Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Why healthcare over education?
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July 20, 2012 at 1:09 am #604048
JVMemberOur healthcare system is one of the best in the world. It is flawed, and could use some repairs, but was overhauling healthcare more important than fixing our education system?
Our education system is downright crap, especially for the poor and people of color. Public K-12 is ridiculously expensive and we get a terrible return on investment.
(Universities are also a racket, that I’ll get into later)
So why was healthcare a higher priority than education?
July 20, 2012 at 1:31 am #764335
kootchmanMemberFor some states it’s not. There are at least 10 states that aren’t going to accept the expansion because of the increased costs. Most cite having to cut education as the reason. There are some states in such horrid condition, even if they wanted to participate they can’t afford the expansion of coverage. I just read a report that said less than half the states have the resources to pick up the expansion of coverage without cutting education, fire and safety, and other services. Why was it a priority? … it has been the golden calf of the left for 50 years… they got the super majority they needed and regardless of the ability to pay… or reflecting on the economic realities.. they made the grab.
July 20, 2012 at 3:50 am #764336
JoBParticipantJV.. our healthcare system was adequate but expensive for those who could get health insurance…
financially devastating for those who couldn’t.
you seem to forget that before the big financial collapse the number one cause of bankruptcy was medical expenses.
i’m not sure that it isn’t still.
if you are going to fix education the way you would fix health care..
we are in big trouble.
July 20, 2012 at 3:52 am #764337
JoBParticipantkootch..
what you fail to point out is that in those states middle class entrepreneurs will have more affordable access to healthcare than the underemployed.
that isn’t a victory for the majority of their citizens
July 20, 2012 at 4:01 am #764338
kgdlgParticipantOur healthcare is absolutely not world class. It is good for those that can afford it and the very very poor who happen to have Medicaid. Otherwise it is terrible with terrible outcomes on so many levels – infant mortality, preventative diseases, etc etc. We should not live in a country where things like healthcare, education and housing all depend on how much money you make. These things shoukd be rights provided by society and recognized as common goods. But oh wait, that is kinda like socialism…
July 20, 2012 at 5:47 am #764339
JVMemberInteresting JoB/kgdlg. (not sarcastic or disagreeing…yet)
You both mention income/class and healthcare, but didn’t touch education. Why?
You mention the bankruptcy aspect, but keep in mind that bankruptcy doesn’t mean that you are thrown into the streets. It means restructuring/settling debt, bad credit, etc. Not exactly a death sentence.
But being pushed through a terrible education system, then unable to get a job DOES mean a life sentence. Zero options.
Which is worse? I’d rather be bankrupt and educated than be ignorant, but have somebody else paying for my healthcare.
July 20, 2012 at 7:33 am #764340
kootchmanMemberwe don’t want to talk about education… it’s too painful.
July 20, 2012 at 1:22 pm #764341
redblackParticipantif we, as a people, decide to go where kgdlg suggests, then we have to have more government revenue and a tax system that pays for those things.
why is education funding pinned to property taxes? when the housing market suffers, so does education funding. similarly, why is health insurance pinned to employment? why attach these totally incongruous things and make one dependent on the other?
are you guys starting to see why “cut cut cut” isn’t the best way to balance budgets? we need to address how we pay for things, and make sure that the models are sustainable.
July 20, 2012 at 1:38 pm #764342
kgdlgParticipantEducation in Seattle is deplorable, I agree. And it is vexing and I find myself agreeing with Kootch on much of it.
But I refuse to play the education vs. Healthcare game. I just think it is more deplorable that we live in a country that does what redblack has pointed out instead of thinking holistically about what we as a society need to be healthy and productive. So much of your station in life is tied to your zipcode. are there some people that break out of this and become wildly successful by luck or hard work? Yes. I am more concerned with everyone thAt gets left behind.
Revenue is ridiculous in this country and especially WA State. The fact that we collect most of our revenue through property and sales tax is ludicrous. I mean nutso. But I don’t think it will change so we are locked into disfunction and regressive taxation. My father is in the process of getting his Canadian citizenship back, I may follow.
Kootch, have a field day with this one.
July 20, 2012 at 5:50 pm #764343
JVMemberkgdlg, you/we have to choose because resources are finite. Children are allowed to pretend adults have to make hard choices.
Pretend you own 2 race cars. One is doing pretty well, always comes in toward the top of the pack, but could be better with some minor repairs. The other is crashed on the side of the track, on fire.
So why healthcare? I know, kootch knows, you know, Redblack knows but won’t say it.
Redblack:
why is education funding pinned to property taxes? when the housing market suffers, so does education funding.
And during the housing boom, how were our schools performing? Answer: just as terrible. Maybe throwing more money at a poorly run organization isn’t the best way to get better results.
July 20, 2012 at 6:30 pm #764344
miwsParticipantSo, once again, JV; survival of the fittest?
T’hell with the weak and “inferior”?
Just let ’em die off?
Mike
July 20, 2012 at 6:40 pm #764345
kgdlgParticipantJv! Did you see me agree with kootch about Ed fixes?!?!? Cut me some slack please. I would willingly take some structural changes in exchange for an income tax. What say you?
July 20, 2012 at 6:41 pm #764346
WorldCitizenParticipant“Throwing money at the problem” is a very simplistic way to look at it. Once could argue that the reason we have so few quality teachers is that we don’t offer enough in salary to pull from the private workforce and get the best and the brightest to guide our youth in their development.
Look, I know that’s a simplistic way of looking at it as well, but there are just a *few* more complexities than what will be covered in this conversation.
July 20, 2012 at 7:03 pm #764347
dobroParticipantThere won’t be any complexities covered in this conversation. It’s based on a false premise that just sets up people to tee off on a symphony of talking points and tangents.
July 20, 2012 at 8:52 pm #764348
kootchmanMemberor ..gosh they are right… I would have never thought of that. kgdlg, I am fine with you moving to Canada.. eh? If that is where your best interests are I think you do what you think best for yourself. That is how the boat goes down the river.. people looking at their choices and taking the ones that suit them best. NY has income taxes.. bad education system, CA has income taxes worse education system, it’s pretty universal income taxes or no. Ironic, but we get a whopping share of Canada’s engineers, doctors, advanced degreed professionals to this day. In a perverse sorta way, Canada is now fast tracking their version of VISA to citizenship for advanced degreed students cause the USA siphons off so many.. especially healthcare, Government can do many things.. not all of them well. we gave them the education franchise with the stroke of the Jimmy Carter pen. Our world standing has fallen ever since. Out SAT and ACT scores certaily don’t reflect the expense. Now, by any reasonable observation.. it’s not a a success. Try and walk it back! You do know in Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba.. they fund Catholic and Protestant schools? we also spend more or our GDP on public schools than Canada.. AND.. that does not include our much larger and faster growing private school sector.. It is 5.7 and 5.2 per cent respectively. So money is not the reason. And Canada certainly does use property taxes to fund their schools, not income taxes.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp
July 20, 2012 at 9:57 pm #764349
kootchmanMemberRB.. why is education funding pinned to property taxes? when the housing market suffers, so does education funding.
Uh.. did anyone here get a reduction in their property taxes? Did the county, state, city assessors doa 30% write down in valuations and reduce property taxes accordingly?
July 20, 2012 at 10:37 pm #764350
KBearParticipantKootch, a reduction in property value does not necessarily mean a reduction in tax. Your property value determines your SHARE of the total tax to be collected. If everyone’s value goes down the same amount, your own share remains the same. If other people’s property values go down more than yours, your tax might increase, even though your property value went down.
July 20, 2012 at 11:07 pm #764351
JVMemberMIWS
So, once again, JV; survival of the fittest?
T’hell with the weak and “inferior”?
Just let ’em die off?
Mike
Does anybody, including mike, know what he is talking about? I will never know what goes on in that head of yours…I’m not sure you know either. (If I would have posted a series of pictures maybe you would have followed the conversation better.)
I am talking about exactly the opposite. Improving our education system to help everybody, especially the poorest.
.
July 20, 2012 at 11:18 pm #764352
JVMemberSo since I haven’t heard any legitimate reasons why somebody would ignore our failing education, and instead tackle our healthcare system, I’ll give you the answer.
It’s political. It’s because public education is fully owned by the democrats. They already have total control from the teachers unions on down to the content they teach, so why mess with a good thing? After all, their kids don’t go to icky public schools so why would they care? As an added bonus, if people can’t do math, they won’t complain about spending. If they can’t read or get a job, they will be dependent on the Gubmint. You know what that means!! More democrat voters!!
If you like how public schools are working out, just wait…healthcare is on its way to being run by the same clowns.
July 20, 2012 at 11:24 pm #764353
JVMemberTo answer Kgdlg, no I wouldn’t take that deal. Our schools aren’t failing due to the lack of funding. The teachers unions don’t give a sh!t about the education they are providing.
Give the same people twice as much money and you’ll have better paid administrators and more levels of administration, but the good teachers won’t ever see that money, and the results will still be the same. I’d double or triple the pay of good teachers, and cut the worthless layers of “school officials” at every level.
July 20, 2012 at 11:53 pm #764354
dobroParticipantSee what I mean?
July 21, 2012 at 12:11 am #764355
kootchmanMemberI am sure there is universal experience out there we all share. Ever worked in a company where there were the “death star” workers? Nothing was ever right, management was stupid, they take full advantage of sick leave… nothing is right. They kill morale, pass on their attitude to new hires.. eventually, before they do too much damage.. ya can em. We give teachers tenure. A job for life, good, bad or indifferent. Tenure was an academic freedom, so professors could do research, espouse controversial perspectives, and reveal data that might challenge conventions. It was not designed for school teachers. Private industry hates to turn over staff.. it’s expensive, disruptive, and we hired them in the hopes that they would do well. Even with that inherent reluctance, the turnover rate is around 8-10 per cent. Jack Welch, said the healthiest, most successful business would turn over the bottom 10%. Yet, teachers are supposed to be a magical group of folks.. they defy human nature and are all perfect and are well suited to their jobs. Once they have tenure, you can’t dynamite them out of a job. You just inflict the least of the public schools with the role of warehouses for the least motivated, qualified, where upper income, demanding parents are not part of the equation. They don’t have to deal with an involved and critical parent set. Poor kids…
Would you pay Geoffery Canada 250K a year as your school principal? In a second. This year we have a chance at reforming public education… Charter Schools.. vehemently opposed by the teachers union., … these things can happen. You have to break the union monopoly… schools are like any other product … yes I will pay more.. but no more for more of the same.
July 21, 2012 at 12:30 am #764356
kootchmanMemberNo Dobro we don’t see what you mean. Really. Do you see what we mean?
July 21, 2012 at 12:39 am #764357
JoBParticipantJV.. JV>> JV>>
setting up a false premise so that you can score won’t gain you any points in debate…
I could counter with why did President Bush target education with No Child Left Behind instead of targeting healthcare?
because it was a win win for him.. he could guarantee public dollars for both his private education cronies and his private healthcare cronies at the same time!
SLAM! DUNK!
and that would make us both ignorant.
can we back away from this little precipice you constructed and have substantive conversation now?
July 21, 2012 at 12:41 am #764358
JoBParticipantJV
“You mention the bankruptcy aspect, but keep in mind that bankruptcy doesn’t mean that you are thrown into the streets. It means restructuring/settling debt, bad credit, etc. Not exactly a death sentence.”
i beg to differ.
if your bankruptcy is for medical reasons, chances are that your job and our health care insurance went south at about the same time as the bankruptcy.
so did your employ-ability.
so where exactly do you think those who are sick and unemployable end up?
I’ll give you a hint.. it isn’t anyplace you would want to be living.
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