Go Hillary

[walfredo]

Clinton supers jumping ship- Yet another superdelegate stating that the will of the people represented through pledged delegates should be ratified by the supers. Only differenece, this is a Senator and a current Hillary pledge! The writing is on the wall, and the Super option is getting less and less viable. Watch Clinton’s recent quotes, and viscious personal attacks. The only viable path to the gold remaining is to kneecap the opponent so he can no longer skate…

On Monday, The Columbian (the paper of record for southwest Washington State) ran a story that started filtering through to the national media on Tuesday.

Cantwell supporting Clinton — for now

By KATHIE DURBIN Columbian Staff Writer

Sen. Maria Cantwell (Sen. Patty Murray and Gov. Christine Gregoire in background)U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, one of Washington’s 17 Democratic superdelegates, isn’t ready to shift her allegiance from Sen. Hillary Clinton to Sen. Barack Obama — yet.

But in an interview with The Columbian’s editorial board Monday, she said the candidate with the most pledged delegates at the end of the primary season in late June will have the strongest claim to the party’s presidential nomination.

“I definitely don’t want the superdelegates to be the deciding factor,” she said.

“If we have a candidate who has the most delegates and the most states,” the Democratic party should come together around that candidate, Cantwell said. The pledged delegate count will be the most important factor, she said, because that is the basis of the nominating process.

Emphasis added.

Barack Obama has a virtual lock on the pledged delegate lead. He’s already won a majority states.

By those metrics, he will become the nominee.

The only way Clinton becomes the nominee is if superdelegates adopt hare-brained lead-counting schemes like the hilarious electoral college proposal floated by Evan Bayh.

Increasingly, it’s becoming clear that the uncommitted superdelegates won’t flout the popular vote.

And now — for the first time that I’m aware of — a U.S. Senator backing Hillary Clinton has publicly stated her commitment to the pledged delegate count.

It’s not the most sexy of stories, but it is something of a political earthquake.

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[JoB]

walfredo..

you don’t make me proud to be a democrat.

again.. are you a democrat?

or what is being erroneously referred to here lately as “hillary’s friends” .. the republican agitators at Fox who are doing everything they can to disrupt the Democratic primary?

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[JoB]

charlabob.. i have to say this…

this thread has been overrun by Obama posters because for some reason.. it seems impossible for the Obama posters on this forum to resist any opportunity to bash Hillary.

At first the Obama campaign was all about the Obama campaign… look at us and what we are doing. How could you not be on board?

Now, the Obama campaign is all about bashing Hillary.. look at her and how bad she is. How could you support her.. she is going to lose.

At what point does the Obama campaign actually get around to the issues?

because if any of you think this is going to fly this fall.. you had best rethink this.

The press loves McCain… have you listened to NPR lately discussing that very phenomena?

McCain bashing isn’t going to work any better against McCain supporters than it has been against Hillary supporters…

You asked when i would come around. The short answer to this is that i won’t. And these tactics are the primary reason i won’t.

Why would i be converted by a bunch of people who gloat at their success at their feeding frenzy against the other candidate? This is against everything i stand for.

And i would point out that it is against everything that your candidate says he stands for.

I have to tell you that i am at the point that only my commitment.. which actually means something to me.. will keep me working on the Obama campaign if he is our candidate this fall.

I will do what i have to do to prevent a Republican from getting into the White House… if that is possible… but the recent conversation on on this blog has guaranteed i will never be an Obama supporter.

I am frankly disgusted by this exchange and if it wasn’t for those i speak for besides myself who support Hillary.. i would not take part in it any longer…

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[charlabob]

JoB — what is the Clinton campaign’s response to her documented misstatements about her role in Northern Ireland and Bosnia? What is her alternative claim to foreign policy expertise?

This morning I actually heard her say, “Bill talked to me.”

My decision to consider supporting Obama came when Clinton started running as “Bill’s Wife” when it suited her. She should be running a campaign contrasting her foreign policy ideas against Obama’s. It’s actually exciting that we have two candidates who could run on ideas and potential. If we wanted foreign policy experience, Richardson would have run away with the nomination and the election.

Again, please answer the questions about what’s actually going on with the campaign. I’m dedicated to working for and voting for whatever candidate we nominate. If the candidate is Clinton, I need to have facts. I don’t think Repugs and Independents will be swayed if I simply accuse them of not being Democrats.

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[Anonymous]

Gallup Poll: Many Democrats Ready to Vote McCain if Their First Choice Doesn’t Make It to November.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/26/gallup-poll-shows-many-democratic-voters-ready-to-vote-mccain-if-their-first-choice-doesnt-make-it-to-november/

Of course FOX news would have this as a top story!

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[walfredo]

JoB- what makes me proud to be a democrat are statements like the ones Hillary made yesterday in regards to pledged delegates “not actually being pledged.” That makes me proud…

When someone like Bill Clinton states how great it would be if two candidates who loved there country could be the nominees and excludes Obama (tricky stuff).

When Hillary says that McCain is the a great leader who brings a lifetime of experience, and has clearly passed the commander and chief test, but Obama gave a speech once.

When Hillary surrogates refuse to answer a question as direct as if you lose in number of pledged delegates, number of contests won, and popular vote would you step aside prior to the convention makes me proud.

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[JoB]

charlabob..

i am to going to do this.

There is no real question here.

Did Hillary exaggerate her role? Yup.

So does Obama. And he has a lot less to exaggerate.

The fact of the matter is that Hillary is and was Bill’s wife in the White House.

She was also Bill’s partner in the White House… a fact that was often bemoaned by Al gore… she was closer to him than he was.

I am amazed at women who would be offended to the core if anyone dismissed their contributions to any partnership with their husband as ceremonial… yet blithely dismiss Hillary as just a wife.

The Clintons have had a political partnership from their courtship days.

To dismiss her contributions to that partnership because she was his wife is demeaning at best.

Hillary’s position in the Clinton White House was anything but ceremonial… she was a conduit directly to the president that was unabashedly exploited by legislators, military leaders, lobbyists… and most likely foreign diplomats.

as for what is going on in the Clinton campaign right now…

nothing is.

The Clinton campaign is so busy trying to dig itself out of the mud that democrats have been relaying to her from the Republican slime machine that it is simply in a defensive mode.

she has been Swift boated.. but not without a great deal of help by her fellow democrats.

She and John Kerry have more in common than he would like.

Will she recover? I don’t know. I still hope so. Because i still believe that her presidency would be one of substance.

And i believe that she has what it will really take to beat McCain in the fall… a true underdog status.

And as for the Obama campaign.. what is it up to that was worth this?

You who are so appalled by racism have not only conveniently ignored the sexism in this campaign.. you have participated in it yourselves.

I you stopped to think about it.. you might wonder what damage that has done.

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[walfredo]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/i-was-sleep-dep.html

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/clinton-attac-1.html

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/shes-come-undon.html

Interesting take on the latest coming from the Clinton campaign.

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[beachdrivegirl]

The funny thing is when it was strictly about the issues Obama was kicking a**, I think that was the time when he won 10 strait contests in a row.

Then Clinton chose to start playing the old repugs game of “dirty politics” in attempt to destroy a Democratic nominee. And now that the Obama campaign is fighting back we are all bullys. We have talked about the issues and why we support him. And it is kind of funny that anything that is “attacking” Hillary is not being said by Michelle or Barack himself. WE should be the ones being pissed. Bill and Hillary are outright attacking Obama and trying to make him seem unelectable. They are alienating the Democratic party.

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[JoB]

BTW.. in view of this morning’s posts..

i want to be sure that everyone understands that i am not just positioning myself in this grand game of arguement…

I am not angry. I am not bitter. There are no sour grapes. This isn’t about winning. And… I have not given up hope.

I am incredibly saddened…

and sometimes disgusted by what ha been posted here lately…

especially the latest innuendos equating Hillary and the Republican slime machine… hinting that they are working for her…

The language used in this contest.. talk of stolen elections among democrats.. appalls me.

I am not a happy camper today… and i think i might just take another day off..

because frankly.. i don’t really really want to care about what follows this post.

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[charlabob]

JoB — give us links to PROHillary information (that aren’t from the campaign site.) I’m dead serious.

I obviously disagree with your assessment of bashing. And I suspect your response to this will be “Why bother–YOU won’t listen?” But I will — I suspect so will many other people here.

I do wish some of the pro-Clinton lurkers would post here too — it’s not fair for JoB to have to do it all. There are many Obama voices, saying different things and even disagreeing from time to time.

Anyway, I look forward to pro-Clinton *facts* or refutations of the Obama facts. I don’t look forward to being accused of bashing, being unDemocratic and undemcoratic, and general mahem.

I won’t leave the party over this; I’ve been invited out by antiMcCarthy, antiMcGovern, antiDean, antiKucinich, and antiEdwards party regulars and I didn’t leave. You see, it’s my party too and I’ll do everything I can to keep the damned tent from getting any smaller.

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[c@lbob]

Since there has been some blindness exhibited here relative to the Clintons and the “vast right-wing conspiracy”, here are a couple of informative commentaries about that relationship.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0510-20.htm

http://www.observer.com/2007/hillary-clinton-fox-news-superstar

Clinton wasn’t forced to meet with the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review editorial board. She saw it as an opportunity to be asked about the Obama/Wright dustup and attempt to revitalize it. She got her wish and attempted to sauté Obama once again, verrry savvy Hillary, and very underhanded.

If either Obama or Clinton gets 1% of the Fox News audience to vote for them I’d be surprised, that isn’t how Fox helps her. The help comes from the well documented fact that legitimate media pick up on Fox stories by-way-of the right wing commentators they all hire for what is laughingly called “balance”.

This triangulization, both-end-against-the-middle, Faustian strategy has been honed by the Clintons for decades now, at the expense of the Democratic party in general, It is now being taken to level of a suicide pact by the Hillary campaign.

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[JoB]

charlabob…

all you have to do is look back through the posts.. at one time i wasn’t so busy defending her… i had time for positive posts.

and i am not going to waste this day producing posts that i get to spend the rest of the day defending. No thanks.

I won’t participate in this any more today.

I am tired of this.

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[walfredo]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/hillarys-audacity-of-ho_b_93374.html

Another great article pointing out the reality of Hillary’s candidacy at this point.

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[JoB]

catlbob.. if Fox is so busy helping Hillary and the other networks are picking up on it.. can you explain why her her coverage has been consistently 60-70% negative throughout this campaign?

Check Obamas … i don’t hink his even approaches that this past week or so.. even with Rev Wright.

And then take a look at McCain’s.

Yes, Fox news does drive the stories.. and perhaps you should cast a critical eye where they are being driven.

enough of this drivel…

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[c@lbob]

If one takes any criticism as bashing, I suppose they could delude themselves into believing that Clinton received bad press before she started her scorched earth strategy. In fact, she got much better press than John Edwards got, since he was routinely ignored.

In the past few days, I have had the occasion to read all your posts and you should too, because they are very long on your opinion and short on specific examples.

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[charlabob]

Um, the questions I asked have come up in the past week so they aren’t likely to have been covered in previous posts. Thanks for the courtesy of a response. I’ll keep looking for the answers on my own.

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[beachdrivegirl]

What is funny Charlabob is after you posted I began to look and look and I just couldnt find anything? I will keep you posted on anything I find and feel free to share anything you find as well. :)

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[JoB]

I am done.

And i am going to tell you why i am done.

I am done because catlbob has just criticized me for only having opinions…

The thing i have appreciated about this forum is that unlike others on the net, it’s members are interested in community… in making this forum a virtual public square where members meet one another and discuss what is important to them.

Unlike many of you.. i have been stating my personal case for my candidate… which is what i believe to be the hallmark of political discussion… and is consistent with the intent of this forum.

In what i believed to be conversation and sometimes debate with my fellow democrats… i have relied on common sense.

In regards to the Obama/Clinton conversation, I haven’t trolled the web to find one more article backing up my points… Most of the links i have posted have been something i found digging deeper while diligently reading the links posted by Obama supporters…

when i have referred to an article it has been to inform… not to document my case. though you wouldn’t have thought so at the reaction i got.

that is not the case when it came to the McCain thread. I went trolling… and i didn’t have to troll far.

And please… catlbob… read any link of mine in reference to the democratic primary and feel free to make your case refuting that claim.

i fully expect you to and don’t intend to go back and defend anything i said or linked to..

I have become frustrated and angry on occasion.

But i have purposefully tried not to indulge in the endless round of he said she said that has been the hallmark of these threads.

I have consistently tried to get this thread back on a positive exchange of ideas.. to little avail.

There is no longer conversation here.. and the animosity this is breeding has leaked into other threads… with an honest apology at offense refused twice in a seemingly innocent discussion about trader joes that ended up touching on racial prejudice… which by the way is alive and well on all sides of the fence here.

I apologize to Hillary supporters who have been glad that someone was willing to stand up day by day and defend their position. But there is no longer any point in engaging in this increasingly acrimonious and unproductive conversation.

I don’t ask any of you to stand up and take my place against this kind of abuse.

I am not leaving this conversation because i am unable to defend my own position.. or that of my candidate.

I am leaving this conversation because participating in it any longer would be inconsistent with my own personal standards.

For many of you, Obama’s speeches may be the first time you have heard those messages.. but i have been living them since my teens… and i actually believe those messages worth standing up for.

I hadn’t intended to make this decision when i came back to the keyboard. I followed the latest links and was going to reply to them.. but catlbob’s post stopped me dead in my tracks.. and i had to ask myself what i was doing here.

I have not liked the answer.. that i have been contributing to the divisiveness that is the hallmark of this primary.

Contrary to what many of you might be thinking as you cheer at winning over JoB.. i do not believe that Hillary should withdraw from this race. I have not stopped supporting my candidate. I sent her more money today.

I am more sorry than you know that i am unable to provide a voice for my candidate.. but i refuse to contribute to this acrimony… and there is no way it can be anything else without respect for the opinions of others.

I have patiently tried to respond with common sense.. but when even that is trivialized and becomes a liability… any opportunity for conversation is over.

It’s been fun.

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[Anonymous]

JoB, a couple of the people who have been giving you a hard time have been members less than a week. The intent seems to be to argue for the sake of arguing. Maybe you could just ignore that chatter and continue to discuss, inform, and debate with those of us that do care about what you have to say.

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[WSMom]

I agree with JT!! You have many admirers on this forum JoB. We need your input and point-of-view!

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[walfredo]

It would be excruciatingly difficult to try to defend the positions of the Clinton campaign day after day.

Having to throw out logic and common sense. Having to denounce math. Having to ignore all news reports. Having to sugarcoat your candidates most recent endorsement of John McCain. Defending whatever the latest misstep of Bill was.

I understand where your frustration is coming from, and I would like to point out there is an easier solution.

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[charlabob]

JT, I have to defend one of the newbies, who is actually the bob half of charlabob. He’s been here forever; just hasn’t posted separately before. I’m only saying that because some people already know it — and because we can be equally annoying together or apart and even, sometimes, to each other. You should have heard us when he moved to Obama post-Edwards and I clung wistfully to a hope for Clinton.

JoB — I hope you reconsider, as I have when I swore off posting. I do think the other people who support Clinton owe it to you and to Clinton to post as well. It’s difficult for one person to hold up any viewpoint.

It’s been a long time since I’ve ready anything from the Clinton side (and not just on this blog) defending some of the things we object to.

Does she have a stated reason for all but endorsing McCain? Does she have a stated reason for padding her resume with regard to foreign policy experience? As I said before, I’d LOVE to have two candidates who talked about their foreign policy ideas and energy and enthusiasm and the advisors who will help them implement. Frankly, claiming experience based on her husband’s old job is insulting to women! I wish she’d done something other than be Bill’s wife for the 8 years he was in the White House…nothing stopped her. The Bill and Hillary bashers certainly wouldn’t have been crueler if she’d been working outside the big giant home.

NO ONE is qualified to be president day one. (Whatever that means — don’t you love how these things develop lives of their own?) Clinton and Obama have the opportunity to admit that and go on to present new ideas and excite the American(sic) people. Only Obama has done that.

I am on a mission to find the Clinton side of some of these issues and post them here, with links. From my viewpoint, that’s what’s been missing.

Again, unless this all is affecting your health — which I could understand and empathize with — please don’t make this departure permanent.

Your voice will be missed by the community and I, personally, will miss you immensely.

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[JoB]

walfredo..

you exceeded my expectations.. thanks for confirming my choice.

you still haven’t stated that you are a democrat or that you will work for whatever democrat the party selects… what’s up with that?

charlabob..

i am going to assume you are being forthright..

so i am going to give your post the kind of reply it stimulates…

Has obama explained why he exaggerated his involvement in bills he takes credit for?

Has Obama explained how he could sit in the pew of Reverend Wright’s church for so many years without realizing that his pastor’s rhetoric was often inflammatory at best?

Has Obama explained how he can continue association with a church that honors Farrakon?

Has Obama explained why he thinks we should believe that friendship is worth paying an extra $100,000 on a parcel of land.. over 3 times it’s appraised value?

Does that stimulate conversation?

All it does is put the other party in an immediate defense mode… which is what you got back…

And i didn’t even go the step farther.. using inflammatory language…

“Does she have a stated reason for all but endorsing McCain?”

I assume you mean .. has she explained why she would refer to John McCain as also being experienced?

“Does she have a stated reason for padding her resume with regard to foreign policy experience?”

I assume you mean… has she explained why she exaggerated her involvement in foreign policy?

This part was just personal insults aimed at Hillary that spilled over where i don’t think you intended…

“Frankly, claiming experience based on her husband’s old job is insulting to women! … The Bill and Hillary bashers certainly wouldn’t have been crueler if she’d been working outside the big giant home.”

so.. i take it you are implying that she did nothing as a First Lady but be arm candy?

Charla.. that is patently untrue..

Also, you have branded her contributions, whatever they were.. as women’s work… and that is sexist. even when it comes from a woman.

and as to whether she could have done anything without being bashed.. I’d like to remind you that she couldn’t even choose an outfit or change her hairstyle without being bashed.

So, aside from the fact that this was a highly personal attack on Senator Clinton…

it is sexist and insulting to any woman who has worked in the background in a supportive position in partnership with their husbands in any number of ventures…

including me.

If we get past the Clinton bashing and sexist remarks…

i don’t see how accusatory language leads to conversation even when it doesn’t include inflammatory language… and this clearly does.

I think we have been so inundated with inflammatory language where Hillary is concerned that most of us don’t even recognize it any longer.

I am not interested in flinging campaign rhetoric back and forth.. especially not when much of that rhetoric comes right out of FOX news…

I am not going to do the republican pundits job for them.

I am only interested in conversation.

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[charlabob]

Why I don’t think anything I said was bashing:

All but endorsing McCain: Saying two candidates have experience. Saying two candidates are patriotic. Isn’t that saying, “If your choice is between John and me, you’ll have a choice between two experience patriots?” Remember back when we were all gleeful because, no matter who we nominated, we’d have a great candidate? Seems like a lifetime ago …

Exaggerating foreign policy experience: I am saying she has plenty to run on IF she talked about her ideas, her vision, her implementation, her possible advisors and cabinet. But, instead, she chose to pretend to have participated in traditional ways and she didn’t.

Running as Bill’s Wife: After the Bosnia misstatement, she reverted to “Bill talked to me.” I didn’t imply she was only arm candy–I implied she’s not talking about what she actually did. I, further, declare that what she did was impressive and worth running on. And that, plus her record as a senator, would make her a worthy adversary for Obama and for McCain. But that’s not the campaign she chose to run.

Yeah, she was bashed endlessly for changing her hair and gaining 10 pounds. SO, I’m saying since she was getting bashed anyway, why not just get out front on something important. There’s no way I’m saying her contributions were just “little woman” stuff. She’s the one who’s pretending to have done something else because she doesn’t think her true contributions are enough to stand on.

Now, what I really think is that she has gotten bad advice, from the get-go, from the men around her. And pols, male or female, listen to their advisors instead of listening to their hearts.

Mark Penn and (McCain’s leading advisor) are partners in a lobbying firm. I can’t imagine why he even has a job in the Clinton campaign. James Carville is a blowhard who’s married to a very powerful right-wing operative. Why are these people advising her? Hell, while we’re at it, why is she listening to Bill? He’s very good at getting Bill elected but they aren’t the same person.

And, yup, I’m sure Obama has a number of equally questionable advisors–but they haven’t done anything yet to make me notice.

And, yup, Obama has exaggerated his resume — THEY ALL DO! The difference is the things he exaggerated (so far) weren’t the centerpieces of his campaign.

I’ll continue to look for the Clinton campaign’s positive rationale for these points. If I find them, I’ll post them here.

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