Why isn't he in jail?

[Jd seattle]

We’ll forgive me for trying to discuss it rationally. We can just go back to the same old way we’ve been doing things. You call me a gun nut and I’ll call you a gun grabber. That has been working so well. Goodnight all.

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[935]

I find it highly suspect that you have seen people walking around with machine guns. Have you been in war zones? The middle east? Military bases? Israel? You may have seen “scary looking guns” but I assure you, unless you are in the above locales, the likelihood that what you are seeing are fully automatic machines of war is virtually nil.

This is the problem I have with the anti gun crowd – they really don’t know what they’re talking about. ‘I don’t mind taking away your rights,just don’t touch mine’. ‘That gun is scary, we should ban it’. ‘If we pass gun control measures It Will Stop School Shootings’.

The simple fact of the matter is that guns are legal. They will continue to be legal. Bad people will do bad things. Bad people will get guns to do bad things. Instead of demonizing a piece (or several pieces of) steel – if you are interested in stopping school shootings – why not spend your energies working with disaffected youth. If you would like to stop random acts of violence, work with your legislators to create a mental health safety net. If you would like to stop domestic abusers from killing the object of their obsession, again, work with your legislators for sentencing revisions. All of the above by the way are forbidden to have guns.

As far as the “right” you say doesn’t exist in the second – it clearly states “the RIGHT to keep and a bear arms shall not be infringed”

As far as the document that created the distrust we have in this government, yes. Absolutely. Our Forefathers WANTED us to be wary of the government.

“An armed man is a citizen,an unarmed man is a subject. A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government” – George Washington

I guess words like these are only spoken in tyrannical times.

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[happywalker]

A few years ago my then 8 yr old nephew accidentally shot his 6 yr old brother in the head with a 45 caliber hand gun. It was “locked” in a small “locked” box. Unfortunately they were curious boys who knew where the key was kept as they had seen where it the “adult” hung it up. NO one was even held responsible, as the box was locked. A lot of good the both of those young boys. Can’t even imagine the visual that haunts the now 13yr old.

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[dobro]

“We’ll forgive me for trying to discuss it rationally.”

“Until we have a government that so many don’t distrust (if that’s even possible), I don’t have an answer that will satisfy you.”

Where in the “rationally” part are any solutions offered that could actually accomplish the goals of legally enforceable ownership/liability laws for guns?

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[dobro]

“As far as the “right” you say doesn’t exist in the second – it clearly states “the RIGHT to keep and a bear arms shall not be infringed”

How about a Constitutional pop quiz? Here’s the question…what does the rest of the 2nd Amendment say?

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[dobro]

“A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined…”

Question #2- we know what “armed” means. What does “disciplined” mean?

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[935]

Yes,I know the full text of the 2nd says: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”…

Would you like to rehash the placement of the comma? The capitalization of the word “Miltia”? The word “regulated”?

Which tired old Anti argument would you like to use?

All of the above a settled law. Most recently with the Heller decision of the Supreme Court:”… that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense…”

As far as the discipline comment, you are absolutely correct to question that one:-) in the days of Washington, I think discipline meant something different than it does today. Whatever that is,I’ll leave to the philosophers.

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[JTB]

935, that’s one of the most famous misquotes attributed to Washington. Strange you’d still be using it since it’s been debunked so thoroughly. Check out the Mt. Vernon library for confirmation. What he said was,

“BE PREPARED FOR WAR TO PRESERVE PEACE

Among the many interesting objects which will engage your attention that of providing for the common defense will merit particular regard. To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

ARMED, DISCIPLINED, INDEPENDENTLY SUPPLIED

A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies. . . .”

In the same speech he said,

“TEACH THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES TO KNOW AND TO VALUE THEIR OWN RIGHTS

To the security of a free constitution it contributes in various ways – by convincing those who are intrusted with the public administration that every valuable end of government is best answered by the enlightened confidence of the people, and by teaching the people themselves to know and to value their own rights; to discern and provide against invasions of them; to distinguish between oppression and the necessary exercise of lawful authority; between burthens proceeding from a disregard to their convenience and those resulting from the inevitable exigencies of society; to discriminate the spirit of liberty from that of licentiousness – cherishing the first, avoiding the last – and uniting a speedy but temperate vigilance against encroachments, with an inviolable respect to the laws.”

You will note he refers to being able to exercise your discriminative faculty, something I questioned about your original post and for which you have further demonstrated a deficiency. For god’s sake man, if you’re going to put something forward, at least take the time to determine if it’s accurate. That’s assuming you wish to be taken seriously.

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[935]

JTB – Why would you think me a man?

I do most certainly NOT wish to be taken seriously. Hence the “handle” and not my real name.

This forum is a fun place to read and visit from time to time. The armchair politicos here are in an echo chamber. It’s fun to watch you slobber over each other.

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[dobro]

“I do most certainly NOT wish to be taken seriously.”

OK!

“It’s fun to watch you slobber over each other.”

You’re not serious about that, are you?

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[JTB]

935. I suppose the posture you’ve taken from the beginning in this thread evokes my stereotypical notion of an uniformed, provocative guy. If that’s not the case, you may replace “guy” with “woman.” Otherwise, thank you for clarifying your intention.

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[dobro]

But back to the rational discussion…are there any gun enthusiasts here that can offer solutions that would actually accomplish the goals of legally enforceable ownership/liability laws for guns? This is where the responsible gun owners (the large majority they would have us believe)need to step up. Anybody?

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[HMC Rich]

I think we are off topic just a bit. A gun is one of the most effective tools to kill. That is what it is made for.

Could this tragedy have been prevented. Maybe.

Would you be yelling for the father and mothers head if the young man had decided to steal the family car and run over his friends and relatives?

The kid snapped. It is tragic. Would it not be better to attack this problem in a variety of ways? I am certain there are a variety of solutions that a majority can agree on.

There are laws on the books that prohibit certain types of arsenals to be used. There needs to be more laws regarding Mental Health. How about putting Officers there with metal detectors or even keypad entry systems in the schools? This should be paid for by the cities and not come out of education budgets

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[singularname]

Regarding the numerous condescending references to those “fearful” of the government, it’s not about fear but anger at rendering citizens helpless against crimes by other citizens and by those sporting their new snazzy taxpayer-funded militia knickers and tricked-out rides.

The reporting is collated at http://www.policestateusa.com/ (ultimately, Oath Keepers). If you don’t like the source, you can verify the accuracy at your favorite news outlet–I’ve found them to in fact be accurate. And right outta the gate, “Ferguson” and “SPD” are familiar to most (all?) of you. I’m just enough of a “nut” to still hold a spot of outrage about the Davidian Debacle. How many children were murdered there as a result of fed actions?

For every anecdote here about cousin/friend/nephew/et al., as well as the “86 school shootings since Sandy Hook” stat, I’ve got a separate anecdote for each one. Katrina. No fewer than 18 firearms illegally confiscated from my family alone by NOPD or National Guard at locations in their houses, on their property, or within their block; three returned last I heard. Two forced evictions at gunpoint 3 days after storm; 14 forced evictions as late as 2 months after storm (all but 2 the homeowner). Three family members among hundreds (number undetermined) restricted from entering Gretna at gunpoint. Three family deaths in or during the immediate aftermath of the storm, one from a good ol’-fashioned fist beating. Uncle on roof for 8 days, until the Canadians rescued him. Best we can figure, he had a shotgun laying on his roof next to him when the U.S. acknowledged him and rocked on by–died the following June of pneumonia, still “refugeeing” in Lafayette (the 1,900 number doesn’t come close). Four jailed for “seeming” suspicious–yes, it is suspicious to be wading waist-deep in oily water while hurdling powerlines. Want more? Cuz I got more. I find all of this to be equally insane to school shootings, the former being intentionally unplanned and systematically disorganized terror against citizens by elected servants in a natural disaster crisis, the latter resulting from deranged individuals and grossly irresponsible gunowners. (Which has me recalling: I admonished a gunowner on here a month or so ago because his/her laying-about weapon was stolen by transient movers he/she hired, and I was in turn soundly admonished by some of the same folks here who believe tighter controls are the answer in this mess. Can’t wrap my mind around that one.)

As to the original Q, seriously yeah. Arrest the parent now on a manslaughter charge just as cop Carile was. And why was that cop let off anyway? My recall is that the jury felt he’d already suffered enough. Boo-frickin’-hoo. The jury (was it a jury trial?) could have EASILY found him guilty–especially given the majority could be presumed to be some version of “anti-gun.” They could give this another go-round, especially since this father isn’t a cop.

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[JanS]

Here’s where I stand (I think). The father, as has been stated, is totally devastated. Jaylen was raised to respect weapons/guns/firearms, and I would bet that dad had no idea that his son would harbor ill will to these 5 victims (actually 6, if you count him. In a way he is a victim, too). They now know that Jaylen set them up, asked them to join him for lunch, and then just shot them. He planned it to be that way. While I’m not crazy about the term “snapped”, it seems that , yes, indeed, that did happen, and in a calculated way. His dad will have to live with knowing that his son stole a gun from him. I’m sure, if there are other children in the household, that dad will rethink storage of his guns now. It’s definitely a wake up call, but not a criminal offense.

This country has failed our mental health system, for sure, but was that even recognized in this boy. Sounds like he hid it well. Teenagers, starting about 13, go through crazy hormone changes. Perhaps this child simply couldn’t handle it. :(

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[HMC Rich]

JanS, a sad LIKE for your post.

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[JoB]

935

“I find it highly suspect that you have seen people walking around with machine guns.”

assumptions will get you nowhere

my brother owns them

and i have cousins who own them

i sensibly refused to get into a truck with one cousin who had his loaded machine gun parked in a rack in the cab of his pickup.

i grew up in ranch country in Eastern Oregon and could shoot well by the time i was 10. i still can.

I am more than familiar with firearms.

i don’t know how many of my immediate family members own guns because i have never asked them all..

but i am guessing that in my immediate family… husband, kids, brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews that the likelihood that most of them own more than one gun is pretty high…

i have seen pictures of family gatherings where the guns piled in the center .. a collection that would make a terrorist cell proud.. are surrounded by family members hoisting their beers.

admitted.. these gatherings are on rural family property.. but the pile of guns is still more than impressive in both it’s size and diversity.

and if you get into my first cousins… 52… and their offspring… the likelihood of owning multiple weapons goes through the roof… not to mention the likelihood that at least some of those weapons are military grade.. my family believes in military and civic service.

“This is the problem I have with the anti gun crowd – they really don’t know what they’re talking about.”

unless of course, they do..

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[JoB]

singluarname..

what happened in Louisiana after Katrina is a national tragedy on so many levels that it is impossible for me to even wrap my head around it let alone understand what that was like for those who lived through it.

to say that civil rights were thrown out the window is an understatement.

but.. the real failure in New Orleans was the lack of investment in the kind of public services that would have minimized the damage from that storm… and the downright obstructionism of local authorities in the rescue efforts.

investment in public infrastructure requires a strong government that will stand up to local interests …

you don’t get that with tax cuts and threats of insurrection :(

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[JoB]

JanS..

raging hormones are not a mental health problem

or much of a public health problem either

unless of course the kids with those raging hormones and out of control feelings have access to guns

then they quickly become both

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – if guns are so freely accessible and every teenager with raging hormones would use them givin the chance, I think our problems would be much greater than they are now.

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[JanS]

JoB..knowing my own child and her raging hormones at age 13, I’m with you on that. Usually the “brain damage” goes away by early 20’s :D Maybe this particular child simply couldn’t handle what was going on with him, I really don’t know. Sounds like he didn’t talk to anyone about it, though.

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[JanS]

Jd…first, not every home has weapons in it available to children. Second, most teenagers survive the raging hormones well, eventually. Your daughter is what? two years old? Just wait – lol It may not happen, but when it does? My daughter’s happened like electricity in the air when she turned 13 – lol. I just kept talking to her, every chance I could. It helped, and today we’re closer than ever.

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[Jd seattle]

JanS – I have no doubts about the hormones i will face in the coming years. I completely believe you there. I wasnt implying that they dont play a powerful role in the choices teens make. I just don’t think in most cases that hormones alone would cause a teen to take others lives along with their own. I would think we would see many more incidences of attempted killings with weapons other than guns. I may be wrong because I didn’t look for myself, but I read a lot of reports that were saying this kid was posting some troublsome things on Twitter. More than the usual teen stuff. I don’t know, this just my opinion based on my life experiences. I certainly don’t know what other people feel and go through as teenagers.

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[JoB]

Jd..

from what i have seen.. the stuff the kid was posting on twitter was the usual world just done me wrong stuff… which only has significance when viewed in hindsight.

what is different is that this teen and others had access to guns and decided to take those who done them wrong out with them.

without a gun that becomes far less possible

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[Jd seattle]

JoB – I just looked at his Twitter posts and what I saw would definitely concern me as a parent. I know it does not hint at what actually happend. I could see how others could chalk those up to teenage boy stuff but the parents should have seen he was having some troubles. Maybe they did and tried to help, we don’t know. I understand a gun is more effective at killing but I still would like to believe that our youth are not all one break up away from killing each other if they have the means to do so.

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