Do We Really Need Triple E Class Ships in Elliot Bay?

[CountingCoup]

I understand a Port brings money blah blah, but we have one of the most beautiful cities along a manicured bay that could easily be pimped up to be a major international vacation destination that would promote tourism like a Sydney or San Francisco… Can you imagine Seattle to West Seattle shoreline aligned with small shoreline hospitality industry businesses rather than a industrial Port? Can the Port be moved further North? I am not looking forward to the new vision of Triple Class E ships moving in and out of our Elliot Bay, turning it into one big giant loading station that could be best placed outside of this rare and beautiful bay in front of our city ~ Triple E size vessels expose the most gluttonous aspects of a materialistic “having stuff” society IMO…

See for yourself: http://www.worldslargestship.com

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[seaopgal]

Totally agree! Plus, the on-shore transportation issue … all the “stuff” that is shipped in on these behemoths has to be trucked/rolled out through the city.

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[anonyme]

I don’t know a lot about this issue, but what I’ve read suggests that alarm bells should be going off. I’m concerned about the effect on the environment, pollution and congestion in the Bay, the possibility of oil spills (huge ones) and the impact on our marine life – including orcas and whales. Seaopgal makes another good point, which is that more ships/cargo = more trucks, trains, etc. Between the oil trains and the coal trains, do we really need more potential waste/accidents/toxic traffic?

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[CountingCoup]

I feel we (West Seattle) got screwed with the original Port deal made by a Seattle Mayor that lived in Magnuson… And we have seriously fell behind both Portland and Vancouver in a city environment that is friendly and livable. I can just imagine an all exposed walkway, bike lane and road connecting the downtown waterfront to the tip of Alki aligned with boat friendly docks to restaurants, art shops and attractions that would encourage tourists, or just out of towner’s to enjoy our City. It could still be a cruise ship harbor, and the Port could be moved to a least impacted area. If anytime was the time to make a change, its now as they are trying to rebuild the Port to take these Extra Large Behemoth ships that will change the look and feel of what exists today…

This is the beginning to an end we may not like: https://westseattleblog.com/2014/08/port-seeks-to-sell-cranes-at-west-seattles-closed-empty-terminal-5/

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[acemotel]

Stop driving your car, stop wearing clothes, stop wearing shoes, boots, raincoats, socks, slippers and your nice hunting jacket, stop using all the thousands of things you use on a daily basis, including your shave cream, your soap, your can opener, your carpets, your furniture (unless it comes from North Carolina), your pencils your furnace, your windows, your granite counter tops. You get the picture. Do you live adjacent to Terminal 5 and feel your property has increased value now that you don’t have to see and hear POS operations there? The port has been here longer than you have, and longer than your parents, too. Thousands of people in West Seattle (and elsewhere) are supported by the family-wage jobs in the maritime industry.

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[JoB]

I think one of the things that makes Seattle’s port unique is the working port

i too would like to see more tourist access and facilities..

but i would like to see them on Alki

with an incredible public transportation system making it easy to get around

it’s time for the NIMBY folks to get on board for the rest of us…

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[CountingCoup]

I appreciate any debate, but Mr AceMotel_sarcasm, you have no idea how long I have lived in West Seattle, and know nothing about my connections amongst friends that have worked with the Port since I can remember. All of the commerce coming in by the containers is part of the stuff we own yes, but my proposal is to build the shipping dock elsewhere and clear the space to expand the perimeter of the city around our waterway. You will get still get your precious stuff from hopefully Costco, or most likely Walmart regardless…

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[rw]

Building a Port elsewhere is not that easy. To suggest that it is would basically abdicate the west coast commercial shipping market to Tacoma or (more likely) Vancouver, Prince Rupert, LA, or Oakland-San Francisco.

At the same time, any reengineering of existing Port facilities to accommodate larger ships has to pencil out from a financial perspective for the taxpayers, for the community (from a transportation and livability perspective), and for the potential customers. Balancing all those requirements will be a very difficult task, if it is even doable.

Do I think it is worthwhile to research the opportunities, costs, and risks? Absolutely. I think Seattle needs to be in the game. Do I think we need to be in the game at all costs? Absolutely not. In the future it may make more sense to have fewer but larger ports on the west coast, and perhaps we come out on the short end of the stick. If so, we as a city will still have plenty of challenges in making our waterfront productive and a positive contribution to the long-term welfare of our community.

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[Kevin]

Seattle needs to start thinking NOW about how to accommodate this new breed of larger class ships. We cannot afford to lose the income and jobs that the shipping industry provides.

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History repeats itself, and we can expect to see the 3E vessels become outdated by the arrival of the 4E and 5E vessels that we may see by mid century. We should be thinking about the 4E and 5E vessels NOW!

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After all, it was just 20+ years between when Orville Wright stated that no airplane could fly between New York and Paris without stopping, and then Charles Lindbergh later proved him wrong.

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And then… just another 42 years until the first man stepped on the surface of the moon.

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Anyone care to make guesses as to when we might see a 10E container ship?

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http://wrightbrothers.info/quotes.php

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[CountingCoup]

I completely agree on all accounts RW, the infrastructure alone would be a tall task but would also include new jobs, and the relocation would take a lot of planning, and the balance of return on investment would need to be analyzed and scrutinized as it would be projected out. I’m not proposing Seattle give up its Port, obviously we have founded our city on being a Port city. I am just suggesting that we look for another area, that would have less impact on city traffic via an exlusive truck route to I-5 both North and South. The jobs of the Port wouldn’t go away, they would be re-located, in fact more jobs would be created building the necessary infrastructure. Seattle is more that lucky to be geographically located along one of the nicest Bay Harbors and I’m sorry if people can’t imagine the potential, but everytime I travel somewhere (recently Vancouver) in the NW that has invested in their cities and put a little city planning thought process in place, I imagine how Seattle to could expand to do the same utilizing the natural shoreline we are so lucky to have here ~

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[JoB]

counting coup

you know city planning is not the Seattle way

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[metrognome]

so, you want to move a long-established container port and transportation network north (toward the former mayor’s home in Magnolia) to establish a ‘Seattle to West Seattle shoreline aligned with small shoreline hospitality industry businesses’.

Coupla questions:

1) whose gonna pay the massive relocation costs, esp. in light of rw’s comments. Does this move include Harbor Island as well?;

2) where is all the container truck traffic gonna go to get to I-5? (hint: south on soon-to-be-rebuilt Alaskan Way, through the soon-to-be Waterfront Park, past Colman Dock and all its traffic and past all those new hospitality-related businesses;

3) why not establish this string of hospitality business to the north instead, incorporating the existing waterfront businesses? This could easily connect to bike trails and roads to the rest of the city rather than deadending visitors in WS. I know, Magnolia is not WS, and WS deserves the best, despite the cost. BTW, Magnolia has more lawyers per square inch than any other neighborhood in Seattle …

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[wakeflood]

I haven’t got time right now to throw all my thoughts out but here’s a couple of things that jumped to mind…

There’s a limit to how big things can get and still be profitable/functional. The ULBC’s (Ultra Large Bulk Carriers) that were envisioned in the 1990’s to be the next step in sea transport didn’t pan out. Many are either sitting idle or were cut up for scrap before their usable life was spent.

The Airbus A380 is looking less and less likely to break even and they’re already trying to sort out if they can lease them to secondary markets at a profit, which may not happen and those too may end up in mothballs before their time.

Not everything scales infinitely.

I suspect EEE class will be as big as they can functionally get as well.

Having said that, I’m hoping that the port can be a good and responsible neighbor to the rest of WS, by supporting our shared desires for quality of life and transportation issues. I truly believe there’s some quid pro quo that can involve port space, Sound Transit, Metro, and City DPD that can work. It won’t be easy but it would be worth pursuing for all involved.

Might as well start from a place of cooperation – at least until we find out who doesn’t feel like working toward a solution that benefits all.

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[JayDee]

Mayor McGinn was all for turning downtown into Disneyland for tourists, albeit Disneyland with drug deals at 3rd and Pike.

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One of the things I like about Seattle is the active sea port and no, there is no place we can move it infrastructure wise. San Francisco is a tarted up whore compared to Seattle–an expensive one at that. No port, no Fishermen at “Fisherman’s Wharf”.

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Seeing T-5 empty makes my gut hurt. We should merge our Port with Tacoma’s and fight like heck to get the Triple E ships to call here. Let the Port of Seattle be a Port, not a redevelopment agency (see Waterfront Condos).

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Flame off.

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[Talaki34]

Instead of moving the Port of Seattle I would rather see it realize its potential as a “Port if the Future.” With real commitment to the Port, the health of Puget Sound and all its contributing waterways, we would see an increase of good paying jobs and revitalization of infrastructure. Breathing new life into the Port would create a real source of community pride that benefits everyone and could demonstrate to the world that meeting the social needs of people, environmental responsibility and business growth is attainable and sustainable.

http://www.portofgothenburg.com/About-the-port/Sustainable-port/

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[JoB]

Lets not forget..

a thriving Port in the middle of a major US city is a tourist attraction…

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[B-squared]

Lone voice in the wilderness I guess, but I would rather have a working port than a big tourist destination. I have never understood what folks find attractive in the concept….” be a major international vacation destination that would promote tourism like a Sydney or San Francisco”. The city and county are already absorbing more residents – adding more tourist is very unappealing and soooo not the direction that I would support.

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[wakeflood]

Yeah, I get what you’re saying, B2. Thriving economies that are resistant to the inevitable business cycles are diverse ones.

We’re a 6 mos. of the year tourist destination. Seems like plenty of time and enough local stuff to do on that front already. But that’s just my take from deciding that I can’t really visit Pike Place Market between May and September. ;-)

I’m ok with maintaining some working port elements and it certainly has impacts. BUT, tourism has its OWN externalities – which are often forgotten. (Cruise ships dumping garbage and human waste before reaching port, diesel pollution, etc.)

Sure, it’s likely a lower environmental impact on the whole than a port but it might be close depending on the relative scale of each activity.

I guess I’m saying that finding balance and maintaining economic diversity is optimum for all involved – especially residents of the area.

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[bailecyclist]

A few observations relevant to this discussion: First, there are a number of jobs associated with Port operations – the exact number is unknown. The estimates are all done by Port-paid consultants. Second, the Port’s marine operations are heavily subsidized by property taxes, often overlooked on our tax notices. Third, re-doing T-5 is gonna cost a fortune, and it will be paid by property taxpayers. Fourth, saying that Port operations are a tourist attraction is a real stretch. Operations areas are secure and largely not visible. And container stacks along the waterfront block views and certainly do not attract viewers. Fifth, we have a huge harbor resource in the Everett area, and one that has much better rail access. Shipping out of the Everett area would be much more efficient than from T5 or T18. Just sayin’.

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[JoB]

baileycyclist..

before i became a Seattle resident… i used to come to Seattle to sit up in Pike Place Market and watch the shipping traffic go by.

the first year we lived here we lived on the view side of California so that i could watch the shipping traffic go by..

i visit the waterfront area regularly now so i can watch the shipping traffic go by.

and when people come visit .. one of the highlights of the trip is going where they can see the working port….

if you don’t know that the active port part of Elliot Bay attracts tourists… it’s probably because you simply aren’t much interested in them yourself.

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[JayDee]

@Bailecyclist:

I’ve recently started working in Everett off and on, and in the harbor area the City is planning on some new industrial uses, but mostly mixed use–turning the harbor into a neighborhood. Plus, I am not certain how available deep berths are up there–one of Seattle’s advantages. The presence of the Navy is one of the obstacles as well in restricting land use.

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Now that the Parks Special District is set up, we will have enough tourist attracting waterfront in the future. Assuming Bertha is not dead and buried. And yes, the Port does adsorb property taxes. In 2013, the Port taxed us $27.4 million, a relative bargain opposed to the State, County and City of Seattle portions.

http://www.seattle.gov/parks/legacy/files/taxes_taxrates_levies_101.pdf

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[PLS]

Hahahahahaa! Oh yeah, whenever I get a visitor from out of town the first thing they want to do is go see the working port. Geez. I suggest Snoqualmie Falls, the Market, the Wheel/waterfront, SAM, Lincoln Park, Boeing Field, etc . . . but no – they want to watch some beeping cranes lift dirty containers onto trains that will keep them up later that night blaring. NOT.

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[wsn00b]

Just noticed all that empty tarmac at T-5 last night. Nom nom. I’d like to practice donuts in my car there. Maybe the port can setup some legal races, driving safety schools, or talk to local autocrossing clubs to generate money.

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[PLS]

http://stevesmaritime.com/A380.jpg

It’s not much longer than current ships, perhaps, but so much bigger and taller loaded. Though it is “only slightly shorter than the Empire State Building is high”!

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And the cranes and infrastructure are going to be ???x the size to support it. You won’t be able to see West Seattle from the waterfront anymore!

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“With a sailing draft of 14.5 meters (48′) she is too deep for most American ports and according to Maersk, the vessel will be calling on just 13 ports, all located in Asia and Northern Europe. The vessel is also too large for even the expanded Panama Canal, but is well within the maximum 20 meter draft and 77.5 meter beam requirements for vessels sailing through the Suez Canal.”

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So we’re going to put how much money into supporting a ship that is designed and focused on the Europe-Asia shipping market? Granted I guess if we could be the first US port to dredge it out and crane it up it’d make the Chinese happy.

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[JoB]

PLS…

you forgot the troll

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