Home › Forums › Open Discussion › DP Report (04/30/11): Immaculate Deception (or) How the DNDA got religion
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April 30, 2011 at 9:09 pm #598783
DPMemberIf you’re a regular on Blog, you’ve heard me defend the rights of Christians to be Christians, even as I exercise my right to tease them.
But this time, they’ve really gone too far. I am referring to “The Way Church of God,” which seems to have set up shop, as it were, at the Youngstown Cultural Arts Center.
Witness the postcard below. Recently I discovered a handful of these festooning a bus shelter on Delridge:
I called the Delridge Neighborhood Development Association (DNDA) to see what was up with this. This smells fishy to me, I said. Is Youngstown a church now?
A nice fellow named Alberto returned my call. He explained that since the DNDA is a private organization, they can rent their space to whomever they please. At the same time, he assured me he’d take another look at The Way’s promotional material to see whether they might be causing some confusion in the public mind.
I replied that I myself was a member of the public. And although my mind was confused already, it’s only gotten worse since this card came out.
We shall see.
While I don’t exactly smell foul play on this, I do think it is somewhat sneaky of The Way to claim that Youngstown is now a church. On the other hand, if The Way itself is a church, and Youngstown is where they’re holding their Sunday services, then maybe it is a church . . .
[Sigh] It seems such a shame. There are already dozens of churchs in West Seattle, most of which sit empty except on Sunday. But there are relatively few cultural centers. If I were God (as I sometimes imagine myself to be), I think I might just tell these Way folks to look for lodgings elsewhere.
Unless they should happen to have a baby with them.
And a donkey.
April 30, 2011 at 9:43 pm #723537
anonymeParticipantFirst of all, the website states unequivocally that this is a CHURCH. Second, when I look at the DNDA website, it appears that they receive funding, or other unspecified forms of support/partnership, from several government entities. The DNDA mission statement makes no reference to religious services as part of the neighborhood restoration plan.
If I am now expected to fund religious organizations with my tax dollars, I’d like an explanation. Even if that is not the case, I agree that this is a completely inappropriate location.
Leaving printed propaganda at public bus shelters is littering. I could correct the grammar used on the leaflet as well, but ignorance goes so reliably hand in hand with proselytizing that it’s probably not worth mentioning.
DP, thanks for bringing this to our attention. You hadn’t posted in almost 24 hours. I was getting worried.
April 30, 2011 at 9:44 pm #723538
metrognomeParticipantif you peruse ‘the way’s’ website, it is even more confusing as they list their address as the cultural center (without mentioning the cultural center) and they use a different mailing address. Plus, their postcard uses the Youngstown logo, which implies their (and DNDA’s) support / approval.
DNDA may be a private nonprofit, but they do receive funding from a number of government entities and Wikipedia refers to them as a ” …city-sponsored nonprofit Delridge Neighborhoods Development Association …’
There is something wrong with the Youngstown website, so I couldn’t access the list of partners … but I am betting that government entities are included.
Not sure if government funding precludes renting space for church services (as opposed to renting space for a church-sponsored performance group, which is consistent with the cultural center’s mission.) I’m thinking the rental of space for church services would give some of the funding agencies a severe case of heartburn.
the way also needs to revise their motto to be grammatically correct as ‘different’ is an adjective and ‘differently’ is an adverb … so the correct phrase would be ‘to live differently’.
and, it is illegal to post unauthorized material in Metro facilities, incl. shelters.
April 30, 2011 at 9:46 pm #723539
anonymeParticipantMetrognome: beat you by 8 seconds. Great minds think alike.
April 30, 2011 at 9:51 pm #723540
metrognomeParticipantanonyme — I bow to the greater and quicker mind …
April 30, 2011 at 9:57 pm #723541
anonymeParticipantjust a quicker finger on ‘Send’, I think…
April 30, 2011 at 10:57 pm #723542
WSBKeymasterUm, guys, before you get too worked up.
Did you know there are at least two churches that meet in High Point Community Center? Which is a wholly owned government facility – Seattle Parks and Recreation. I know this because one of them advertises with us.
All Souls, which also is a WSB sponsor, meets at Madison Middle School, a wholly owned government facility (Seattle Public Schools).
The Calvary Chapel meets at the Senior Center of West Seattle, which has some public funding.
I believe that if you check with Seattle Parks and Recreation, Seattle Public Schools, and with DNDA in this case, you will likely find that they pay rental fees.
Doesn’t mean you have to like it. But this is pretty common. You can certainly contact your school board and city council members respectively if you have problems with city facilities renting to churches.
P.S. The Way was originally located in the building that is now home to Swedish Automotive’s HQ, behind where they built their new location. FWIW.
P.P.S. One more data point and then I swear I’ll go back to my hole. Youngstown DESPERATELY needs revenue. They have had to cut some things because the nonprofit/grant world just isn’t an open checkbook any more. We wrote about DNDA’s situation late last year. If there was enough culture to pay the bills, perhaps they wouldn’t be renting to a church? Or maybe they would, I don’t know. But just a reminder to support your local cultural center so that it really can remain one.
April 30, 2011 at 11:09 pm #723543
GenHillOneParticipantOf these, All Souls at Madison leaves an especially bad taste in my mouth. Public schools aren’t allowed to have Christmas trees, but they can house church services? I’m not debating for or against Christmas trees, just seems to defy logic.
May 1, 2011 at 2:00 am #723544
SpeakLoudMemberI applied for space for a small school way back in the beginning, before the renovation-they told me I wasn’t ‘community oriented’ enough-I find that kind of funny now-perhaps I’ll try again!
May 1, 2011 at 2:45 am #723545
DPMemberThanks for the comments, everyone.
WSB is right. There are lots of small churches out there that can’t afford their own buildings, so they rent, sometimes from community centers. (Some even double up with other denominations at existing church buildings.) I just thought it was kind of sneaky how The Way is marketing this, making it sound like it’s their building, when really they’re just renting it out.
I know times are hard, but Youngstown has always been high in terms of rates. I’ve comparison shopped them for a couple of events and they were much higher than other community centers. So it’s not necessarily that “culture” don’t pay. It could be that DNDA has simply priced itself out of the culture market. Chicken and egg, I guess.
Evangelical groups still have some bank, so now Youngstown is going in for that? Not a good idea, IMHO. If people in the ‘hood start seeing Youngstown as a church, it’s game over for the culture part. Sure, they’ve cured the disease. But they lost the patient.
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P.S. The Way is not just your average little hometown church, either. But that’s a topic for another post.
May 1, 2011 at 8:01 am #723546
albertoParticipantMy name is Alberto Mejia, director at Youngstown Cultural Arts Center. While I appreciate the concerns of the blog readers- I am also sensing a degree of alarm that may be blurring lines of what I see as distinct issues. Let me unpack what I think these may be:
1)Branding and messaging: I am reaching out to Pastor Sam of The Way and requesting that he create a new flyer that 1) does not include our logo and 2) clearly establishes that Youngstown is not the new location of the church, but a place where weekly services are held. I am certain The Way did not intend to take undue liberties with our logo etc., however as you might imagine with thousands of renters per year, there are occasional oversights in how groups use our logo etc.
2)Illegal posting/littering:
If The Way is posting in an unauthorized manner, I recommend reaching out and voicing your concerns directly to Pastor Sam, who along with congregation of The Way, I have found to be very courteous and open minded in interactions with our culturally and religiously diverse staff and other renter groups. People can also contact the appropriate authorities if they are not comfortable with contacting representatives of The Way.
3)Government/Federal funding:
DNDA is private non-profit organization and does not receive government or city funds that directly subsidize the rental model at YCAC. If anyone is open to making a phone call or visiting the DNDA office our executive director, Derek Bernie would be happy to explain the details of how very little (if any) of your tax dollars make it to DNDA, and how $0 make it to the accounts of the Way Church or any of YCAC renters.
4)Renting to faith based groups because of Financial challenge:
It is true that DNDA and Youngstown Cultural Arts Center are facing challenging financial times. Thankfully our overall rental bookings have not decreased in volume, and we do not have to rely on any individual or specific type of renter.Our financial condition has never nor will never afford special treatment to one renter over another. The Way were valued renters before our recent staff cutbacks, their support and yours will be equally important in the transition toward sustainability.
YCAC continues to research and implement ways to provide affordable creative rental space.I implore anyone considering YCAC as a venue to do an analysis of the services, facilities, and rental rates offered by Youngstown in comparison to peer venues.
I sincerely hope that the issues I have delineated above clarify and demonstrate the concern and respect for the issues raised, and to the diverse communities that DNDA and Youngstown Cultural Arts Center serves. I also welcome a visit from any of blog readers to Youngstown Cultural Arts Center.
In appreciation and community,
Alberto Mejia, MPA
Director
Youngstown Cultural Arts Center
Delridge Neighborhoods Development Association
May 1, 2011 at 1:25 pm #723547
KenParticipantWhile I appreciate that YCAC is an equal opportunity renter, I will vote with my feet and not visit any other renters of YCAC space while a theofascist, creationist, holyrollers of the premillennial rapture stripe are desecrating a space created with secular dollars from the WPA to the DNDA.
Anything with the words “church of God” in their title are inevitably going to be advocating the opposite of the common good, the literal reading of the bible, young earth creationism, anti science, anti democracy, unquestionable corporal patriarchy, all of which are anathema to the goals of the great experiment that is the USA.
They are protected by the same first amendment that they despise for allowing free discussion of ideas so each person can only do as they will in regard to this issue.
May 1, 2011 at 2:17 pm #723548
anonymeParticipantAlberto, thank you for your prompt attention to the questions raised by WS citizens. However, your very careful wording of several issues would seem to justify several concerns, not alleviate them.
First, your assertion that “Youngstown is not the new location of the church, but a place where weekly services are held”. It’s the same thing. The place where services are held IS the location of the church, regardless of what the mailing address is.
Second, you say that DNDA “does not receive government or city funds that directly subsidize the rental model”. It is the word “directly” that concerns me. You go on to suggest that “very little, if any tax dollars make it to DNDA”. Again, these statements seem like well-spun legalese that neither confirm nor absolutely deny that City funds support DNDA. Those ARE tax dollars BTW, as the City is not an independent private entity.
IMO, it makes no difference that The Way pays rental fees to DNDA and does not receive any type of funding in return. Unless DNDA is renting space to anyone with cash in hand (which you deny) there is clearly an approval process in place. As a result, other apparently legitimate businesses have been denied access, while this church was allowed.
As a member of the community ostensibly being “served” by DNDA, I would like to state that I find the establishment of a church at Youngstown both offensive and inappropriate. I was unaware until enlightened by the WSB editor that numerous churches have moved into schools and government buildings, and I intend to take action to reverse this trend.
DP, I ditto your P.S…NOT a little hometown church, nor is All Souls. I checked out the AS website yesterday along with The Way and found some fairly disturbing material. The stated mission of AS is to “seed” communities with as many storefronts as possible – which is exactly the model being followed by The Way. But that’s another post….
May 1, 2011 at 3:23 pm #723549
Under AchieverMemberSo many participants here who are so open minded they’ve become blinded to their own close mindedness and intolerances of others lifestyle choices.
May 1, 2011 at 3:45 pm #723550
anonymeParticipantIt is the choice of venue and the insidious intrusion of church into state that is in question here – not tolerance or lifestyle choices. Having an opposing view or belief (or lack thereof) does not justify branding of “participants” as intolerant or close-minded. One can just imagine the outcry if a Wiccan group were to set up shop in an elementary school.
I’m thinking that Youngstown might be a good location for a branch of the American Atheist Society.
May 1, 2011 at 3:48 pm #723551
JoBParticipantunderachiever…
i feel compelled to point out that while some christian groups cast themselves as the underdog because of the close mindedness and intolerance of others..
they are in the forefront of discriminatory legislation towards those to whom they are intolerant.
in my opinion.. they have brought this backlash on themselves…
i just wish it didn’t spill over so readily onto the entire Christian community.
May 1, 2011 at 4:06 pm #723552
Under AchieverMemberIntolerance is intolerance, JoB — be it racial, ethnic, political, economic or religious. The true test of openmindedness is how one embraces those they disagree with.
anonyme, I’m sure YCAC would welcome the American Athiests Society to rent space. Even though I’m not atheist I have zero issues with their beliefs (or non-beliefs as the case may be).
I guess I didn’t get the memo that details how religious groups are not part of our community.
May 1, 2011 at 4:17 pm #723553
anonymeParticipantJoB – agreed. I’ve known Christians that I’ve admired enormously, in part because of their commitment to practice, not preach. I’ve had several friends in this category who were Seventh Day Adventists, a group that some might consider fundamentalist. Their religion was evident in their acceptance of others, their quest for peace, and a lifestyle designed to do no harm to other living beings. This included veganism. I was friends with some of these folks for quite some time before I was even aware of their religious affiliation.
It seems like the opposite is mostly true these days. Christianity has become a political movement with almost Rovian strategic machinations at work. All talk and no walk – although much of the rhetoric, and especially the approach, reminds me uncomfortably of the LaRouche brainwash groupies.
May 1, 2011 at 4:22 pm #723554
anonymeParticipantUA, you are misrepresenting my comments. Nowhere have I stated that religious groups cannot or should not be part of our community. I am saying that churches do not belong in schools, government buildings, or any facility that receives tax dollars. CLEAR?
May 1, 2011 at 4:40 pm #723555
Under AchieverMemberVery CLEAR, anonyme — sorry for my misunderstanding.
Where do you want the churches/government facilities non-use line drawn? Not to paint with too narrow a brush (or to be accused of a strawman arguement), but are church picnics held in Lincoln Park okay?
May 1, 2011 at 4:53 pm #723556
anonymeParticipantA picnic is not a religious service calling itself a “church” with an installation in a permanent facility.
May 1, 2011 at 5:27 pm #723557
DPMemberSeems like alberto’s solution is a good one. He’s going to talk to The Way folks and make sure they’re respectful of the space and the community.
Realistically, what else can he do at this point? He’s in a tough spot.
As for me, I’m glad YCAC is open to church groups using the space — with one major caveat that I detail below.
Although religious groups are not cultural groups in the strictest sense of the word, still, for better or worse religion IS a part of American culture and public life, and if we spend too much time trying to isolate the different spheres, I’m afraid we’ll only end up isolating ourselves.
Evangelical Groups
Evangelical groups of the kind to which Ken is so allergic are a slightly different matter. These groups use a variety of psychological pressure tactics to get people to join and stay joined, and when I saw that misleading postcard, I immediately smellt a rat. When I did some research, I discovered that The Way Church of God has been criticized for just such tactics. (I then remembered them from the days of my youth, when they were all over college campuses. In those days they were known as “Jesus people” or, more uncharitably, “Jesus freaks.”)
So obviously that’s a concern, but I’m quite sure that alberto is capable of dealing with it, now that he knows . . .
Again, while I do think YCAC should be open to church groups, personally, I would rather see more circus acts (no animals) than church services at Youngstown.
But then, I don’t have to pay their light bills.
May 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm #723558
anonymeParticipantDP – am I confused, or did you just do a flip-flop on this issue? Actually, several flips in your last post alone. I know how you like to stir things up, but I’d kinda like to know who you really are, and what you REALLY believe. I feel…used. This fishie is going to start avoiding your bait…
May 1, 2011 at 6:18 pm #723559
DPMemberOK. that’s fair. I’m sorry. I’ll try to clarify . . . My philosophy in a nutshell:
I BELIEVE in God, but
I’m NOT a Christian.
I’m FOR talking about religion/spirituality/atheism in mixed company.
I’m AGAINST taking any idea, religious or otherwise, on faith.
I’m FOR people being allowed to characterize the ideas of others as foolish, if those ideas can be demonstrated to be such.
I’m AGAINST characterizing people as foolish, even if they can be demonstrated to be such.
I’m FOR DNDA being allowed to make decisions about who rents their space, even if they do receive some public funds.
I’m FOR DNDA taking the pulse of the community regularly on their choices, exactly as they’re doing now.
In this particular case, I think DNDA should have decided differently but then, I don’t have all the inputs at my disposal. If no cultural group wanted that space in that time slot, I think it’s justified that they would rent it to The Way, with some specific conditions attached. Conditions that would apply to all churches.
While it’s true that in the past, The Way, as an organization, has been criticized for hard-core proselytizing, yet the West Seattle branch that we’re talking about here is nonetheless a bona fide community group, so they should be judged by their behavior, rather than what Wikipedia says about them on. They’ve got one strike against them already, with the postcard. But that could have been an honest mistake.
Tell you what. I’m going to attend one of their services incognito (if that’s possible any more) and decide for myself whether they’re really a good fit with the values espoused by DNDA. If I return from that all glassy-eyed, with a bunch of pamphlets in my hand, you have my permission to kidnap and “reprogram” me.
Just don’t take me to Staples, please. And make sure you have all the original program disks at hand before you start the reprogramming process.
;-)
May 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm #723560
redblackParticipantyou rang?
i don’t have time for a long screed (a relief, i’m sure) but i think that if the way is tax-exempt, they shouldn’t be able to use a facility that relies on taxpayer funding through neighborhood grants.
same goes for the other tax-exempt entities setting up shop in public schools.
let them seek other tax-exempt (church) property for their fundraising activities – which is all “church service” really is, and all it ever has been.
flame on. i’m wearing nomex.
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