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October 28, 2008 at 6:01 pm #645370
andreaParticipantAmen mel! oh to be a student again in one of your classes…we need more teachers such as yourself!
October 28, 2008 at 6:01 pm #645371
JoBParticipantthanks mellaw6565 for being so rational…
now i am going to descend to the land of the cheap shot.. because .. well.. because i can.
hmmmm…
where have i seen this lately?
“manipulating people emotionally by playing on their sense of extreme nationalism “
no.. no.. it wasn’t the democrats.. they aren’t talking about nationalism…
oh.. yeah… it has something to do with all that flag waving.. doesn’t it…
and all that name calling… and all that real americans talk…
extreme nationalism…
Why that’s Sarah in action…
calling to the warriors for God just in case nobody gets her point.
October 28, 2008 at 6:02 pm #645372
JenVMembermellaw- had he bothered to put it like that, I think we would have listened. thank you for stating this in an obvious and unemotional way. This however doesn’t change my opinion of anyone who would quote Hitler or Coulter.
What it does make me realize is how this current administration has done this to us – the jingoistic patriotism after 9/11 – and anyone who doesn’t agree with you is “un-American”. Country uber alles, no?
October 28, 2008 at 6:08 pm #645373
mellaw6565MemberYes JenV – the attempt to label those who don’t agree with the Repub’s as “un-American” definitely gets to me too. That is a blatant attempt at manipulation of emotions and I think that those of us using our brains see right through it. For House to suggest that we are doing otherwise reflects poorly on him, not us.
Thanks for the compliments – I do try to present all aspects to my students and tell them not to stoop to being riled up by any one candidate or party – just think your way through it and stick to your intuition. (although Palin does make the hair stand up on the back of my neck – scary!!)
October 28, 2008 at 6:13 pm #645374
CaitParticipantI think that an educated person would have put it that way in the first place – but thank you Mellaw for the dose of sanity. Until you put more thought, explanation and acknowledgment into your Hitler quotes they simply are what they are – ignorant regurgitations. So quote Hitler WITHOUT such careful trepidation implies only that in my opinion.
October 28, 2008 at 8:03 pm #645375
acemotelParticipantMaybe the quotation was made to explain McCain’s strategy.
Appeals to FEAR (Muslim, socialist, terrorist), PATRIOTISM (pro-American, war hero, hockey mom)and GREED (taxes) are appeals to emotion, the R standard these days. I haven’t heard any appeals to reason from them. That seems to be reserved for Obama.
And by the way, it’s a new day in politics when a candidate doesn’t feel compelled to LIE and DISTORT to get votes.
October 28, 2008 at 8:49 pm #645376
GenHillOneParticipantI agree that mellaw has spelled out what we *think* House was trying to point out, and while I greatly appreciate her talent for analysis, I’m no less disgusted by the original comparison between Obama and Hitler. I wouldn’t define my reaction as horror, but rather disdain. There is no reasonable argument that can make me think either candidate (because this HAS gone both ways), belongs in the same breath as Hitler.
October 29, 2008 at 12:25 am #645377
JoBParticipantGenHillOne…
it’s just more of the same..
name calling and insinuations have always been the last resort for those who can’t actually back their arguments with fact.
October 29, 2008 at 1:19 am #645378
acemotelParticipantOctober 29, 2008 at 1:34 am #645379
JenVMemberJFC, ace- that’s disturbing. yeah, um, race is clearly not an issue in this election, right? but, then again- usually people who talk like that live in trailer parks, watch professional wrestling and believe everything the government tells them….like most republicans, in my opinion.
October 29, 2008 at 1:44 am #645380
CaitParticipantSNAP JenV!
October 29, 2008 at 2:39 am #645381
TammiWSMemberHouse: 1) The obvious, which is that someone that has bad intentions can easily sway the masses through emotions rather than concrete, fact based reasoning. In this Presidential campaign, Obama has done just that. He has put on a brilliant marketing campaign without any true substance….
If Obamas name werent in your statement above I’d have thought you were talking about Bush/Cheney post 9/11, the play to our emotions, “fact-based” WMD (not!) the brilliant marketing campaign that took us into the Iraq war….
October 29, 2008 at 2:40 am #645382
TammiWSMemberMellaw – thanks for a logical and reasoned explanation. Much appreciated. I wish I was a student too!!
October 29, 2008 at 2:42 am #645383
CaitParticipantWait, wait. Saying that Obama has no substance and saying that he has “bad intentions” are two different things. Can we make that little distinction before we go futher?
October 29, 2008 at 3:55 am #645384
TheHouseMembermellaw6565, thank you for articulating what I was attempting to get across, but was slaughtered by 98% of the “S” people (since that is apparently allowed) that post here. You are one of the enlightened ones on this board.
It’s laughable that I’m once again called a “racist” for simply posting a quote from Hitler, I’m called angry by others. I can tell that many of you are cut from the same mold and most likely are on here to over compensate for some other deficiency in your lives. This is most likely your only social outlet besides your “support groups”.
Once again, I am far from upset or angry. I am quite the contrary.
Unfortunately, debating over a blog is a long and arduous process and very difficult to convey how you are coming across. I look forward to the next meeting and actually discussing this stuff with you face to face. It’s a much different to back your words/argument when you’re in front of someone.
PS..To hopefully shut all you up, by no means do I believe Obama=Hitler. I was comparing how political leaders can persuade through emotions and stating that Obama has done the same as Hitler in using emotions. Once again, I do not believe for a second that Obama has the same intentions of Obama.
And to Beachdrivegirl, I truly liked meeting you but you’ve been drinking the Kool Aid of the people on this board a bit too much. I am very well aware of what Socialism is. Look up the Global Poverty Act that Obama and our POS Maria Cantwell Co-Sponsors and tell me how that is not Socialistic. You also need to listen closely to Obama and how many times he uses the term “Economic Justice”. Just what do you think that means?
Peace on all of you, except mella and HardCoreConservative.
October 29, 2008 at 10:23 am #645385
JanSParticipantDear Mr. House…let me introduce you to Gerry Kingen…you two would make a great pair, I think, and have lots to talk about, since you both like quoting Hitler so much.
Emotions? I believe the other faction is doing that and more..playing on emotion and fear.
Why is it that when someone doesn’t believe in exactly what you do, they’ve been “drinking the KoolAid”? Why do we all have to believe what you believe? How boring would that be? You have opinions, others have opinions. They may not agree, and so what? Come Nov. 05, no matter who wins, the world will go on, and I can guarantee you there will be no “magical” change come next January 20…not for McCain, not for Obama, whichever is sworn in…unless, of course, if McCain’s heart can’t handle the day, and then , boy, are we in for it. Yep, that’s a fear that the McCain faction didn’t count on…
October 29, 2008 at 10:27 am #645386
JanSParticipantand, darnit, Mr. House…why do you have to be so damned condescending in your comments. You can’t leave it alone, you always throw some little “gotcha” in there..”I can tell that many of you are cut from the same mold and most likely are on here to over compensate for some other deficiency in your lives. This is most likely your only social outlet besides your “support groups”.”
You can’t let it be, can you? No wonder people jump on your comments on here. Suffice it to say…you get what you sow.
Geez, I hate it when a nasty cold keeps you up at night…just makes one cranky as hell…
October 29, 2008 at 2:49 pm #645387
beachdrivegirlParticipantHouse, I absolutely disagree with your statement that Obama is a socialist. And if you have to believe that Obama is a socialist than you must admit that McCain is a socialist as well. They did both vote for the $700 billion financial bailout that is the most socialist action that has happened throughout this campaign. And the only way that McCain cannot be considered a socialist alongside McCain is if he is going to completely abolish the income tax. And last time I checked that wasn’t his plan. His plan was to continue the tax cuts for the top 1% of households that Bush gave. You do realize that the top 1% of households have never received such a tax cut since pre-depression in 1928???? Its asinine to believe that we can continue with those types of tax cuts and if you do believe that than you believe in selling out our country overseas?? Because each time we have to borrow money from overseas we are doing just that. Personally, that doesn’t seem very patriotic to me.
October 30, 2008 at 1:32 am #645388
JoBParticipantHouse, house, house…
here we have the pot calling the kettle black…
both sides are manipulating emotions.
the outcome of that manipulations speaks volumes about it’s intent..
on one side you have the us/them team that claims anyone who isn’t for the war in Iraq and against all abortion and pro MCcain/palin is somehow unamerican.
Bomb Obama? mimicking killing him? calling Obama unamerican? equating Obama with terrorism? Obama kills babies? The catholic church will excommunicate you if you vote Obama?
Those quotes from people standing in line in Pennsylvania for a McCain rally 2 days ago say it all. Fear/Hate/anger
You will be hard pressed to find similar footage for an Obama campaign since they are all too busy chanting Obama.. faces beaming.. talking about hope.
I think i will have my emotions manipulated by the Obama campaign… the outcome speaks for itself.
October 30, 2008 at 1:36 am #645389
GenHillOneParticipantHere’s the actual socialist party candidate, Brian Moore, on why Obama is NOT a socialist:
*credit to charlabob for link
November 1, 2008 at 11:51 am #645390
HeavyMetalConservativeMemberSocialist or not, Barack Obama sat in a church for 20 years where liberation theology was preached by his spiritual advisor. Their’s is not a moderate viewpoint and has its basis in Marxism. I do not believe every sermon Wright preached was bad, but some are very focused on that type of view.
Barack was a community organizer trying to help the less fortunate and was successful getting thousands of people to vote. Obama worked in the organizing tradition of Saul Alinsky. Rules for Radicals, not a moderate either (although not a liberal too).
Ayers, oh and the LA Times favorite Khalidi. Minor associations with known terrorist links. Not saying he was with them, but their paths did cross. Yes Khalidi and McCain crossed paths too, but I don’t think they were as close.
OK, there is a slim bit of evidence that these people, not moderate, might have had somewhat of an effect on Mr. Obama.
I am not damning him for this but you have to admit there is a small pattern here.
My thought is Mr. Obama has some socialist tendencies. Fine, it is a free country to think what you want, usually.
Spread the wealth around (whatever he said to Joe)is not usually said by capitalists.
Now, if he does try to change the constitution somehow then we will have a better idea of where he stands.
On other issues.
You know, some of this indignation is rather strange. There are examples of bad or distasteful people and messages from the Obama herd too. Rule 5 – Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. Thank You Mr. Alinsky. Not that I advocate it but distasteful messages, no matter how rude or innappropriate, are basically protected. We know the radical fringe is just that. I hope and pray everyone stays safe from wackos.
November 1, 2008 at 5:56 pm #645391
JanSParticipantHMC – it’s knowledge that McCain donated somewhere around #455,000 to Khalidi’s organization in the past. Does that constitute a connection?I’m just curious as to what makes a connection, and what doesn’t, in your eyes.To Mr. McCain, that might not be a lot of money, but to me it shows some support of Khalidi and what his organization was doing. And I don’t believe that McCain can have it both ways…OK for him, but condemn Obama’s connection to Khalidi.
I guess I feel that the campaigns need to totally vet what they’re gonna put out there, and you’d better be squeaky clean yourself before you jump on the other guy for something. They all have a past, and these things have nothing to do with anything, in my book.
I want to thank you for your intelligent summation of things about how YOU feel, what is forming YOUR decision, both in this thread, and in the McCain economics thread.While we may not entirely agree with you, it’s not just quoting some source and talking in generalities. Appreciate it. Makes for a better discussion.
November 1, 2008 at 6:55 pm #645392
JoBParticipantHeavyMetalConservative…
yes, Reverned Wright occassionally preached what you are calling liberation theology.. in the middle of the poorest blackest district of Chicago…
but my guess is that your understanding of liberation theology… as preached by Reverend Wright.. is a far cry from the understanding of those who attended.
Liberations theology as practiced in that church had an intense focus on education for it”s children… and housing… and medical care… and yes.. politics… and was highly effective at all of them.
Reverend Wright’s”liberation theology” stirred his parishioners into social action that made a huge difference in his community… and caught national attention as a model for activism.
Obama sat in the same church for 20 years…with a highly respected pastor who was a guest at both republican and democratic white houses… because the political focus of that church was actively courted by both parties.
let’s show some perspective here.
Where else would a young south side politician attend church?
And at least he did attend church and professes a deep and genuine love for God. He got a Christian education in his church that matters to him in addition to the political education.
Not that it matters to me… he could be muslim.. or hindu.. or jewish.. or buddist for all i care…
but it is very clear that he isn’t a hypocrite when it comes to his faith. His faith is genuine.
Whereas John McCain uses churches primarily for political advantage. Who did you say his personal preacher was?
Barak Obama worked as a community organizer in the tradition of the democratic party.. which happens to be based on the tradition of Saul Alinsky… which is the primary model for all community organizing including that done for the republican party.
OMG.. are republicans socialists? historically, they have promoted some pretty socialistic programs.
PSHAW
Barak Obama actually worked his way up the political ladder.. learning politics from the community level up.. which has come in very handy for him in this election.
John McCain on the other hand had his new rich wife buy him a house in a district where he had inside information that there would be an open seat and spent his way to success.
Have you ever wondered what kind of politician John McCain would have been if he hadn’t started well financed and well connected at the top?
You are an intelligent guy… you know all this is nothing more than labeling.
Obama is so centrist that it makes some of us social democrats more than a little uneasy to vote for him.
Let’s talk issues.. not labels.
November 1, 2008 at 8:56 pm #645393
AnonymousInactiveInteresting to note about religion. You have always been able to order and listen to Rev. Wright’s sermons for yourself, in their entirety. ABC News listened to dozens and dozens before they found the soundbites for release that so many found offensive.
We may be able to apply the same scrutiny to John McCain pastor, once he makes up his mind, which denomination, and which church he goes to.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/17/mccain_overall_faith_whats_important/
I imagine using such a fine tooth comb in any congregation could find offensive materials. On a local level, the lovely Mars Hill often falls into that category. Especially with some of their more anti-gay, anti-woman, pro-spanking infants sentiments. It made national news in fact, when Mark Driscol blamed the wife for Pastor Ted Haggard’s male prostitute, drug problem. If only she had taken better care of herself so her husband would have found her more appealing. Nice.
And guess what the conservative members of the church state on this forum in response to these controversies? “Mars Hills does so many wonderful things in the community and in our lives. We disagree with some of their teachings, but the overall message is biblically sound and we support that message.”
Interesting that the courtesy of selective approval doesn’t extend to other preachers.
November 2, 2008 at 6:56 am #645394
HeavyMetalConservativeMemberHello JoB. I find your posts extremely interesting. Sometimes you seem of two minds. Very interesting. I had a wonderful response and then I hit a link provided by JT and blew it all out. When will I ever learn.
Mr. Wright’s church can and should do whatever it wants. They can say and do what they want and I want them to, but I sure don’t have to agree with some of it.
Mr. Obama should be commended for his religious belief. That was never in question in my mind nor was it stated in a derogatory way. What is questioned is some of Reverend Wright’s message that he preached. Getting people to band together for good is wonderful. Gathering in fellowship to ease pain and suffering is fantastic. Letting people know they are not alone is healing. Taking control of your situation with your fellow Christians is empowering. But, blaming people for your misfortune is not a good path to harp on nor is it productive. Differences can be pointed out. There is no harm in that, usually. I think Mr. Obama transcends some of that message. I also think he is a politician.
Mr. Obama’s spiritual advisor is a leader to many. In some way he has made a difference in the man’s life.
Now, tell me how John McCain uses churches for political gain? Even JT’s article showed that his pro-life stance was at odds with his decision on embryonic stem cell research. (I had to get that in since, that was the article that blew out my better post!)
Labels, I just acquired my new Brother Label Maker. Rich Wife! Cindy! Why Yes she is. Is that a problem? Beer distributorships are very lucrative at times. Hey lets call a truce and have a Kegger!! Cindy and John can pay for it.
Patronage is a part of both political parties. The founding of the Democratic party used patronage to get people in positions of power and to not have to deal with slavery. Patronage, why yes it happens. Republicans are guilty as charged. Some might call it networking.
I believe more than any other candidates in recent memory that these two men are better than most of their predecessors. We know John McCain was tortured to the point that he wanted to commit suicide. He could have left his imprisonment early but didn’t. He is a man of integrity and leads a solid life. I also had a roommate with a somewhat similar background as Mr. Obama. The racial pain was devastating at times. I respect these individuals.
I will also make fun of them and the process at times. I think they can take it. I wonder if some of you can take it. I don’t mind being wrong once in awhile, but at least I will admit it , well usually :)
A person running for public office must be a bit of a lunatic. I mean really, why go through the hassle. But the reality of it is these guys seem to think they can make a difference. Good.
Back to business. About Mr. McCain getting into politics, could not the same thing be generally said about Mrs. Clinton in New York. You are right labels can be silly but then again sometimes they are needed to point out certain items.
I don’t agree that Obama is a centrist. If he is then that is a very wide group that would include a ton of Republicans too. Not Conservatives mind you. We are just better and richer than you. Isn’t that what you expect to hear? Not True, well maybe true sometimes. Well, you pick. I don’t feel like offending anyone at the moment.
But if Obama is centrist then let me be far right. We disagree. McCain has said that he was a Goldwater Conservative, but he is not. McCain does have a fairly conservative voting record. McCain and Giuliani were more moderate than most of our other choices for the Republican Nominee. I wouldn’t call McCain a Centrist either.
After pondering a moment I bet both men have some centrist tendencies. HHMMMM. But there are stark differences. I like John.
JT. You’ve been naughty. Nobody escapes the Spanish Inquisition. Give him the comfy Chair!!! HA HA HA HA.
Chill Dude (not knowing your orientation “Dude” has become a term for males and females.) I think Dude might have come from the russian word Dudeshka (meaning Grandfather). I’m guessing. I think I shall look up its etymology. Hmm, Fastidious Man originally in New York in the 1800’s. I like my version better. Revisionist History! Oh you got me!!! Sorry.
I didn’t like what you said in your post, but I found it interesting and thought provoking. That’s the beauty isn’t it. I don’t dislike you for posting it.
The nice thing about this country is that you can choose or not choose to go to whatever institution you want. Unless your a criminal and get tossed in the big house. You are exercising your right to point out the weakness of individuals or churches that you disagree with. OK. Do it. Will it be productive? That is for each of us to decide, isn’t it. I see Pastor Leskovar puta his two cents in with the West Seattle Herald, there is no reason peoples of opposing view shouldn’t either.
I find it interesting, and sometimes sad, when people go GOTCHA! when somebody fails to live up to the principles that they feel or others feel they should. So, the person was human. Yes, they are hyprocites sometimes. They are weak. I know I have been. I have been guilty of saying GOTCHA too, and try to do better next time.
Reverend Wright beleives in what he preaches. Good for him. Good for most of us. Diversity of opinion. Amen Brother, can I have a Halelluah. You notice when he went on his speaking tour he did not change his story. That takes guts. I have to respect him for that. Although disagree with some of his sermons, the man was not a sell out. Others in my party might differ.
I do not want all of us to be in the same mold or mindset (but you should be a conservative. No. well I tried). We should be able to agree or disagree, but to make it in a condescending way isn’t … well. . . very Christian. Thank GOD we can be forgiven. Or if you don’t believe in God it shouldn’t matter what any religious topic is. I do wish a few more people in West Seattle had my mindset but then they would be unhappy urchins living off the dregs of society.
So, bottom line. I respect your initiative to post. I may disagree with what you have to say, but you have every right to put forth your opinion.
My opinion is that Obama is left of center with some aspects in socialist tendencies. His relationships favor current democratic philosophy more so than republican dogma, I mean philosophy.
His voting record is very liberal and I believe that reflects his life experience and views. I do however, get concerned that he expressed opinions that the Warren court did not do enough to change the power of the constitution. That my friends wreaks of not accepting the forefathers proposal of limited government. FDR started thinking that way too. Fortunately calmer minds prevailed. I stand by what I say. Thank You for your time. See you at the Keggar. Hey my label maker still works. Seattlites your designated driver will be Mr. Barry Obama. The rest of the state your driver will be John McCain. Please be safe.
The following message was meant to be slightly flippant and somewhat serious. Please make any complaints to the OWL Party in Tacoma.
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