
June 27, 2008 at 1:08 am #629050
JoBParticipantken..
i don’t intend to blindly follow or get out of the way…
which doesn’t mean i am not as committed to pushing this cart up the hill as you are…
i just believe we will have more power doing so if we hold him accountable.. even on the campaign trail.
i want to be sure that some of the baggage in that car benefits us..
and the only way i know to do that is to make a lot of noise.
i also believe the more he panders, the more disillusioned his base will become…
unless they really have bought into the story that the end justifies any means…
if they have.. we are lost no matter which way the election goes.
June 27, 2008 at 4:55 am #629051
TheHouseMemberHey, did you ever think for a second that perhaps your Liberal Messiah of a candidate actually realizes that this legitimately is needed in order to protect the Nation.
Stop getting bent out of shape over FISA. Unless you’re communicating with terrorist cells outside of the United States, you’re not going to be tapped. I’m sure the government has more important things to do than besides listen to JoB and Charla discuss what cafe you’re going to get your weekend coffee at.
June 27, 2008 at 5:21 am #629052
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
no-one expects you to get it.
this is a discussion about civil liberties…
and about granting the phone company complete immunity for granting the request for information from any government agency or employee without the troublesome bother of obtaining warrants for soliciting information about any citizen… or the troublesome need to inform citizens that they are under scrutiny…
but of course you believe it is necessary.
i bet you believed there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq too… maybe you believe they are still there ;->
June 27, 2008 at 5:28 am #629053
TheHouseMemberI believe in my government and country. I believe that there are truly people out there that would get great pleasure out of killing the both of us because of what we both stand for.
For that, I don’t care if George Bush personally listens to all of my calls himself.
You may hate to hear it, but if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Refute that, my little chickadee.
June 27, 2008 at 5:34 am #629054
charlabobParticipantDeleted…
June 27, 2008 at 5:49 am #629055
JoBParticipantTheHouse..
no problem refuting that… even if i am your little chickadee.
Charla is right.. the existing FISA courts deal very effectively with granting warrants on the sketchiest of suspected terrorism evidence. They have never denied a request for a warrant.
so.. if you feel they don’t need any kind of evidence or oversight..
perhaps you should define “nothing to hide”?
Are you so happy about your government listening in on your phone calls if it’s not a republican government?
What kind of information might you discuss on the phone that you wouldn’t want an outside party privy to? business deals? marital conflicts? health information?
because if there is no warrant… no oversight… no accountability… there is no restriction on when or where they can listen to your calls or what they can do with that information. and… there is no restriction on who “they” are either…
Is that really ok with you House?
We’ll ask you again next year if Obama wins the presidency.
you might want to rethink that.
June 27, 2008 at 5:53 am #629056
TheHouseMemberFISA clearly states what conversations will be monitored and whom. U.S. citizens speaking domestically cannot be tapped. It’s only for overseas conversations of people that have been identified as threats.
June 27, 2008 at 5:58 am #629057
KenParticipantHouse. The issue for most of us is not the Fisa bill in its original form. The 78 bill was just fine and gave plenty of ability to eaves drop on foreigners and anyone in this country they might contact.
The precedent set by telling corporations that they don’t have to decide on their own whether to do something their entire legal department knows is illegal just because the president asks for it. They just have to have a “get out of jail free” card from the president
The current bill grants amnesty to huge telcos who knowingly broke the law.
The current bil allows the NSA to continue to “hoover” the entire communications stream of all domestic businesses.
I hope your so just as unconcerned when a Dem president uses the same unitary executive power to eavsdrop on republicans and prosecute the bid riggers, war profiteers, and all the scammers on wall street.
I’ll bet the 5 wingnuts on the supreme court have nothing to hide either.
I am not afraid of criminals in caves enough to hand over the bill of rights without a fight.
June 27, 2008 at 1:20 pm #629058
charlabobParticipantKen says: “I hope your so just as unconcerned when a Dem president uses the same unitary executive power to eavsdrop on republicans and prosecute the bid riggers, war profiteers, and all the scammers on wall street.”
I fervently hope you’re right, Ken, about this happening when we win and when we win a convincing majority.
I do have to thank the vocal Repug minority on these forums for reminding me of why it is vitally important that we win. When I lose sight of that, I can just come back here and read most posts on the racist thread and on this thread and — jeez, I’m regenerated!
It’s a fine line between supporting Obama 100 percent until he wins AND making sure he doesn’t forget his base. I’m a bit worried that the criticism is so muted — he’s now said his criticism of trade agreements such as NAFTA was overheated, and that he doesn’t necessarily support reopening them. It is starting to feel like one horror after another, but (thank you House) I sent another check last night.
June 27, 2008 at 7:02 pm #629059
walfredoMemberTheHouse- I think “belief” in your country doesn’t have to be limited to blind faith of those in power and complete abandonment of Civil liberties.
One of the things that make me believe in this country the most are the rights given to individual citizens, and the limiitations of intrusions that are allowed by the government without cause.
Your statement that unless you are a terrorist you have nothing to worry about is false. It was widely reported that part of the Elliott Spitzer sting was done using these newfound privelages.
What our leaders would abuse these new found powers to enhance a partisan political agenda? Never!
Or date back to the FBI files and illegal investigations of John Lennon and Martin Luther King Jr. The government will continue to try to expand the scope of its power, and it is up to its citizens to control not only who is elected to power, but to preserve the checks and balances, and limitations that our constitution imposes on that power.
June 27, 2008 at 7:07 pm #629060
JiggersMemberBarama as I call him is going to announce on election day that he’s actually white…
June 27, 2008 at 8:02 pm #629061
JoBParticipantJune 27, 2008 at 8:12 pm #629062
JoBParticipantTheHouse…
Ken is right. The only narrowing of power in FISA was contained in the oversight that the need to obtain warrants created.
without oversight.. there is no limit on what or who can be taped.
While it is true that evidence obtained without a warrant won’t be admissible in court… if there is no evidence of unmonitored taping.. there is no “fruit of the poison tree” because there is no record of where the original information came from..
to make that simple.. right now if law enforcement obtains information illegally (without due process) and follows up on that information to obtain evidence legally.. the legal evidence is thrown out because the leads to it were obtained without due process… “fruit of the poison tree”.
if there is no record of monitoring, there is no way any defendant can prove the information used to prosecute him/her was obtained illegally… because there is no disclosure.
FISA is used more by law enforcement now than as a terrorism tool.
The good news is that it has been used to bust some substantial drug rings.
The bad news is that it has been used to politically persecute members of the opposing party.
That probably looks pretty good to you right now.. exposing those hypocritical democrats… but don’t look too far under the rug of many of your republican heroes… some of them are barely dodging prosecution now..
June 27, 2008 at 10:46 pm #629063
vincentMember“You may hate to hear it, but if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.”
SO AWESOME!! you just accidentally invoked Godwins law, and made yourself out to be colossally idiotic at the same time.
So you realize you just basically quoted a Nazi party line just then? And as the resident conservative you just asserted that large government was cool cause it keeps you more safer.
you sir are the best troll this BB has.
June 27, 2008 at 11:17 pm #629064
TrickParticipantTo think this government (Dem or Repug) will use this law with good intent is just drinking Kool-aid.
What is the difference with “Watergate” as opposed to FISA?
re:”but if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.”
If the telecom’s didn’t do anything wrong, why do they need amnesty?
What ever happened to the argument “less government” ?
June 28, 2008 at 2:06 am #629065
JoBParticipantwell.. charla is right.. this thread did just remind us why obama..
even if he and the dems are curretnly behaving like bandits who want to be sure there is plenty of power left in the bank when they take it over..
June 28, 2008 at 2:20 am #629066
JoBParticipantinteresting link…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/21/obama/
it explains why this decision is wrong, why we shouldn’t rubber stamp it.. and why we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…
June 28, 2008 at 2:39 pm #629067
charlabobParticipantJoB, it’s good to be on the same side again :-)
Greenwald is very good at pointing out the line between “just going along” and throwing out the baby.
I’m more than a little worried that Obama jumped so quickly on all these right-wing bandwagons. Almost as if he feels comfortable there.
But, as I said, we sent him a generous check thanks directly to reminders from repugs here about why it is important! :-)
June 28, 2008 at 6:03 pm #629068
TrickParticipantFrontline (may favorite show) did an investigation on the illegal eavesdropping of americans. It was quite spooky and ruined more than just a few lives that we’re completely innocent.
I’m glad to see that some will criticize Obama even if you’re a staunch supporter. So maybe next time when I read from the other side that we’re unwavering and blind with our support of him, they will be able to do the same with McCain.
June 28, 2008 at 6:10 pm #629069
JoBParticipantTrick…
i wish…
this is what frightens me the most in this election.. there are too many people on both sides who just regurgitate the current political spin without thinking.
if someone here says anything that causes one person to think about whether the “party line” is actually in their best interests.. that’s a good thing.
they are all politicians. we need to hold their feet to the fire to remind them that without us they don’t exist… and that we expect something for our support.
Charlabob.. we often hold the same opinions.
we disagreed about who would actually get us to the finish line intact… but i don’t think there is substantial difference in how we view the finish line.
June 28, 2008 at 6:18 pm #629070
TrickParticipantJoB,
What I fear is another election that both come closer to the middle until it becomes blurry. Just as the Gore/Bush race did.
I have faith that Obama won’t go there, but this one particular Bill is not a good way to start.
Thanks for the link you added, I stayed up to read it after I got home late last night, got to bed at 5:30am….(Yawn)
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