Stat in todays Seattle Times

[hooper1961]

those that build roads buy products and services from others JoB!

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[Ms. Sparkles]

Getting back to the original post – dispite your inferences about Hoops motives for posting, this statistic does bring up a valid question – Why is it okay to have children you can’t provide for on your own?

The argument that children are so valuable that their production is more important than anything else falls flat from a societal stand point because we have very few government policies and even less funding for programs for children.

The argument that the biological imperative trumps rational thought is plausable but then begs the question of whether we as a culture are inflicting harm by allowing members a pass and dealing with the full consequences of their actions?

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[redblack]

in a lousy economy, the reasons are myriad why a mother-to-be may need to seek government assistance during pregnancy.

do i have to lay them all out?

i have a question for all of you who think poor people shouldn’t be having babies if they need a little help from the government:

are you opposed to abortion? how about employer-funded health insurance that covers contraception? how about “free” contraception for high school kids? planned parenthood funding from the government?

like it or not, sexual abstinence is a fantasy, even among christians. hell, even clergy get urges for sex. we’re human beings. it goes with the genetics. and, like it or not, “accidents” happen and plans fail.

who do you think you are, anyway? despite your secret wishes, people don’t fit into pigeonholes.

even if they’re poor.

how would you all like it if i told you what i think of your ability to raise children into adults? because i have to tell you, i see a lot of self-reliant people with means walking among us who i believe are unfit to be parents.

the only difference between you and me is that i don’t run around the internet with my hair on fire demanding that they give their kids up for adoption, audaciously believing that i have the right to determine who should and shouldn’t reproduce. or that i even have the right to determine governmental policy about it.

here’s a free clue: good parenting isn’t always about the money.

and that’s what we want, isn’t it? good parents?

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[HMC Rich]

Jo, you completely took everything too literally. My nuance was tongue in cheek and not clear enough. NOT CLEAR ENOUGH. But I think you were too strong in your answer which was misguided and did not need the vulgarity.

Maybe you should back off. You were wrong because you did not understand what you were accusing me of is not what I want to do. I believe I hit a nerve somehow.

Tell me, was the f bomb necessary? Standards make us better.

So, because of a few if you guys rant against it, I think I will start pushing back. HMMMMM.

Back to topic. A conservative would not mandate adoption. But a liberal will mandate supplying free contraception, making everyone pay, even if it goes against a person’s belief system.

I want families to raise kids. There are some awesome single parents, but if they have limited resources it is not easy. Couples usually make better role models for kids over single parents. I would rather have a good hearted single person raising a kid than one or two abusive parents raising children. I can see the state grabbing kids from bad parents (the kind that are drug addicts, put their kids in danger type) but unfortunately, there isn’t much I can do about young people having a lot of kids.

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[redblack]

so, rich, if a person on welfare “slips one past the goalie,” he/she/they should be forced to carry a child to term? because you don’t want them to have access to “free” contraception, or, god forbid, use a welfare check to buy condoms. and abortion is wrong. right?

and since you wouldn’t mandate adoption, what, then, should that government-dependent expectant mother/couple do?

let’s talk about the elephant in the room:

people have sex. rich, poor, wed, unwed, young, old, immigrant, “natural” citizen, christian, atheist, socialist, capitalist… you name it, that demographic is doing it.

go ahead, rich. push back.

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[JoB]

exactly how are women supposed to prevent conception?

Read the literature with any contraceptive device and you will find that none of them claims a 100% effective rate..

and what crystal ball would you suggest parents use to predict whether or not any of life’s little mishaps like sudden debilitating illness or accidents or economic disasters will affect them?

THIS BLAMING PEOPLE FOR CIRCUMSTANCES OVER WHICH THEY MAY HAVE HAD LITTLE CONTROL STUFF IS GETTING REALLY REALLY OLD!

those of you who are doing so are lucky i am not a vengeful woman…

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[HMC Rich]

Did I say that? I think not!! Life’s little accidents? It is part of life. We all have to deal with it. We are not immune to disasters and hardship. But You are adding pieces that I did not bring up. Also, I do not promote abstinence. I have compassion for rape victims, for the scared girl, for the family that can’t afford another child, for the surprise.

But you didn’t answer the other part of the post.

Anyway, trying to use the emotional response again, and again and again. Your sick of it? What part. Every story is different. Fact is most of us screw up.

Here is an emotional response. Support abortion, they won’t have to pay for Obama’s debt. You must hate kids. You abort the ones who you don’t want, and you are saddling the ones who do get born with a horrible debt. Meanies.

I believe The ACA is going to mandate contraceptive availability through the insurance that we will have to buy. For many people, they will be fine with that, but some aren’t because the government is mandating that they pay and receive something that they may not believe in. The people who can’t afford it won’t be turned away. There will still be government programs. You know that. For people who on some level disagree, basically the government is putting them in a full nelson and pushing until they say “uncle”.

People are human, they make mistakes. Wouldn’t it be great to be perfect? It’s not like there isn’t options. The morning after pills and cocktails are readily available. Abortion is still available. So what is your gripe?

Because I or others don’t follow your world view? We question your beliefs as you question ours. You don’t have to listen nor answer or you can listen and give your own answers. Who is being closed minded? You essentially pray to the Federal Government and tithe to it throughout the year your taxes. And if others question it, some of you disagree, and at times from various points of view, not very kindly it seems. But you have that right too.

Personal responsibility is a very difficult attribute to attain especially if you are not taught it. It is very difficult for many, no most people. All we can do is keep trying, if we understand it. Others don’t. Regardless, we will make mistakes in our life. We must help each other. But we can get on the abusers and let them know they are not helping. Nobody has to be mean either.

I wanted to find the article and couldn’t. At some point, I want to read it so I can understand what Hooper was speaking about a bit better. I was being silly and poking my rivals and you went ballistic.

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[miws]

Oh for cryin’ out loud Rich!

Jo’s comment was suggesting you “…..back the f… off….”!

She wasn’t telling you “f….off”!

This is amazing. We libs are often chastised by some conservatives to not be such wimps. To stop whining and crying. To pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. Yet you get all offended by some comment

---

words—-that you twist around in your mind, to make it sound like they were sooooooo offensive, and sooooo hurtful.

Mike

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[JoB]

rich..

pointing out that birth control fails and life doesn’t always go smoothly is an emotional argument?

wile making the assumption that people are poor or experience difficulties because they screwed up isn’t?

you assume … then presume

i point out the error in your presumptions

and my argument is emotional?

good heavens!

Rich the simple truth is that the assumptions you make don’t change the circumstances of a single person’s life..

but repeating those assumptions as though they are every person’s truth can limit the opportunities they have to change those circumstances.

I challenge those assumptions because left unchallenged they negatively affect the ability of people who find themselves in difficult circumstances .. for whatever reason.. to change their lives.

if you want people to take personal responsibility you need to give them assistance they can count on and options to change their lives.

Until you do so, blaming them for their circumstances is childish and mean.

when i get emotional, that is what makes me emotional… the meanness of it all.

You wouldn’t sit in front of me and tell me i am responsible for my own illness..

so just what makes you think it is ok to do the same thing to people you know nothing about?

talk about a sense of entitlement?

You feel entitled to pass judgment upon the lives of people you know nothing about

and then talk about how compassionate you are because you recognize exceptions

and would be willing to give those exceptions limited unspecified charity ?

give me a break!

this has nothing to do with expecting everyone to believe the way i do

and everything with expecting everyone to have at least a base level of compassion for their fellow man

and an understanding of what the phrase ‘there but for the grace of god go I” means.

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[hooper1961]

miws – and what is wrong with expecting people to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps?

i know i was fortunate but my father was not. he grew up on the wrong side of the rail road tracks, basically dirt poor (but had both parents that is a key element). he worked his way through college, got discriminated against due to his religion and eventually landed a job. he bought used cars all his life and saved a bit.

i ask again what is wrong with expecting people to pull themselves up by their own boot straps miws?

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[miws]

hoop, my beef in that comment, wasn’t with the term itself.

My beef was with, what I perceived to be, a rather wimpy and whiny reaction by Rich, as to something JoB said when many conservatives complain about libs being whiners, and imply that libs are weak in character and emotion.

But, to answer your question, there is nothing inherently wrong with expecting people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

What is wrong, is to fail to see, and/or accept, that many people have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, but those bootstraps have broken…

Mike

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[DBP]

hooper, here’s where I think you’re getting sideways of people . . .

This pulling-up-by-bootstraps thing sounds good, but that’s not what you’re really talking about in most of your posts.

When you talk about denying poor people charity medical care, when you say you want to take children away from their parents, you’re not realy talking about helping people become self-sufficient. You’re talking about punishing them.

Do you really want to teach people to eat healthy and spend their food money wisely? –Then talk about tying food stamps to cooking classes or nutrition education.

Do you want to encourage poor folks not to have children they can’t afford to raise? –Then talk about making them attend family planning classes in order to get benefits.

But don’t talk about kicking people out of hospitals, and don’t talk about taking people’s kids away from them. That’s just not gonna fly with anyone who’s got a speck of compassion or common sense.

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[Ms. Sparkles]

Redblack – I don’t know if your questions in post 53 were in reaction to my questions or something else, but I’d like to answer them;

I am NOT opposed to abortion; I strongly (and financially) support Planned Parenthood and believe in sex education / free condoms & birth control in schools. And I do believe that all people (poor or otherwise) should NOT being having babies if they need any help from the government – and here’s why;

While sex is a biological imperative and I don’t expect people to be fully rational at all times regarding having it, bringing children into the world is a whole other thing in which impulse should have little influence.

In our modern society of birth control and adoption options there really is NO excuse for keeping a child you can’t care for emotionally AND financially.

Who do I think I am? I am a woman who will admit I’ve had both an abortion at 19 and 2 children in my late 30s. I make a very comfortable living now after having been so poor I couldn’t afford groceries and thus became underweight (I didn’t know about food banks, but would have been to prideful to visit one anyway), while I worked my way through school.

So while I believe in programs to help all members of society educate and elevate themselves, I do have a problem with people having children without thinking about the consequences. I’m okay with sex “just happens” – but kids don’t “just happen” – they take time (generally 40 weeks) to “come to fruition” and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for society to expect the parents to either get their stuff together in that time or formulate another plan.

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[JoB]

Ms sparkles..

implicit in the ability to avoid having unwanted children that you can’t provide for is the option of choice.

i know i am preaching to the choir..

but the availability of accessible inexpensive birth control combined with access to the morning after pill for those times when birth control might not have been available go a long way towards reducing the need for choosing between abortion and adoption…

we can’t deny people full access to family planning options and then blame them for having children they can’t afford.

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[hooper1961]

there are condom dispensers at the community centers; and the last i looked condoms are readily available for sale at drugstores.

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[JoB]

hoop..

i really don’t know how to tell you this hoop

because i am sure it will shatter your world

but condoms don’t always prevent pregnancy

so do you blame the poor girl who insisted on condoms and still got pregnant for her lack of judgment hoop?

i really want to know.. because although my story has reached a pretty happy ending decades later …

this girl didn’t intend to end up pregnant…

did all the right things…

and still found herself giving birth on Christmas eve :(

and before you ask.. yes i married him

that was my second mistake

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[hooper1961]

yes condoms are not 100% effective that is to bad. but Adoption is a viable alternative as is abortion (government has no business telling a woman what to do with her body or paying for elective procedures)

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[miws]

but Adoption is a viable alternative as is abortion….

There were 104,236 children waiting to be adopted in FY 2011. (Link leads to a PDF).

Granted, the number has been trending downward since 2003, but do you really want to add to this number, hoop?

Mike

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[hooper1961]

orphanages were the answer in the past.

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[JoB]

good lord hoop

there you go again

condoms are not 100% effective

but government has no business telling a woman what to do with her body

just with her child

if you had ever actually visited an orphanage hoop..

you wouldn’t think they were an answer.

they still exist in the world you know:(

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[hooper1961]

facilitating single teen parents is not an answer either! it simply continues the cycle of dependency.

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[Genesee Hill]

Hey hooper1961,

I am all in on your crusade for raising speed limits. I think Jacobsen Rd. should have three speed limits: 35 MPH for women in their Ford Explorers, 25 MPH for men in their Ford Explorers, and 50 MPH for anyone riding a bicycle.

Can you get behind this?

I think that is your calling. Speed limits. You are somewhat lost on other topics.

Thanks, and, of course, god bless.

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[JoB]

hoop

are you helping teens to get pregnant?

shame on you.

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[hooper1961]

JoB no i am not.

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[JoB]

hoop..

neither am i.

So.. who is enabling teens to get pregnant?

and don’t tell me it’s the fault of the social safety net

the social safety net has never impregnated a single teen

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