Hot for Hillary

[walfredo]

JoB-

You’ve got to keep some humor in this…

I think Keith Olberman had the best quote from last night:

“Given the the nature of the delegate math. “What are we all (the pundits) still doing here?”

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[beachdrivegirl]

I have to give Hillary some props after hearing her urge her voters not to vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee. Thanks hillary that is very kind!

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

contrary to popular opinion..

hillary has stated all along that she would work her tail off to elect whoever the democratic nominee was…

it’s not news that she is doing so now…

She has always been the class act that you are suddenly going to discover if Obama gets the nomination…

in fact.. he counts on it.

So does the party.

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[walfredo]

JoB- which clip to you think gets played when the general starts? Her quotes now, or her “John McCain has a lifetime of service, and passes the commander and chief test. Obama has a speech he gave in 2002.”? Not to mention her response to William Ayers question in the debate… I believe you served on a committe board with him…

I’m not going to continue bashing Clinton as a person, or candidate. I understand her importance to the party, and the election in November, but it really isn’t true to say that this has been her tone consistently. She stepped over what is consdiered inbounds during primaries more then a few times, and has provided a lot of ammunition in the fall for the opposition party.

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[JoB]

Walfredo…

I get that you hate Hillary…

I get that you are consistent…

I get that you blame her for anything and everything.

I don’t think there is a single person who reads this blog that doesn’t understand that this campaign for you has been about defeating Hillary and being part of a winning campaign.

You didn’t leave any doubt.

Here’s the problem with blaming Hillary.

IT WAS NEVER HER JOB AS A CANDIDATE TO MAKE AN OBAMA PRESIDENCY LOOK GOOD.

AS A CANDIDATE IT WAS HER JOB TO UNCOVER EVERY WEAKNESS HE HAD.

Frankly, I don’t think she did a very good job of it or she would have the nomination.

So get over the fact that she did her job.

If Obama has the nomination.. as you haven’t stopped proclaiming for months now… then it is long past time to start creating that overwhelming majority that it will take to actually secure a democratic presidency…

because if the last two presidential elections should have taught us anything .. it is that there is no such thing as a close vote with Republicans.

And i have to tell you.. you aren’t doing such a good job of that.

If i wasn’t committed to securing a democratic presidency this fall.. you personally would long ago have alienated me right out of voting at all…

If i am that disgusted… imagine how others who aren’t so committed feel.

If you want to be part of that winning team this fall perhaps it’s time to start actually practicing some of that unity that Obama preaches.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB she was not doing her job. When she says that McCain has more experience than Obama that is demoralizing to the Democatic nominatiion process. Hillary just finally admitted her defeat when she finally decided to speak postiivly about Obama. And quite frankly, I think it is time you stop defending hillary. The process is over in a few days and Obama is the nominee. So for someone that wants so much “unity” I suggest you start practicing it.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB she was not doing her job. When she says that McCain has more experience than Obama that is demoralizing to the Democatic nominatiion process. Hillary just finally admitted her defeat when she finally decided to speak postiivly about Obama. And quite frankly, I think it is time you stop defending hillary. The process is over in a few days and Obama is the nominee. So for someone that wants so much “unity” I suggest you start practicing it.

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[Anonymous]

BDG, I thought the same thing. This past week when it became irrefutably obvious that Obama is the nominee, coincided with Hillary changing her tone.

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[JoB]

i wouldn’t have to keep defending Hillary’s right to exist as a candidate if it wasn’t continually assaulted here every day.

It’s still not her job to make Obama’s presidency.

Or mine.. for that matter.

It is only her job when he has the nomination.

i agree.. it looks like he will get it… but i don’t think that’s a good thing.

one of the largest reasons i don’t think it is a good thing is because the half of the party who supports Obama thinks that the other half is just in their way.

So it should come as no surprise that i think that denying the those who support her their right to be heard through the next couple of weeks is not a good thing.

While you are all doing your little premature victory dance.. and wanting all those stubborn Clinton supporters to just shut up… you might just ask yourselves how you are going to get him elected without the other half of the party.

What exactly is it you think we owe you.. if you don’t even think we have the right to be heard?

I didn’t approachthis campaign as a NOT-Obama campaign tho my stance on this forum has evolved to that from the need to daily defend Hillary’s right to even be in the campaign.

More than that.. on more than one occasion.. i have had to fend off personal insults simply because some of you don’t like what i have to say… so much so that the nastiness carried over to other non-political threads.

I have actually seriously considered giving up this forum entirely.. due to the animosity i have experienced here.

Because on this forum.. excepting WSMom… the Obama campaign has been waged as a NOT-Hillary campaign… not as a pro-Obama campaign. I believe this has been a campaign of personality in the worst way…

and it has been responsible for creating more than a fair amount of resistance to Senator Obama in my heart and mind. In fact, if i had to go campaign for him today.. i couldn’t.

And you Obama supporters on this thread can thank yourselves for that.

I honestly can’t think of one reason why he should be our president other than the fact that he is not a Republican. And as i told New Resident… i honestly think electing someone because they are not someone else is the worst reason possible…

So, i honestly believe that many of you have supported him for the worst reason possible… and

I don’t expect anything good to come of it.

To be honest, i don’t even expect us to win in November with him as our candidate… and that breaks my heart.

I will find some way to get past this and mobilize my precinct if he is the nominee.. but if this conversation continues the way it has..

i will have to give up this forum to do it.

that is just one woman’s experience.. but i sure doesn’t say much for the inclusiveness of this campaign.

i guess inclusive really means that you will grant others the right to be heard only if they will agree with you.

JT..

Senator Clinton has said repeatedly throughout this campaign that she would support any nominee chosen by the party 100%.. and that she would expect her supporters to do the same.

That it hasn’t been news until they decided it looked like concessions… doesn’t make it a new stance.

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[Kayleigh]

Jo, I apologize if I offended you personally.

I started out as the Anybody But Hillary person, but grew to have tremendous respect and awe for Obama. I still believe Edwards is the best candidate, but Obama is going to be our next president and I am behind him 1000%.

Hillary’s campaign earned the criticism it got. She’s offended a lot of people, and I’m glad she’s come full circle and will support the party. She is a complex woman, and there are parts of her I like–but the parts I *don’t* like have harmed Obama’s candidacy more than her supporters seem to see.

Please don’t let your wounded vanity be more important than getting a Democrat in the presidency. You would be saying the exact same thing to me if Hillary had won the nomination, and you would be right.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB-

As a hilllary supporter dont you think that we Obama suppoprters are in her way as well???While infact, we our supporting the canidate who has the most contests won, more delegates won, majority of popular vote, and (drum roll please)superdelegates! And it is mathmatically impossible for Clinton to win. I think it the fact that we ask her nicely to move on with her political career is perfectly fine. There is no reason (other than to cuase anomisty in the party and make her supporters believe that Obama can’t beat McCain) for her to stay in the party. You even mention this in your post wehn you say you dont belive Obama can we the election in November so she is on to something. Did you not ready WSMoms link that addressed the issues? I think that if you actually got over the “hillary is the best attitude” you would realize that in fact Obama and Clinton’s policies are very similar the difference is Obama does not bring division into the election process he brings not only change but unity. Call us inclusive all you want but honeslty i think that is more the clinton circle because clinton is the wont hat has brainwasehd her supporters to actually believe the b.s. she has preached about her being more electable and actually having more fo the popular vote etc.

Again, if you give it out and call people names you have to be able to take it. I am sorry if you cant.

And lastly, i dont think that Hillary consisttently bad mouthing obama and saying McCAin is more electable is actually telling her supporets to support the nominee.

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[charlabob]

My apologies to other readers — this is apparently personal and I can’t just ignore it any longer.

JoB, you’re an intelligent woman so I can’t believe you believe what you’re saying. I realize the “hostility that carries over to other threads” crack is aimed at me, because I was making fun of myself on an auction thread. So you, apparently, assume you know my motives better than I do. You’re wrong, and I would add, quite arrogant to assume that.

The fact is you were talking about a scavenger hunt and I was making fun of myself because, for those of you who haven’t met me, I can barely walk, never mind hunt. So hopping from yard sale to yard sale just wasn’t in my future. I was, to say the least, quite stunned and bemused to hear I was carrying my political bias into nonpolitical threads.

That incident is not even slightly interesting except it is how you relate to the Obama campaign as well — you make up a straw person and then rage against it. It won’t work. People are smarter than that. I give them credit.

I challenge many of your beliefs–out loud–in public; that means I loathe you. Nope. I challenge much of what Clinton claims to believe, because the Clinton family doesn’t have a very good track record with regard to implementation of their beliefs. That means I hate them? Nope.

Fact is, I believe you, personally, are responsible for much of the animosity in the political forums here. People type on tiptoe or risk being attacked. For most people, it’s not worth it, so they don’t type at all.

I believe the people here do listen to each other. One way you can tell? Quite frequently, person A says, “foo”. Person B says “Foo? But what about Foo” Person B says, “Maybe, but I still think foo.” See, that’s conversation. When one person says “foo” and the next person says, “How dare you, you brute?” That ain’t conversation. That’s passive aggression, at its best and worst.

The only thing you said with which I can agree is: This is just one woman’s experience. It is; it’s a unique experience, which you have created for yourself.

I’m responding because I know words have a power and most people don’t bother to dig beneath them for the truth. The millionaire candidate with the fewest millions and the poorest background is the elitist. The black candidate is the racist. The preacher who tells the truth is the crazy man. The preacher who encourages bias of every kind is the holy man.

I worry that people not consumed with politics will see “Obama supporters are mean people who don’t include anyone,” and go away believing it. It’s not true. It is not true of the people on this forum and it is not true of the people in general.

My apologies, as I said, to people not interested in this feud — which, I imagine, is most of us and usually me.

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[beachdrivegirl]

The funny thing is Charlabob I thought it was because of me. Because JoB decided to tell me I was elite and shared in House’s ideas. I made a joke of it and shared it with House in his post becuase I didnt know if he would read the Hot for Hillary thread. I dont feel bad for telling him about it or posting on his House update thread beacuse quite frankly it is just silly to think House and I share the same pricniples I think we (house and I) even had a few disputes over homelessness etc. and I thought I would give House a laugh.

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[charlabob]

Well, bdg — maybe we’re just each self-absorbed oafs :-)

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[Anonymous]

JoB – If you are still listening, I want to add my opinion here.

I find it aggravating that you come down on people who can’t accept that their opinion is the *right* opinion, yet you continuously do this. Not just to me.

I feel that because I hold almost none of the same views or opinions as you, you talk down to me, you condescend. Almost all of your *proof* is a personal situation that you have encountered sometime in your life. And because you are older than me, that should be enough.

I respect you. I have told you this numerous times before. I respect you as a person, a woman, a Democrat, a mother etc.

I apologize if my tone has gotten a little more aggressive lately, but this is the reason. I do not feel that I am getting the same respect in return.

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[JoB]

No beachdrivegirl..

as a Hillary supporter i don’t think Obama’s supporters are just in the way…

i would fight to the death for the right of any one of them to state their case for their candidate. I just wish any of you could do so without the kinds of remarks that are in nearly every post about Hillary.

i don’t think what is going on could be categorized as asking Hillary politely to step down. I think it has been a long time since leveling charges and name calling were considered asking nicely… What has been happening is much more like a demand than asking nicely.

And it isn’t just Hillary you all want to step aside… you want anyone who isn’t willing to ignore any flaws in Obama .. or doesn’t agree with his political stance.. to step aside..

I don’t have disdain for those who support Obama… but i do have a fair amount of disdain for those tactics.

i have point out that educated whites and blacks are not the only democrats.. and certainly not the only voters in America… and i am accused of saying those are the only voters who count.

Well.. unless Senator Obama can find some way to reach out to those voters… which he is clearly not doing… they will become the voters who count this fall.. his lack of interest in what matters to them will lose him the election.

You are wrong that there is no other reason for Hillary to stay in the race than to cause animosity…

unless she stays in until the primaries are over…. there isn’t a chance that the democratic party will pay the least bit of attention to the policy concerns of those who don’t support Obama…

There are real differences that matter a great deal to me and to other voters like me. we weren’t voting anti-Obama.. but pro Hillary and the policies she stands for.

There is something much bigger at stake here than who wins the democratic primary… both at the convention and in the general election this fall.

Kayleigh..

what i had to say had nothing to do with my wounded vanity… contrary to popular opinion.. i am not identifying with Hillary so closely that i don’t understand the many differences between us.

or for that matter.. the objections i have to some of her political stances.

I spoke from the heart about the manipulation of our party’s politics once again by the republican party… and of the great peril i see in Obama’s nomination…

You can choose to call that sour grapes.. but i bring up points that would be worth considering if you want Obama to win the presidency.

I seem to have p..d off a few people here by saying what they don’t want to hear.

The problem is that the last 5 posts only show that some of you find it easier to insult the messenger than combat the message…

that might have something to do with why i feel the way i do today.

and might just be the insurmountable problem of the Obama campaign…

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[walfredo]

JoB-

I have done everything I can to not make this personal. It is not a personal argument. I use facts and logic, and try to point out anything I see that is false, specifically when it is pointed at my favorite candidate.

You made a statement that said HRC has always stated she would support the other candidate. I pointed out a couple of instances where that was false. That doesn’t mean I hate her, nor is it a personal attack on you.

On your most recent point, that it is her job to expose Obama’s faults, and to capitalize on them… Well, you can make that argument, and I wouldn’t fully disagree. Most people would say her job is to win the most delegates, and a good way to do that is to have a positive message, and not to bash your opponent… But I will concede, she has every right to say negative things about Barack Obama during the primary contest.

What I personally found offensive, and where my critique on the race went from, I’d prefer Barack to be the nominee, to it will be devastating if Barack is not the nominee, was when she openly endorsed the republican rival in comparison to her opponent. That is not her job, please find me one quote similar from a primary nominee in the last 40 years… The presumptive nominee from the opposition has the experience and has passed the tests to qualify him to be president, and my opponent gave a speech in 2002. It was condescending, it was dishonest, and it was desperate. It was done at a time, when mathmatically there was almost no chance of her being the nominee, and its only goal was to be destructive toward her opponent…

Now, she has every right to want to be the president, and to do what she can to win the nomination, some folks will like her and her tactics, some won’t. What will define her in this campaign, will be if she is able to apologize for her statements, make nice with Obama, and actively and effectively bring her supporters to the Obama ticket…

I have judged her as a candidate, and I didn’t like her, but I don’t hate her. I will judge her as a person in the next 6 months… You are right, the white house goes through her supporters, Obama cannot win without a large percentage of there support…

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[JoB]

New Resident…

it is not respectful to belittle someone for using personal stories to illustrate a point.

contrary to your opinion, that is not all i do to prove a point.

I wouldn’t irritate you nearly so much if it was.

You were fine with stories until someone else said i couldn’t use them…

what you aren’t fine with is the logic and links to information that challenges what you hear from Republican sources…

BTW.. since i will assume you didn’t know this… and couldn’t hear it when i said it before…

saying stories don’t count.. and experience doesn’t count.. is the classic tactic for denying minorities a voice… and minorities includes the uneducated and undereducated.

If you control the content of a conversation… you can control the conversation. You get to decide what’s relevant or what isn’t.

I don’t play by those rules because those rules have dehumanized decision making…. and that’s not healthy for women and babies…

it’s not healthy for men either.. but i figure that they can more easily take care of themselves…

This kind of dehumanization is what i find most disturbing about the current brand of Republican politics…

and quite frankly.. it’s not very respectful of you as a Republican woman either.

The Republican male who repudiated stories repudiated yours as well.. he just didn’t single you out.

look up how many times John McCain has even mentioned women in this campaign…

he doesn’t appear to think women.. or their voices.. matter much… and in that, he is very much a man of his party.

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[JoB]

Walfredo…

i will admit you have been fairly careful about insulting me personally lately.. and that is much appreciated.

but.. you respond to any questions or concerns i have about Obama with one of two things.. either promoting the campaign.. or negative comments about Hillary.

Which by the way.. have been your hallmarks since the beginning…

I didn’t notice that the tenor of them changed that much when Hillary made the remarks that became sound bites about John McCain… you just rationalized them better after.

I think there should be more to choosing a candidate than not choosing another..

or than the brilliance of the campaign…

This isn’t just a candidate. We are choosing who we want to be President of the United States at a crucial time in our country’s history.

And i am sure we are blowing it.

I am far more comfortable with the democratic party faithful choosing Senator Obama because of his political skills.. they are falling all over themselves to be on what they think will be the winning team… they can’t even wait two weeks for the primaries to play out… everyone is afraid they will lose some advantage.

I am more comfortable with their self serving reasoning than with voters choosing him because of a deft marketing campaign…. that isn’t likely to stand up to Republican assaults in the fall.

The party can’t sell his political skills now without losing his core base of progressives..

and yet that is what they most need to sell if we are going to win.

i think we are backing the wrong horse…

Nader is in it again… he will stake the future of the country on his principles…

That is who I think disillusioned progressives will vote for. And they are increasing in number as the party faithful fall all over themselves to anoint the new king.

It’s becoming harder to buy that he is still an outsider as those who have betrayed progressive ideals most endorse him.

In spite of all the hype about his campaign… to a student of democratic politics.. this looks bleak.

Unless he can carry the core of the democratic party.. and find some way to appeal to the self interests of the rest… we are likely to have another four years of republican rape..

that’s not my idea of a good time.

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[Anonymous]

JoB, you are just not getting it. Your chief complaint has been the assumption that you and like minded voters are not getting a voice at the table. Based on this forum, so not true. Ten people post one thing, you post ten long lectures. Your voice is getting an extremely disproportionate amount of space.

I have kept silent, but some self reflection, just might be a good idea. There is a lot of smugness and condescension coming across on your part. Repeatedly telling others what they need to feel, think, and do, (if they know what’s good for them) while also presuming you speak for democrats, women, etc. Perhaps not your intention, but it is how you sound.

From the outside listening in, I actually feel sorry for Walfredo. You have been fairly rude to him and others. Do you really need to write on here that he’s too boring to bother with? Every one here counts.

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[JoB]

JT…

on this page alone…

i have posted 9 times, in response to 20 different posts.

that, by the way is only 2 less posts than beachdrivegirl..

so based on this page alone…. i would say that my voice.. the only one representing Hillary.. is probably underrepresented…

i am not going to go back and count other pages for you…

perhaps you are not getting it.

4 people in the last 2 hours have chosen to make derogatory remarks about me.. including you.

You criticize my style… my presumption…my smugness… my condescension…

all this has done is prove the point of my post…

Since when did it become ok to attack individuals?

I never wrote that Walfredo was too boring…

i wrote than his two step response to everything i posted.. either anti-hillary or all about the campaign is boring..

I called his posts flaming Hillary charming…

but i did not call him names…

So why is it ok to do that to me? Because i support Hillary.. which is clearly not a popular stance?

Right now i would like to tell everyone who thinks it is ok to comment on me personally rather than the ideas i present to stick it all where the sun doesn’t shine…

until i can refrain from doing so.. i won’t be posting here again.

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[TammiWS]

Wow, JOB and NR are both dropping off – you both need to meet and get past this! I’m sorry but JOB I’ve followed your posts – I cant read them all because they are quite long – and while I’m sure you have ALOT of experience, history, and relevent information to share – you’re getting too angry about all of this. You may not think you’re attacking people – none of us think we are doing anything of the sort – but maybe you should re-read the posts – they do seem to attack and berate people – yet you state you want to have a civilized debate? I read your comments to Walfredo as an attack on his being a ‘bore’ – not about his written word – sarcasim is very passive/aggressive and thats how your posts are beginning to sound. I’ve not met you but think you probably have a lot of wisdom – however as a women dont understand how one can support Hillary – but that said – I still think you have relevance and information to share and I could learn from your experiences. Just no need to be angry about it – or mean- or condecending. It diminishes your point of view….I guess this is the downside of the typed word – misinterpretation, loss of facial expressions, being civil to one another because its the right thing to do – face to face meetings and debates offer so much more I think? :)

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[JoB]

charla…

i have decided to end my long silence with you.

“I challenge many of your beliefs–out loud–in public; that means I loathe you. Nope. I challenge much of what Clinton claims to believe, because the Clinton family doesn’t have a very good track record with regard to implementation of their beliefs. That means I hate them? Nope.”

Really? … so should i understand from this that you are incapable of making an intelligent argument without using epitaphs to describe someone you simply disagree with…

and incapable of separating the message from the messenger?

That explains a lot.

It certainly explains why i chose to quit talking publicly with you.

I still have the emails you sent to my home when i stopped communicating with you on this forum Charla.. and they are anything but dispassionate disagreement… sent to my home when i would no longer respond to your posts here.

I also still have those you sent regarding another individual who you think has no right to post because they disagree with your political views.

I think you have made this very personal Charla… and not in a nice way.

“Fact is, I believe you, personally, are responsible for much of the animosity in the political forums here. People type on tiptoe or risk being attacked. For most people, it’s not worth it, so they don’t type at all. “

This is what you chose to say that set off the pack yesterday…

That is an interesting perspective.

I am the single Clinton voice left on this forum.

So.. by refusing to accept the kind of vilification of the Clintons that you have led the pack in presenting.. i cause the problem.

Well.. you are certainly consistent…

Anyone who doesn’t agree with you and actually says so is the problem…

if they don’t defend themselves and their ideas.. you have triumphed by reason…

if they do.. they cause the problem.

I don’t think i have ever had the dubious privilege of communicating with anyone who was so intolerant of other people’s ideas…

As for all those who would post here if not for their great fear of being attacked by me… i would ask one question.

Why do those who have the least to fear from me no longer post.. those other people in West Seattle who genuinely believe that Hillary is by far the better candidate?

the anti-Hillary posts here outnumber mine at least 3 to one… and i am the sole Clinton voice left.

Who is afraid to post for fear of attacks?

I could go through these political threads and count the number of posts that don’t contain a personal attack on Hillary… including my own and those of all Clinton supporters… and stack them next to the volume of anti-Hillary posts.. and that alone would make my point.

and let me be perfectly clear.. I am talking about those that contain personal remarks on her character or call her names.. not those that refute her policies.

And in your case.. those personal attacks have spilled over onto me…

Charla.. i stopped communicating with you on this forum quite a while ago… not responding to any of your attacks.

Yet.. that has not stopped you from attacking me or the ideas i present.

I am done.

I can’t post here without your attacks.. and as i told you by email after your posts to me.. i won’t engage in that sort of behavior.

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[Kayleigh]

Jo, remember: being a Republican means never having to say you’re sorry. ;-)

But for the rest of us, sometimes an “I’m sorry if it came across that way” or a “that’s not what I meant” can go a long way.

You think you’ve been insulted? Try being told you’re less worldy than someone. Oh, and don’t forget that I enjoy the suffering of others. :-)

Consider the source….and consider that it’s OK to be wrong. Of course, I’m never wrong. Just ask my ex-husband. (insert a Jan-inspired heheheheh here.)

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[walfredo]

JoB-

I appreciate your opinion. I would like to suggest to you, that things are looking anything but bleak right now for Senator Obama!

He leads in national polls against McCain, even with 35% of Hillary’s current supporters against him. The democrats are winning republican districts in Louisiana, Mississippi! George Bush is still talking! Things are going great.

Try to keep an open mind, and watch Obama’s response to Bush’s disgraceful attack yesterday. He is going to absolutely knock this thing out of the park. This is what he is made for! He is the starkest contrast to the failed policies of the current administration, the lack of new ideas and old way of thinking of his new opponent that exists…

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