War on Science

[JoB]

VBD.

Christianity is the framework through which i filter my faith because it is the one i learned as a child

and after exploring all other possibilities including that of the agnostics and atheists, it is what still resonates with me.

which is not to say that i don’t find myself reading and rereading passages from the wide variety of religious texts that line my reading shelf…

If Christians should agree with literal Biblical teachings to be a Christian… Which teachings on Christianity would you have Christians adhere to to qualify as real Christians?

Would you have us adhere to the edited and re-edited and re-edited again book that we call the Bible… and if so, which version?

Should we adhere to the literal translation from the original greek or would the new modernized version be more accurate or one of the many version in between?

Is the Catholic version of the Bible more accurate than the Protestant version?

And if you are an old Testament Christian, shouldn’t you more accurately describe your religion as Judiasm?

Do we include the Christian writings that have been discovered but rejected by “the church” as being too radical to include in Christian writings..

and if so which church should we use as the final infallible reference to all things Christian?

When blind obedience to any one interpretation of the tenets of a religion becomes the core precept of that religion i believe you have crossed the line into extremism and cult status.

Are the extremists and cult participants true Christians because they are willing to suspend all doubt and blindly follow the teachings of their particular leader?

I don’t think that is true any more than i think that you have to blindly follow the current political dictates of our elected leaders to be a citizen.

The thing about religion that non-religious people (and to be honest too many religious people) don’t seem to understand is that even when you worship with others, faith is a very personal process.

I am a Christian because that is the framework around which my faith is built.

i can’t speak for anyone else’s.. nor would i want to.

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[VBD]

I agree with you JoB, that faith is a personal thing, but religion is most often manifested in a form of group think. I think we’ve had this discourse before, that religion is different from faith (or spiritualism).

If you believe in a supernatural god, but don’t take notice, or even care, what priests, bishops, cardinals, or the pope has to say, you would have a hard time calling yourself Catholic.

Likewise, you would have a hard time calling yourself ANY type of Christian if you did not believe Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. Plus, there’s a whole framework of what a sin is, and what will happen to you if you don’t comply with the teachings etc.

It seems that in order to be a affiliated with a particular religion (especially a christian one), there are quite a few things a person needs to accept.

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[waynster]

I will say this it may it will ruffle some that’s ok When you look at all the religions and what they all worship its basics are the same they all reference a book written by man over the years all rewritten. To me no one religion can prove who’s is right who’s is wrong they have fought over their beliefs and have killed over them. I call it brain washing in more simple terms. I to was raised a christian do I believe in any one religion no.. why no one can prove their book right as I cant prove them wrong. You see whether your Christian, Jewish, Muslim or what ever your all worshiping the same a God in a book written by man…..evolution is it more right then wrong who knows it does make more senses…

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2013/08/02#.UshT87Smbk0

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[JanS]

joining science and religion…

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vr3nn

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[JoB]

VBD..

if i were Catholic i would have no problem ignoring some of what priests, bishops, cardinals, and the pope had to say…

any woman who practices any form of family planning has been doing so for quite some time.

I am Christian and i have no problem ignoring those within my religion who would parrot the Catholics on that same issue.

You don’t have to buy everything in the “group think” tank to agree that the tank is filled with water and you are all swimming in it.

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[VBD]

Thanks for the explanation. I get what you’re saying, JoB.

But I still don’t understand the value of the “tank” in the first place. If you aren’t 100% in agreement, why not just get out of the tank and swim free? Is it the social aspect, and the community, more than the philosophical platform?

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[JoB]

VBD..

are you asking why i call myself a Christian in spite of the fact that i choose not to affiliate with or attend a church?

Because that is the water I am comfortable swimming in… it really is that simple.

why do i call myself a democrat when i am pretty much perpetually pissed off at what i see the democratic party doing these days?

Because that is the political water i am comfortable swimming in… democrat is the political language i speak and the basis of the political framework from which i see the world… and i am not likely to find other swimmers like me in any other pool.

besides.. it’s a pretty big tank with plenty of room for mavericks like me

my religious choice is really not so very different.

it’s a really big tank and there is plenty of room for free thinking mavericks like me

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[JanS]

and that brings us to the difference between being a Christian, and adhering to a specific religion…different species entirely..

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[VBD]

Jan, I find that perspective quite interesting. I have always considered Christianity the “religion”, all the variants the “denominations”.

The defining component of Christianity is a belief in the teachings of the Bible, especially the New Testament. All the denominations should then recognize some, or all, of the Bible. If not, the religion is probably not Christianity.

Would you also state there is a difference between being a Jew and adhering to a specific religion? Or Hindu? Or Muslim?

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[JanS]

VBD…it’s just my opinion. When it comes to being a Jew, is that a religion or is it more than that? Jewish people are Jewish people whether they practice their religion or not…my ex-brother-in-law, named Bernstein, called himself a “bad Jew”…he didn’t practice any type of “religion”, but he was still Jewish.

For me this all comes around to personal belief. And my beliefs are singular/personal to me. And I would not expect the next person to adhere to what I believe, or don’t believe. That’s one of the reasons I haven’t jumped into this thread very much.

Back into my hole now :) carry on …

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[metrognome]

as we seem to have strayed from the original thread, I will join the sinners and jump in again.

It seems to me that it is entirely possible to be a ‘Christian’ without subscribing to any particular denomination or sect. All one has to do is believe in the basic philosophy attributed to the historical figure known as Jesus Christ. This philosophy, the tenets of which are not unique to Christianity, is contained in the writings widely referred to as the New Testament. The pieces of this ‘document’ were passed down by word of mouth before being written down in Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Aramaic by numerous scribes. To be a Christian, one does not need to accept that these words are the literal words of god, esp. when read in English without the proper understanding of the historical context of the allegories.

Biblical scholars place numerous conditions on what is called the Bible, esp. the Old Testament:

1) parts are clearly missing and some accepted parts clearly don’t belong;

2) shockingly, the Bible was not written in English; in fact, much of it was not written down for ages. Passing stories accurately by word of mouth is pretty much impossible. Translating from ancient languages is fraught with difficult contextual decisions in every sentence. Try reading the historical figure known as Shakespeare’s original manuscripts and see how much you understand. Heck, we can’t even agree on who wrote which ‘Shakespearean’ play. Ask any ten witnesses to a crime what they saw and you’ll get fifteen answers that change day by day.

3) ‘Organized religion’ has manipulated the Bible and its believers over the years to increase their personal and institutional power and financial position over the centuries. Classic example is Christmas, which was ginned up to pre-empt pagans from celebrating Saturnalia and Solstice.

Speaking of differences in beliefs, I find it odd that Catholics are referred to as Christians these days. Back in nineteen and ought six when I was being schooled by nuns, we were taught that Christians looked down on Catholics because we did not accept JC as our personal lord and savior. In those days, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit held equal sway. Seems to me that the current co-mingling of Christianity and Catholicism is a temporary truce that came about for political reasons.

Bless me father for I have sinned …

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[JoB]

VDB..

There is a whole lot of distance between recognizing the Bible and adhering to some code derived from biblical texts..

even the most ardent literalists have to pick and choose which texts to adhere strictly to and which are well… an anachronism based upon the time period in which they were written.

a sect may .. and to be honest often does… have rules..

but that doesn’t mean that they apply unilaterally to Christianity.

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[JoB]

metrognome..

LOL.. we have all sinned ;->

i too was taught that Catholics were not Christians…

but i was also taught that the people in the church kitty-korner weren’t really Christians either.

i attended Mom’s church (Pentecostal) and step-dad’s (Methodist) alternating Sundays..

did that double my chances or eliminate me from ever reaching heaven? Who knows?

nineteen ought six.. really :)))

you make me giggle

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[VBD]

I did not say a person must join a denomination to be religious or a Christian. I claimed “Christianity is a belief in the teachings of the Bible, especially the New Testament”. Thus, even if you care a completely independent Christian, you are still following a religion. Christianity IS the religion. A group’s interpretation of the Bible, and the rituals they choose to follow is what makes a Denomination.

As a former Catholic, I can tell you we all considered ourselves Christians.

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[JoB]

VBD..

as my Pentecostal brethren would ask..

how could you be a Christian if you didn’t have a deep personal relationship with Jesus Christ the Savior ?

because as they understand Catholicism, you didn’t

it’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it.

I belong to no denomination, yet I have been very clear in declaring my religion.. Christianity

There is a reason for that. The religious text that resonates with me is the Bible..

Is that because it is full of the stories i heard as a child?

Is it because it contains some essential truth that is missing elsewhere?

I don’t know the answers to those questions but i will likely spend the rest of my life asking them…

knowing full well that the answers are not likely to change the essential nature of my faith.

and that is the essence of faith.. a belief system so clearly essential that you can’t even argue yourself out of it .. i know.. i tried ;->

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[VBD]

JoB, it appears we are in agreement.

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[JoB]

interesting work..

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/05/259886077/searching-for-science-behind-reincarnation

is there more to life than life ?

maybe there is more to this mystery stuff than we think.

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[miws]

Interesting read, JoB.

In recent years, I’ve become more and more fascinated with the possibility of reincarnation.

I’ll try to come back later when I have more time to gather and compose my thoughts on this, and relate some of my own perspective, that has piqued my increased interest in recent years.

Mike

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[wakeflood]

I’m in the same boat, Mike. Need to review this stuff with more time but in the first couple of paragraphs something struck me right off.

Talking about a “young” two year old describing things and using language I’m not sure I’ve ever witnessed from a four year old, much less two? Describing a fiery plane crash and Iwo Jima, etc.??

Not saying I don’t believe it but it gives me pause. Was there leading questioning going on? (Brings to mind the hypnosis “thought implanting” that happened during questioning of suspected child molestation victims back in the 80’s, etc.)

Will continue to review this…

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[miws]

Yeah, wake, in my case, I don’t recall specific events, but will often have a strong sense of familiarity with a place, real, or depicted say in a movie; whether the movie be from a particular era, or was made many years or decades later depicting a particular era.

Sometimes it may be walking walking past an old building in Pioneer Square, and there will be a familiarity that goes beyond my experiences in the area in “this lifetime”, or of stories and such I’ve heard over time.

Sometimes it’s pictures, or even descriptive text, of, for example the various “West Seattle Bridges” in history, depicted in the local 1987 book Westside Story.

Mike

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

leading questioning would imply the questioner knowing the previous identity ahead of time…

not the other way around.

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[wakeflood]

I get that, JoB. I was merely wondering what kind of questions were asked and under what clinical or non-clinical conditions that yielded exactly what kind of detailed responses.

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[JoB]

wake..

i don’t know the answer to your question

but 2500 kids is a substantial number

hard to believe they were all coached

from Wiki Jim B Tucker (reincarnation)

“Tucker reports that in about 70% of the cases of children claiming to remember past lives, the deceased died from an unnatural cause, suggesting that traumatic death may be linked to the hypothesized survival of personality. He further indicates that the time between death and apparent rebirth is, on average, 16 months, and that unusual birthmarks might match fatal wounds suffered by the deceased.[22]

Tucker has developed the Strength Of Case Scale (SOCS), which evaluates what Tucker sees as four aspects of potential cases of reincarnation;[23][24] “(1) whether it involves birthmarks/defects that correspond to the supposed previous life; (2) the strength of the statements about the previous life; (3) the relevant behaviours as they relate to the previous life; and (4) an evaluation of the possibility of a connection between the child reporting a previous life and the supposed previous life”.[25]”

he has published in some pretty prestigious journals…

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[wakeflood]

I wonder if his results are reproducible by other researchers? Something that interesting will likely have gathered some attention amongst the community.

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[JoB]

wake..

it appears there have been a few very credible researchers in this field

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[Author]

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