The Road Diet Experience: Are You Experienced?

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  • #702694

    Julie
    Member

    Can’t pass up that opportunity!

    From Google maps, looks like about half a mile. So, at 35 mph, it would take .5/35/60 minutes, or 2.38 (rounded).

    At 15 mph, it would take .5/15/60 minutes, or 5.55 minutes (rounded).

    5.55-2.38=3.17 minutes, or 190.2 seconds.

    So the cyclist cost JoB a little over 3 minutes. I daresay it felt like much more, but the cyclist likely thought her safety worth the price.

    #702695

    JoB
    Participant

    Julie…

    the sharrow lane may only extend for 1/2 a mile.. but i followed that cyclist for a full mile…

    and i wasn’t so worried about the time as i was about the impatient drivers behind me…

    one of whom chose to pass both the rider and myself and nearly caused a collision that would have taken both of us out in the process…

    the same impatience on the part of drivers that necessitated the turn lane in the middle of the street rears it’s ugly head when anything slows the progress of traffic.

    I am not anti-bike at all…

    i think we need to invest in safe separate bike lanes to facilitate traffic and encourage more bike traffic.

    Al…

    i read Traffic when it came out…

    apparently i focused more on the safety part of the book than the part about taking advantage of free pavement regardless of how you cause brake lights to flash behind you .. thereby causing the traffic tie-ups you contend to avoid ;->

    #702696

    Julie
    Member

    Even worse, JoB: Not only did I focus on the “Alaska to just south of Fauntleroy Park” rather than the 1 mile of your post, I was calculating too late at night and I’m embarrassed to say I was careless, and my calculation was bad, too!

    The correct calculation should be:

    1 mile at 35 mph: 1/35 TIMES 60: 1 minute 43 seconds

    1 mile at 15 mph: 1/15 TIMES 60: 4 minutes

    4 minutes minus 1:43 = 2 minutes 17 seconds.

    I just couldn’t resist the opportunity to do the calculation. I know you’re not anti-bike!

    #702697

    Al
    Participant

    “i read Traffic when it came out…apparently i focused more on the safety part of the book than the part about taking advantage of free pavement regardless of how you cause brake lights to flash behind you .. thereby causing the traffic tie-ups you contend to avoid ;->”

    Aha. Then you should re-read it. In the very first chapters it explains the use of roadways; i.e. they are not exclusively for motor vehicle use, but for “transportation” purposes. “Traffic” is not exclusively a term for motor vehicles which is a huge point of the book. And what’s also interesting is that the psychology of driving is discussed in detail. You PERCEIVE you are held up when in all actuality you are not really slowed down all that much. That person in front of you has every right to use “his” bit of roadway, just as much as you and he does not have to yield the right of way and his safety just so you, in the faster, bigger, more dangerous vehicle can proceed as if you alone owned the piece of property you are driving over. As for those cars behind you, you are still ahead of them – and proceeding safely. You have no way to inform them of what’s going on, they will need to drive safely as as well with no communication between anyone (also discussed in the book). That is not the “fault” of the cyclist who, as far as I can tell, was riding safely and properly.

    #702698

    JoB
    Participant

    Al…

    whoa nelly.. what a lot of focus on rights…

    i didn’t fault the cyclist.. i fault the system.

    however, i do think the rider would have been a lot smarter to utilize the options she had to safely pull to the side without losing either speed or flexibility…

    the rider is safer if they ride in such a way that facilitates faster traffic whenever possible… because if they don’t drivers will try to pass..

    the ugly truth is that while i might have the patience to follow a bike using the entire roadway for an entire mile..

    i am the exception.. not the rule.

    in the Sunday newspaper..

    a noted biker was quoted as saying that he no longer bikes to work because of increased traffic and the increasing number of new bikers who do not understand the rules of the roadway…

    i contend that the rules of the roadway include far more than what is printed int he driver’s manual.

    and have to add that i see examples of that behavior on the part of bicyclists every time i get in my car,,,

    or share a path on foot with an ever increasing number of bikers who think they are on a speedway track designed for racers.

    there are paths in Lincoln park that are no longer safe to walk dogs on because it is nearly impossible to get both yourself and your dog out of the way when a bicycle speeds up from behind you without bothering to let you know they are coming.

    though to be perfectly fair.. runners are as inconsiderate on the trails in Lincoln park as bikers…

    it doesn’t seem to matter whether people are on foot or on skates or skateboards or bikes or motor cycles or cars or …. they seem to be universally focusing on their own rights and completely unconcerned with yours…

    if i am against anything… I am against people everywhere who are so embedded in getting everything they have a “right” to that they are totally insensitive to those with whom they share space…

    sorry about the typos and slipped keys.. i am too tired to edit this mroning

    #702699

    Smitty
    Participant

    I don’t know about you, but I thought that the Spokane street viaduct “road diet” worked out just swell.

    #702700

    DP
    Member

    JoB: I’m glad we agree on putting in more dedicated bike lanes/paths. I retract my earlier statement about bicyclists never being rude. I don’t really see it (or maybe I just don’t notice it) as much as you do, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not happening. I guess bicyclists are capable of being rude, just like everyone else.

    I do think you’re overstating the problem of bicycles hogging the road, but it’s not because you’re anti-bike or anything. Rather, it’s because of your particular driving habits and your take on the “rules of the road.”

    Based on your comments on this and other threads (e.g., the zipper merge thread) I am assuming that you have a very conservative approach to both merging with and passing other traffic, whether a bicycle is involved or not.

    That’s fine. However, there is a trade-off when you do that. If you’re going to wait until you’ve got what you consider to be a comfortable space in which to pass the bicyclist, then you should expect to spend a little more time behind bicyclists. You should also expect traffic to pile up behind you a bit.

    You never did answer my question about where you were on Fauntleroy, exactly, when you were stuck behind the bike for a mile, but I’m going to assume it was southbound, because southbound has got the longest stretches without dedicated bike lanes. (If there was a dedicated bike lane where you were at, there’s no reason why the bicyclist wouldn’t have been in that.)

    In any case, on those parts of Fauntleroy with no dedicated bike lane there are always two travel lanes, one of which is always a sharrow.

    The photo below shows a sample stretch of southbound Fauntleroy (7100 block), with the sharrow + car lane configuration.

    Let us imagine that your vehicle is the darkly colored car inside the circle. As you can see, there’s plenty of room for a car to pass a cyclist on that stretch of road—check out the motorcyle in the NB lane for perspective—and a bicylist would have to be straddling the sharrow AND the car lane to prevent you from passing for a whole mile. But honestly, why would any cyclist hog two lanes like that, when he could have his own full lane (the sharrow) to occupy? It makes no sense.

    What I think is happening here is that you are being SO cautious that you won’t go around the bicyclist even when there is enough room to do so safely.

    And again, that’s your decision. But try not to be surprised when you don’t see the bicyclist pulling over to the far side of his lane to accommodate you. (Why should he?) And don’t be irked at the drivers behind you honking their horns and “riding your tailpipe,” as you’ve put it. Because those other drivers are just doing what comes natural.

    #702701

    JanS
    Participant

    why indeed would a bicyclist do that…well, because they can. Yes, there are rude bicyclists, and yes, some even think they own the road, and look down on , frown on auto drivers as being somehow less than they are. But it’s like that in almost everything, when you think about it. And it’s those people who give bicyclists a bad name. Just because something is there (a sharrows, a speed limit, etc) does not automatically mean that it will be utilized correctly. Not all drivers are impatient asses, and not all bicyclists are perfect :)

    #702702

    JoB
    Participant

    DP..

    this little old lady once aced a performance driving school.. so it’s likely my driving style isn’t THAT conservative.

    Agreed.. i am more conservative than i once was because my reactions aren’t what they were decades ago…

    but still … they are better than average. quick reactions have saved me from many an accidental impact with drivers who think themselves far more competent.

    One thing that school taught me is that defensive driving is the most important skill any driver can learn.. and i do drive very defensively because there are a lot of complete idiots behind the wheel these days.

    when your driving maneuvers cause other drivers to put their foot on the brakes …

    you have crossed the line between aggressive and unsafe driving.

    the problem with the kind of aggressive use of every spare bit of pavement that is often justified by quotes from the book Traffic is that it causes a sea of brake lights in it’s wake…

    causing the kind of traffic jams the self satisfied proponents say they are purposefully avoiding.

    of course they never see them…

    having sped along their merry way…

    people like me.. who drive defensively…

    keep people like that from the accidents they so richly deserve..

    I will be driving long after those accidents waiting for a place to happen have totaled their cars.

    i call that safe…

    but you can call it conservative if you want to

    #702703

    Al
    Participant

    Oh JoB, I do appreciate your responses. And yes, I am going to defend my “right” to be on the roadway and use the roadway in my legal rights as a cyclist (or motorcyclist or driver). However, I’ll re-iterate, this doesn’t mean that I give up my right of way just because someone else wants to pass me.

    If I, or whomever, is riding a bit futher to the left than YOU want, that doesn’t mean I HAVE to pull over for you. Fauntleroy is fraught (yes, fraught) with parked cars, opening vehicle doors, buses, etc. that a cyclist has to manoeuver around, while simultaneously negotiating with passing traffic. This demands defensive RIDING ergo the lane position. It’s more dangerous to keep swerving in and out of traffic, riding unpredictably than to maintain a consistent route down the roadway.

    Just because you, or any other person, think that riding a bicycle is dangerous business doesn’t make it right to think that they don’t belong on the road. What makes cycling dangerous is most often the very drivers that are sharing the road with the cyclist. If everyone drove defensively and followed the rules of the road (and I don’t think you did anything wrong here – you weren’t comfortable passing and you didn’t which is correct) then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

    #702704

    JoB
    Participant

    Al,

    sharing the roads with inattentive drivers while on a bicycle is inherently dangerous. Those hybrid creatures can kill you in the blink of an eye.

    I speak from experience. I chose a bicycle for my major source of transportation until i became too ill to do so. It’s one of the things i miss most.. but I have scars on my face that have never quite faded due to one near collision and scars on my leg from being run off the road.

    I have lost two friends to bicycle/auto collisions..

    and they were both careful riders.

    i would never have suggested a bicyclist should pull over next to a line of parked cars…

    but i do think that bicyclists sharing the road with autos would be a lot safer if they pulled over into a prolonged area free of parked cars when they have cars following them.

    that is what i meant by “safely pull over without losing speed or flexibility” …

    that bicyclist had every right to consume that entire lane at any speed she chose…

    but having the right doesn’t make that the safest choice. An experienced rider would know that…

    As long as you have inexperienced and/or stupid people on bicycles sharing a road with inexperienced and/or stupid people in cars there are going to be accidents…

    and the bicyclist is going to come up on the short end of a collision every time.

    Bicyclists would be a lot safer and commutes a lot faster if there was a good consistent dedicated bike lane available…

    personally, i would ban on street parking on arterials and put in dedicated bike lanes….

    Now.. wouldn’t that just stir up a major fuss.

    #702705

    Al
    Participant

    Ah, JoB, I think we are in agreement that the streets are a dangerous place due to the amount of motor vehicles being driven, especially those manned by drivers who are aggressive and dangerous!

    ;-)

    #702706

    JoB
    Participant

    Al. :)

    #702707

    Jeffro
    Member

    DP, thanks for the article. It was a trip! As for the Admiral work, I don’t know if it will make things better for cyclists. Admiral from Olga to the bridge is part of my regular route, and I usually ride down the right lane at speed limit (which is still not fast enough for some people) and up the hill on the sidewalk. A dedicated lane downhill might be nice when it’s raining, so I could feel safe slowing down, but usually this stretch is ok. I think I would continue to take the sidewalk uphill.

    The stretch of road from Olga to Starbucks I avoid at all costs. I don’t know if that stretch is part of the plan, but to narrow that to one lane would be a huge improvement, most of all to pedestrians who have no safe place to cross, and I think cars would also benefit with a much safer road.

    As far as having a lane on the road vs a dedicated bike trail, both are nice, I usually prefer road to path. There really is no such thing as a dedicated bike trail, as there will also be roller bladers, dog walkers, very new learners, speed walkers, stroller pushers, you name it. Trails are nice, but I see them more as recreation than as a network of roads to get you somewhere.

    #702708

    BikerDude
    Member

    The Admiral section from Olga to the WSB why change it, it is fine as it is. I have ridden my bike up and down the hill numerous times and it is fine as is. I have also ridden from Olga to California in the sharrow and felt just fine.

    #702709

    DP
    Member

    Well, it looks like there really aren’t going to be any major changes along Admiral after all. All traffic lanes will stay the same, with a new pedestrian crossing at the north end. A parking lane will be swapped for an uphill bike lane.

    A gain for a few bicyclists; a loss for a few car parkers.

    “Move along people. Nothing to see here.”

    https://westseattleblog.com/2010/09/admiral-way-restriping

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