Rant: Smart dogs, stupid owners

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Guidosmom –

Wow, I. wolfhounds are beautiful gentle giants. Levi’s not quite that big – he’s 100 lbs.

And, you are so right! I need to get a more seasonal shot of him in his snowshoeing jacket and snow booties. I tried a raincoat – he doesn’t like the rain, so the rainjacket was a very negative association and he just wouldn’t go along with it. Snow, however, is a different story. He’s a snow bunny.

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[thee]

ok, i just loaded a pic of one of my dogs. she’s laffing at this thread!

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[JimmyG]

Pray tell Job, how does my “dog walker” tale disqualify me from commenting on your tale of woe in the park? I’d be interested in hearing the rationale behind that because just as you say I’ve no way to assess your level of dog expertise, you have no way to assess mine.

Your own words in your OP were “I managed to barely control my dogs at the end of their 16 foot leashes”. That right there should cause you a bit of self-reflection and hopefully some changes in behavior.

Again, the woman you had to deal with was a tool, yet almost the majority of your post at #19 consists of the reasons why you don’t need to take responsibility for any part of the encounter.

As to armchair QBing, that’s what 95% of the posters on this thread have done, and what happens sometimes when posting on a public forum.

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[littlebrowndog]

I am at an intensive training stage now with my 7 month old puppy. Because he will be an agility dog he accompanies me to very, very crowded and high intensity agility trials. He began doing this at age 4 months, when I first got him. He would have begun doing it at 12 weeks if I would have had him at that age. His behavior has been excellent at every trial except for some barking in his crate the first couple of times. He is often in spaces so crowded that he is brushing up against other dogs while barking is going on all around him.

I am also working hard with him at the command “with me” which is heel except for on both sides. He is a very high energy dog, great performance prospect but a challenge to train. Adolescence is adding to it. I walk with him at Alki on a somewhat loose 6 foot leash telling him “with me” and expecting him to walk at my hip while maintaining eye contact with me. Great theory, and we are making good progress. However, despite his perfect behavior in the wild setting of agility trials when I get him on the sidewalk at Alki he has a new tendency to break his “with me” and lunge at the end of his leash and bark wildly at oncoming dogs. He didn’t do it his first few months of training. It’s very clearly not playful, it is communicating that he does not have friendly intentions towards the other dog. Now that he has recently developed this behavior, when a dog is approaching I immediately shorten my grip on the leash and insist that his total focus is on me, not where he is walking. If that doesn’t do the trick then he gets put into a sit-stay with eye contact with me. Now I know that is simple good dog training and many of you do that. I have seen it lots of times. My point is that when he is acting like this the oncoming dog walker almost always continues walking straight at us with little distance between their dog and mine. Not wise—but absolutely within their right to do so. His behavior is my total responsibility. I never use flexis, but if I did I would instantly reel my dog in when another dog approached. My “dog reactive” dog is fully mine to control even if they are walking briskly at me (could be seen by my dog as aggressive). It is my belief that my reactive dog is totally my responsibility even if some other person is doing something that I consider foolish, like not giving us a wider berth if they see him acting like that and even trying to allow their dog to greet him while I am telling them that he is not friendly at that moment (although when he is behaving well he greets others just fine). I have found that in places with a lot more space in between dogs (e.g. a park) there are some dogs that become reactive towards others. Certainly he is showing that even though he is perfect at agility trials. So I think that those of us with known reactive dogs even in parks with large amounts of space need to be prepared to use the same special training techniques that we would use in close quarters. I am very unhappy about loose dogs in parks but because they are a reality I don’t go to those parks. I ought to be able to but I don’t. So I no longer sweat it. I should add that I am an experienced dog trainer and trained my service dog on my own; he did not have a ‘professional service dog trainer.’

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[gunnerddog]

So…it seems to me the woman walking her dog had her dog under better control than JoB.

While she was walking her dog offleash, JoB was basically doing the same thing too by having her dogs at such a length that made it difficult/impossible to immediately control them.

Your justification of having them at twice the legal limit of leash is that you choose times when the park isn’t heavily used and use spaces not heavily traveled. Well, do you think the other woman might use the same justification for walking her dog offleash?

Since you always take your dogs a substantial ways off the path, regardless of the terrain when another dog, leashed or not, approaches, why couldn’t you do that in this instance? Is it because your dogs were not under your control at such long leash lengths?

What was so important about that bag of poo? Drop the bag, reel in your dogs, move off the path (which is your method of avoiding conflict), and pick the bag up when the “stupid” “agressive” woman with her dog who was not out of control passed, then go retreive your poo bag.

Having said that, I don’t disagree with your frustration about the other woman’s behavior. I just think you were upset about what happened. You chose to vent here and didn’t get the reaction from fellow WSBers you were expecting. No need to get so defensive.

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[JoB]

i couldn’t move my dogs out of her way this time because she was rapidly and aggressively moving towards me and my dogs and did not give me any opportunity to do so…

I am fairly certain that had my dogs been dog friendly, they still would have reacted protectively to her behavior.

i got my dogs under control and moved out of the way quickly for her partner and his dog who moved past me at a normal speed.. following in his wake.

I accept that i have difficult dogs… and that the burden of responsibility is mine…The responsibility of these two dogs literally affects every part of my life.

However.. i am weary of assuming the responsibility for people who are too arrogant or stupid or malicious to behave responsibly…

And i am about out of patience with those who believe that every dog should behave in a particular manner and that it is their right to break the rules or to approach your dog when you ask them not to.

If we put people down as rapidly for behavioral problems caused by bad parenting and abuse as we do dogs, there would be a deafening silence on this blog.

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[PDieter]

I didn’t anticipate two pages…I’m out of bags ;(

[/kickingleavesonthepoo]

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[gunnerddog]

“And i am out of patience with those who believe that every dog should behave in a particular manner and that it is their right to breatk the rules…”

Haven’t you admitted to the fact that you were breaking the rules by having your dogs on leashes that were twice the legal length?

Again JoB, not trying to pile on, but from everything you have posted, it sounds like the other woman had her dog under control.

Yours are not dog friendly and were not under your immediate control. Your dogs were over 30 feet away from each other when they were doing their business. How can you control two dogs that far from each other?

Let me restate that I don’t think this woman was particularly considerate, I don’t see that it was her responsibility to make sure your dogs wouldn’t attack hers.

Time after time I hear people on this blog complain about how people let their dogs run wild offleash. Well, just because a dog is on leash doesn’t mean it’s under control.

Yes, I wish more dog owners were considerate and realized their responsibility doesn’t end at the end of their leash. Reading the surrounding environment, other people, traffic, other dogs, etc. is important when walking your dogs.

However, if I’m walking my dog on leash, which this woman had done by the time she got to you, why is the onus on her to make sure your dogs are well behaved?

My dog occasionally gets surly in the presence of unaltered male dogs. Guess what, I make sure I reel him in and get him out of the situation either by making him sit off to the side while the other dog passes or redirecting him away.

You were not able to do that because your dogs were not under your immediate control. Does that make you a bad owner? Of course not. But I hope this serves as a reminder to all dog owners reading this that control of your dog is your responsibility.

Seeing other people behave “irresponsibly” may be a signal that you need to remove your dogs from that situation immediately. If that means leaving the poo until the other dog passes, then do it. But that can only be done if your dogs are under your control.

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[gunnerddog]

PDieter, happy to let this thread die. More than happy.

(picking up Gunner’s poo and heading home)

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[JoB]

jimmyG..

i apologize for being catty…

A dog walker who avoids confrontations with other animals while out walking by avoiding entire areas of town is delusional at best.

From the clothing worn by the woman in the park yesterday, i can assure you that she lives in one of the “better” areas of town…

I suspect she would be better behaved on a well lit public street near her home than she was in the privacy of a nearly vacant park… but that wouldn’t protect a dog walker on a dark and deserted street…

I have had occasion to learn a lot about dog aggressive behavior since adopting these two.

I only have one dog aggressive dog.. but the other will back her if he feels she is in any way threatened… and they are both protective of me.

I have been working with them (training) daily for over two years now and have made incredible progress… but it is a very long road.

Shiba rescue organizations typically don’t adopt out Shibas with aggression issues.. they are either kept by the rescue homes or euthanized.

In fact, the rescue organization i got my dog aggressive shiba from lied about her behavior. i didn’t catch it because she was the alpha dog in that pack and the little abused shiba i brought to meet her was so tickled to have dog company that he would have done anything to make her like him. it was only when i took her for a walk on my own that i realized she had a problem.

instead of taking her back or euthanizing her, i kept her and have worked with her… but she will never be anything but dog aggressive on and off leash if given the opportunity.

She has learned to control that aggression better and she will get better at it with time, but her first instinct will always be to attack first, establish dominance and make friends later.

however… if you didn’t have a dog.. you’d really enjoy meeting her.

you wouldn’t enjoy meeting my little boy so much.. he was badly abused by people in his last home… and we nearly euthanized him last year before finding a dog training organization called Pack Works who are incredible with dogs with serious behavioral problems.

unfortunately, there are a lot of Shibas euthanized because people buy these cute little dogs who are incredibly independent and as close to feral as a domesticated animal gets… and don’t spend the time and effort necessary to train them.

and then of course, there are those like my boy’s former owner who think it is cute to have this ferocious little dog until they abuse the animal and it defends itself.

I thought i knew a lot about dogs with abuse issues until i adopted these two… who are sweet dogs…

I successfully rehabilitated abused akitas and german shepherds and have rehabilitated rescued fighting dogs.. including pit bulls for others…

any of those problem dogs could have safely walked off leash next to me in any circumstance.. and i know this because they did.

I was one of those owners who didn’t see what the problem was having my dogs off leash as long as they were well behaved and in voice control….

I now have a far better understanding of why the leash laws… and basic courtesy are so important as more people buy dogs and depend upon training videos to train their dogs.. sure that they have all the answers.

But as much as i have learned about dogs with aggression issues from these two, i have learned more about humans with aggression issues who act out on their own or through their own dogs.

And i have learned a lot about arrogance… especially the arrogance of those who think they know more about your animal than you do and ignore all requests to stay away.. with or without their leashed or unleashed animals.

For all i know the woman in the park yesterday saw the situation with my dogs as a perfect training opportunity for hers…

she nearly got both her dog and herself bit for her arrogance…

The only thing that kept the confrontation provoked by her from becoming a serious incident was my training and experience.

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[JoB]

gunnerdog…

yes the woman had her dog under control.. though thankfully not as well as she would have liked or her dog would have been bitten.

As i stated, her dog had more sense than she did.

However, calling her behavior inconsiderate is certainly minimizing the aggressive way in which she proceeded to put herself and her dog as close to my dogs as she could.

As for walking my dogs on retractable leashes…

yup i do break the law occassionally by letting my dogs run to the end of their leash and sniff an open area to their heart’s content.

I let them run wild in circles around me chasing one another with play bows and attacks and sudden changes in direction… all while keeping my hands firmly on both their leashes and staying aware of any movement in any direction around me so they can play safely.

We had just finished doing that and were taking the resulting potty break when they appeared.

No, i couldn’t compensate for her aggressive behavior quickly enough to pull my dogs in next to me in a sit/stay….

But i can see why it is so much easier to blame a woman with two dogs on retractable leashes letting them have a good time in an open field than it is to criticize a woman for being aggressive… since she was perfectly “in control of her dog”

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[thee]

“If we put people down as rapidly for behavioral problems caused by bad parenting and abuse as we do dogs, there would be a deafening silence on this blog.”

Bravo, JoB! Even considering yr admirable key-pounding skills, this one takes the cake! You’ve graced us with line certain to win some sort of award at this year’s WSB year-end banquet!

Keep up the impressive work you’re doing!

–thee

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[RainyDay1235]

And yet none of that matters. I can assure you if patrollers were in the area (which they are more often now) and saw the confrontation, the UNLEASHED dog’s owner would have gotten the ticket, not JoB. No one would be pulling out a ruler. Be serious.

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[What The]

I can’t take my dog Edtard (Avatar) out to parks anymore…he can’t take the humiliation and only responds to the name “Kitty”….

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[JoB]

i didn’t mean to leave this conversation in the “there.. take that” mode…

i soaked my head which is shorthand for soaking in a tub and spending some time with my own thoughts… and while rambling something you might find interesting bubbled up…

i wonder why it is we spend so much time talking about control.. even when it comes to training our children and pets?

i am as guilty as any.. expecting parents to “control their children” in public..

when what i really mean is that we should all take responsibility to do the best we can in the circumstances that present themselves…

i was very frustrated by the circumstances that presented themselves yesterday… and still am.

but the reason i am upset is because no matter how well i do my job as pack leader of my dogs.. no matter how well i train them or how well i am “in control” of them… i can never perfectly control the circumstances.. even when i have them securely fenced in their own yard or contained in my home.

yes, i took a risk allowing them to frolic at the end of their flexi leashes.. but it was a calculated risk… i was aware of my surroundings and aware of where my dogs were and what they were doing.. and they were leashed so i had some control…

i did miscalculate the degree of threat caused by one woman bent on having her way… even then, i managed damage control well enough for all of us to escape injury.

i was blindsided yesterday and this morning by those who chose to focus on the fact that my dogs had issues and were on flexileashes….

rather than on the fact that the woman was walking aggressively towards me and my dogs… a situation that would have provoked difficulties in any protective dog.. let alone those with dog aggression issues…

so i got a little testy… but given some time and distance to think about this… it isn’t all about me after all… i am left with some philosophical questions…

why is it when someone is in difficulty… as i clearly was when i was surprised by her actions..

we are so much more likely to feel that the person created their circumstances and deserves whatever happens to them… and jump to a lot of conclusions to justify doing so?

i suspect it comes down to this concept of control that keeps coming up… being in control..not losing control.. controlling the situation…

we seem somehow to believe that if we are in control… we can prevent the unexpected.

but more than that.. i think this idea of control speaks to the core of what can become dangerous behavior…

“i am in control therefore i have a right to do what i want as long as i am stronger and more capable and if they are not in control it is their fault if anything happens”

that concept… phrased differently… is certainly at the core of my dog’s aggressive behavior towards other dogs.

it’s a dog eat dog world out there…

except it isn’t.. as illustrated by the other dog’s behavior.

anyone who trains a dog knows better.. at least on some level.

Even at it’s best, training a dog has less to do with you being in control of the dog than the animal’s willingness to follow your lead as it’s pack leader.. and your ability to anticipate and short circuit situations before perceived threats and/or prey mediated impulse behavior kicks in and creates a situation where correction is the only option.

i think this idea of control is vastly overrated… but i am still really big on responsibility…

i think we should all do our best to to not only avoid situations that could endanger ourselves or others but to do everything we can to mitigate those situations once they occur…

like dogs mostly do when left to their own devices.

in other words.. i think we do a lot better when we worry less about being in control and being right…

and concentrate more on doing the best we can to make things turn out right…

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[PDieter]

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[JanS]

PDieter..easy to blame JoB, since you were not there to see what actually happened. I wasn’t either, but I have met her dogs, and I understand why she did what she did. She is an extremely responsible dog owner.

Thee and What the…if you don’t agree with what’s being discussed in a thread, then don’t read it, if you can’t respond constructively. There is no point in making fun of anyone on here, whether it’s done in fun, or not so fun, but sarcastically. It reflects badly on you, and makes one think that you might not ever to be taken seriously on here. Give it a rest, for goodness sake. You’ve both contributed positively on this forum in the past. What you’re doing here is uncalled for, in my book.

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[shed22]

PDieter’s post 41 says it all.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I think that by posting something on a public forum you are openign it up for debate, discussion, and written exchange. you may not like what you hear but over all it probably will make you a better person b/c it will open you up to different view points. (if you have an open mind and all….)

I havent met JoB’s dogs. But I do know that I have a somewhat aggresive dog that I hae on a retractable leash. B/c of my dogs behavior, I have learned, to act responsible and always retract his leash and lock it in place. This is b/c I understand that being on public property it is never another dogs owners responsibilty to watch out for my dog. In my book if the other dog owner had enough time to call their dog, leash their dog, and begin to awlk *aggressively* towards JoB then JoB should have had plenty of time to stop what she was doing and retract her dogs leashes. I think that this was how a lot of people read the post.

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[JanS]

I believe that JoB stated that she was in the process of retracting said leashes when the woman came upon them, that it all happened in a matter of seconds? Did I misunderstand that?

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[beachdrivegirl]

Well i guess my leashes retract a bit faster because I know that my leash would retract in the amount of time it took another dog owner to call their dog, leash their dog, and begin to walk towards me but then again thats just my personal experience.

And reading back to JoB’s original post she only continually mentioned picking up their poo. Not retracting their leashes.

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[JanS]

I am not a dog owner, never have been. But…if I was someone walking a dog in a park, and I was coming upon a person with two dogs, and they warned me that their dogs were not “dog friendly”, would I really continue to “advance aggressively” toward said dogs? I don’t think so. Perhaps JoB didn’t move fast enough for you, perhaps she didn’t expect the people with unleashed dogs to ultimately aggressively walk towards her…none of us was there, so we don’t really know the entire situation. But , as someone who owned a dog, and presumably cares and loves my dog, I would most definitely steer clear of someone who warned me about unfriendly dogs…guess it’s just a matter of different thinking. Maybe we just need to divide the blame and consider it done, huh. And maybe, just maybe, we all need to stop making excuses for those who feel it’s just fine to have your dog unleashed in a park, until someone calls you on it, huh…..

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[roundthesound]

Thanks beachdrivegirl, I was thinking the same thing! How does one walk aggressively?

JoB, you said; “i think we should all do our best to to not only avoid situations that could endanger ourselves or others but to do everything we can to mitigate those situations once they occur…”. Next time you are thinking about bringing your aggressive dogs to a public park please reread this thread and avoid situations where you are endangering others and their dogs. You should practice your leash retracting skills too.

Maybe these people didn’t speak English well enough to understand the warning. Maybe they assumed that people who can’t control their dogs don’t bring them to public parks.

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[alki_2008]

I’ll ditto #46 and #48.

The whole “aggressively” thing is so subjective anyway.

Here’s a thought: maybe the woman wanted your dogs to attack her/her dog so that she could sue you and get more money to support the expenses of living “in one of the “better” areas of town…”. :-p

By the way – I don’t think there’s any need to make assumptions about the woman because of the way she’s dressed. There was a whole thread about classism/elitism/etc…and making judgments about someone being ‘rich’ is just as misguided as making judgments about someone that’s ‘less fortunate’. My 2 cents.

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[GenHillOne]

FWIW, I interpreted the description of aggressive walking as the woman’s attempt at a pissing match. I can visualize a “harrumph…no one’s going to tell ME where I can or cannot walk” – followed by a beeline toward Jo. Doesn’t sound like her dog wanted to participate in her bravado.

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