Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Just Say No To Red Light Cameras
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March 13, 2009 at 11:08 pm #590075
BobLoblawParticipantRed-light cameras raise some red flags
Some cities, vendors are profiting but unclear if safety is improving
March 13, 2009 at 11:32 pm #660373
flowerpetalMemberSeems to me that the red light cameras are still a good thing. A reduction of t-bone crashes by 28% and only an 8% increase in rear-end collisions. It looks to like municipalities with red light camera contracts are correcting the way these businesses are paid.
I’m curious what others understand from this article.
Thanks BobLoblaw
March 13, 2009 at 11:56 pm #660374
MousePotatoMemberThat is rather concerning that so much of the revenue goes to the vendors instead of the cities. Does anyone know what arrangement Seattle has for its cameras? Seems like there would be too much motivation for these companies to ‘sell’ these cameras and push cities to install more just for the companies to make more money. My other concern for the camera tickets is will this lead to automatic speed ticket cameras? If those start popping up I might just become the vigilante that cuts them down in the middle of the night. I don’t really have a problem with the idea of red light cameras (if it stops there) but I completely disagree with the money going elsewhere. That’s a whole lot of pot hole fixin’ money that we could certainly use….
March 14, 2009 at 12:29 am #660375
AnonymousInactiveMousePotato – When I was recently in Phoenix, I noticed that all the freeways have the speed cameras now.
I think the logic behind them is good, as it wll cut down on speeders, but the complaint I have is the way people drive since they have installed the cameras.
So, if they ever do come here, watch for people slamming on their brakes periodically as you are driving on the highway!
March 14, 2009 at 12:49 am #660376
JulieMemberNR, I’m curious about this: do you mean drivers slam on their brakes as they approach speed cameras, rather than adjusting their overall speed, or that they slam on their brakes periodically as they remember to keep their speed down (between cameras, I guess)? I wonder if drivers will learn to adjust to this eventually, driving more smoothly at a lower speed, or if they will continue to correct their speed intermittently. I also wonder if, when gas prices go back up, drivers will learn more quickly to control speed in a more fuel-efficient manner?
I also wonder if the increase in rear-end accidents mentioned in the article is something that will decline as drivers learn not to expect the car in front to keep going through a light that’s just turned red (I guess I’m making an assumption about the cause of these rear-end accidents; perhaps I’m incorrect).
It will be interesting to see in what ways drivers’ behaviors adapt over time, and how long will it take, and what behaviors persist despite the change in conditions.
March 14, 2009 at 12:59 am #660377
AnonymousInactiveJulie – When you are approaching a camera, they slam on their brakes. After they pass the camera, they speed up exceptionally.
No indication that drivers are trying to slow down overall – more just trying to avoid a ticket.
March 14, 2009 at 2:02 am #660378
JoBParticipantArizona is changing the way they do the cameras.. some will be on temporary tripods so that you don’t know where they will be.
i have to say that i drove phoenix’s freeways last month and was pleasantly surprised by the number of people driving the speed limit… something i hadn’t come to expect in Phoenix metro…
and even more surprised by the number of family and friends there who warned me not to speed.. i was told they they were ticketing people going 5 miles over the speed limit…
imagine that…
it sure improved driving conditions there.
March 14, 2009 at 6:16 am #660379
AnonymousInactivehmmm…not entirely accurate.
When the “tripod” is in use, there are several warnings before you actually come to it.
And, even though friends and family will tell you to drive the speed limit (always a good idea), most people don’t.
You get this flow of traffic that speeds (ridiculously) and then slams on their brakes when they come up to a camera (or tripod camera). Then, of course, speed back up.
Just beware if they bring speed cameras to Seattle. It does not deter speeders, but, IMO, makes driving more dangerous with the slamming of brakes. People will slam on their brakes down to 40 MPH on the freeway when they come up to those cameras.
Hopefully, though, we won’t have to worry about that here!
March 14, 2009 at 6:19 am #660380
Moose JawMemberI’d support speed cameras but only if the technology also captured people driving in the left lane under the speed limit.
Wish they could also figure out a way to capture idiots texting while driving.
March 14, 2009 at 6:37 am #660381
AnonymousInactiveMoose Jaw- I support tickets for slow left lane drivers too!!!!
(Serious pet peeve of mine)
March 14, 2009 at 5:02 pm #660382
DunnoParticipantLets face it. 35thsw has been out of control with
speeders in years gone by. Even me? Yeah I’m not always looking down at my mph. The new red light cameras and speed posters have helped a lot.
I’ve noticed a calming effect on 35th the past month. Plus the no turn in rush hour at 35th and
Avalon. BTW lost a friend at 35th and Thistle.
My next concern is Fauntleroy going to a two lane
road. 60% increase expected in the coming years
from ferry traffic on that road. More transit and
many more apts coming on line? Viaduct coming down. Glad I work weekends.
March 14, 2009 at 5:24 pm #660383
JoBParticipanti spent a fair amount of time on Arizona’s freeways for 10 days last month and didn’t see any evidence of slamming on the brakes…
what i saw was drivers abiding by the speed limit… even on the interstate to flagstaff which has been notorious for speeders…
but phoenix has always been a tough town to drive in…
you have the retirees..some well into their 90s driving very carefully.. and slowly.. mostly on city streets… and everyone else driving aggressively.. speeding around them making them even slower…
i now know just how insensitive it was.. but we used to call it prune dodge ball…
i suspect i would now be one of the prunes now since i generally drive the speed limit.. and no-one did :)
it was refreshing to drive in smoothly moving traffic…
March 14, 2009 at 5:38 pm #660384
AnonymousInactiveWell, there you go…. guess I was wrong.
Disregard my earlier posts. :)
Dunno – Working weekends definitely has it’s advantages!
March 14, 2009 at 8:08 pm #660385
JoBParticipantNewResdient..
not everything is adversarial…
you comment on what you see based on your experience and expectations.
i do the same.
for me, the driving conditions in phoenix were a huge improvement over my past experiences and my family and friends told me that was due to the cameras…
i don’t know.. but it do know that i enjoyed driving there much more this time.
March 15, 2009 at 6:12 pm #660386
BobLoblawParticipantFor safety sake, I think the cameras have a chance to succeed. I agree that drivers should adjust. And a rear-ender is better than a T-bone most times. What peeves me is the $$ issue. If it’s true that the camera companies make most of the $$ off these, then I’m disappointed. As much as it angers me that cities use these as cash cows, it angers me more that they simply give up the funds to these companies.
March 15, 2009 at 6:31 pm #660387
JoBParticipantBobLoblaw…
i agree with you.. i think we should request info about what Seattle’s business relationship is with their company…
it’s like giving to the telemarketers who call for the fireman or policeman fund… most of it goes to the telemarketing company.. that’s why i donate directly.
I am all for improving safety but also think that especially in these times, that needs to go along with a great deal of fiscal responsibility.
March 15, 2009 at 6:57 pm #660388
JanSParticipantJoB…prune dodgeball – lol…I had never heard of that…and, being that I’m a tad older than you…well, hopefully, am not a prune yet…I think it takes that Phoenix sun to help with that process? lolol….
March 15, 2009 at 8:10 pm #660389
JoBParticipantJanS…
i used to think that the sun addled their brains… but i was much much younger then:)
i now realize that every trip out of the house is an event for them and they are taking time to enjoy the trip…
but it might be wise for the city to bow to reality and create senior lanes.. then everyone would be happy…
ok.. i am off too my own little adventure to the grocery and local produce mart:)
i hope those following me realize that i consider speed limits the top speed one should drive.. not the suggested minimum.. and that i brake for small children, seniors, pregnant ladies and all animals…
i try to avoid insects.. but one can only do so much:))))
i am trying to find it in my heart not to ruthlessly run down snakes… LOL… that may take a while…
March 16, 2009 at 1:53 am #660390
JulieMember(Aww, JoB–keep in mind the snakes eat rats! Leave them alone for me, please?)
I agree it would be interesting to know the financial arrangements for the red light cameras in Seattle. But I’m not sure I have a problem with it even if the company is making more than the city. Maybe I can find out more detail… I’ll try a bit, but don’t want to spend hours on it.
After all, it does sound like overall, they’re saving a bunch of money: notably insurance and medical, for which we all pay, even if indirectly. And we’re always fussing about not having enough police to do their jobs–and this would free up police. I doubt the city would plunk for the cameras if they weren’t cheaper than the police–but it’s worth checking.
I don’t see anything wrong with the red light camera companies making a great profit. If it saves society lives and money, and creates jobs–what’s not to like?
March 16, 2009 at 2:07 am #660391
JulieMemberOkay, so here’s what I turned up on a very quick search of the city website. Both news releases give monetary details about the pilot, so they may not apply to the current program. If I find out more, I’ll post–but here’s what I found:
City Council news releases:
8/17/2007 “The cost of 24 new cameras is approximately $1 million dollars. The revenue received from citations resulting from the six cameras at the four intersections currently under use is more than 2.5 times the cost of those cameras.”
1/2/2008 “The budget for the one-year project was $460,000. The city was billed approximately $3,500 per month for the services provided by each camera and this cost was covered by the $101 fines levied against each red light violation….The program issued 16,539 citations during the pilot, resulting in about $1.1 million in monetary penalties. “
March 16, 2009 at 2:41 am #660392
JoBParticipantthanks for the info Julie…
it looks like the light cameras more than paid for themselves.. it looks like they paid for a few officers too…
i think that is a win win.. unless of course you are speeding through a red light.. and then you might not think so..
maybe you could look at it this way..
being caught by the camera is a lot safer than being t-boned by someone you didn’t see coming.
as for those snakes.. i promise to let any rat eating snake live to eat again ;->
I don’t aim for rodents.. but i think about it a lot…
how many points for a rat???
March 17, 2009 at 5:48 am #660393
AnonymousInactiveAre these the cameras that only take pictures of your license plate? I liked the old ones better where they parked them on the side of the road and they got a really great picture of you right when you realized you were busted. How can they give you a ticket unless they have a head shot of you from inside your car and can match it with your license?
March 28, 2009 at 7:15 pm #660394
AnonymousInactiveEverything you need to know about SPEED cameras – if they are ever brought here to WA:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123811365190053401.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
“But critics point to research showing cameras can actually lead to more rear-end accidents because drivers often slam their brakes when they see signs warning them of cameras in the area.”
March 28, 2009 at 10:14 pm #660395
Garden_nymphMemberDriving south bound on 35th at night I have noticed a flash and am guessing it is the camera taking a picture. I am confused by this because the two or three times this has happened, the light was clearly green as I went through the light. Either the light I was approaching was green, or it turned green and I cautiously proceeded through the light, not “gunning it” and flying though the intersection THE SECOND it turned green. (I admit, I haven’t read all the links above so the following comment may be answered once I do…) Do the pictures taken include the color of the light as well as the license plate number?) If not, I feel some night surveillance in my future!
March 28, 2009 at 10:39 pm #660396
JulieMemberI am fascinated by the outrage from citizens who apparently feel these devices infringe on their right to break the law.
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