Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Traffic Circle Question
- This topic is empty.
-
AuthorPosts
-
October 20, 2015 at 4:46 pm #818652
clulessinwsParticipantThis morning I approached a traffic circle according to rules listed on the SDOT page linked below (yield to the right). As I approached the circle, a bronze Accord was on my right so I let them go. As I entered the circle, a red mini cooper was coming up behind the Accord maybe 25 feet away/not near the intersection so I entered the circle. As I did, the mini cooper layed on the horn. WTH?
.
So, should anyone entering the circle yield to people on the right who have not made it to the intersection? It was very low speed, just a few MPH. It was not like our cars were close. And since when did we lay on the horn at neighbors?
http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/sdotfaqs.htm#nto
Under State law, when two vehicles approach an intersection with no stop signs at about the same time, the driver on the left shall always yield to the driver on the right. This is also true for intersections that have a traffic circle or all-way stops.
October 20, 2015 at 4:56 pm #828491
clulessinwsParticipantI know this has been discussed here before but I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. I don’t think the search option works on the forum.
October 20, 2015 at 7:10 pm #828492
KBearParticipantThe way traffic circles are supposed to work, and the way they work in other places, is that you always yield to traffic that’s already in the circle. Washington law confuses the issue by saying “yield to the right” applies to traffic circles, since traffic within the circle should always be approaching from the left (unless they’re driving the wrong way around the circle.) People get so hung up on “yield to the right” that they forget the first part of the law: “when two vehicles approach at about the same time.” If someone is already in the intersection, then they were first and would have the right of way.
October 20, 2015 at 7:28 pm #828493
PLSParticipantSpot on, KBear. The car in the circle (the intersection) has the right of way. Always. The hard part, as you allude, is determining if 25 feet behind that first car is “at about the same time.” I’d say not, however I have started just hanging back and letting people on the right, even if I’m clearly there first, go ahead. My knowing and following the regulations is meaningless if the other driver is not going to. Better to be safe.
I’d love to see a YouTube “Driving in West Seattle” primer for people to cover traffic circles, unregulated intersections (i.e. no stop signs), parking, residential speed limits and other continually problematic areas of driving around here. Ignorance is not bliss for the rest of us and intentional violation is dangerous for all.
October 20, 2015 at 8:02 pm #828494
clulessinwsParticipantThanks K and PLS. You’ve confirmed I navigated correctly.
.
It’s so frustrating to be honked at for driving legally. With all the road rage common these days, honking is a ballsy move even if the honker is in the right.
.
PLS, good Idea on the YT video. I chose my sceen name based on all of the clueless things I see going on in WS. Glad to know I am not alone in noticing things.
.
And yeah I hang back too, just like you, better safe than sorry but in this case the mini wasn’t close enough to warrant it.
October 20, 2015 at 10:05 pm #828495
datamuseParticipantI can say that the driver who decided to pass me on my bike by going the wrong way around the traffic circle while I went the right way was definitely doing it wrong.
October 21, 2015 at 8:22 pm #828496
PLSParticipantYikes, DataMuse – that’s completely irresponsible! I hope you rang your bell at them! :-)
I was thinking yesterday (while driving around a traffic circle no less) that I may have been too broad in saying the car in the circle ~always~ has the ROW. It’s really more about the simultaneity of the vehicle arrivals and not so much who’s in or out of the circle.
A good way to judge it, Clueless, would be to take that same situation with the Mini and remove the traffic circle. Would you have yielded to the Mini then? If it was close enough you would have, the traffic circle shouldn’t have changed that. If it was not that proximate than you were correct to go ahead.
I have noticed this situation before and realize that some people think they are grandfathered into right of way by the car in front of them. Say you are going West and two cars are coming from your right, going Southbound. S1 arrives at the same time as you do and S2 is 25 feet behind it. You should allow S1 to proceed, then S2 should allow you to go as you were at the intersection before they were. What happens though is that S2 often seems to think that as long as you are stopped for S1 they get to go too!
October 21, 2015 at 9:47 pm #828497
clulessinwsParticipantYou summed it up nicely. Thanks.
.
The driver I encountered yesterday looked old enough to know better unless they just started driving in their early 50s. They weren’t 16 and just starting out. I’ve been honked at by those kinds of drivers and it doesn’t phase me as they are new.
.
It leaves me wondering what has changed in West Seattle in the last few years? I have lived here “a long time” and never remembered such hate from fellow “neighbors” on the residential streets. Are people feeling squeezed by development and the worsening traffic? I think even the law states one cannot use their horn unless it is to avoid an accident, but it is so commonplace now.
October 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm #828498
PLSParticipantGreat point about getting squeezed. It does seem more stressful to drive around here these days.
Oh and this one will be my new focus – parking against the flow of traffic (eg on the left side of a two way street) in a residential area. It’s forbidden.
October 21, 2015 at 10:37 pm #828499
Wes C. AddleParticipantWho knows if these were even neighbors though? I also agree that you have the right of way here, but I did find one comment kind of strange. The one where you talked about the dangers of honking a horn. I’ve never seen people so reluctant to use horns as I have in the PNW. Maybe that’s why we have so many bad drivers? Nobody ever honks at them. I know in my travels to the midwest and east coast, horn honking is a lot more common. In Asia it’s horns constantly and when someone honks, people get out of the way and wave, they really are too nice over there ;)
October 22, 2015 at 3:08 am #828500
dcnParticipantRecently, I passed a driver stuck behind a left-turner at an intersection. I believe this is legal and smart–why wait behind someone turning left when there is room to go around on the right? However, the driver I passed was angry enough to go around the traffic circle at the next intersection the wrong way (on the left side of it) so that he could pass me, honking as he did so.
.
I have seen an increase in rude and reckless driving in recent months. I wonder if this is the result of an increasing frustration with traffic in this city. It doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it might help explain it.
October 22, 2015 at 4:36 am #828501
angelescrestParticipantTry walking in the early morning and crossing at a roundabout. Yesterday, 6:30 am, a woman I recognize in a blue BMW SUV decided to go around the roundabout on the opposite side!!!! just as another car was coming from the opposite direction. Wtf? Why would one suddenly go the wrong way around? I can guess. And i was about to cross the street! Most people don’t even look, but I have never seen someone go the wrong way around (unless making a turn…)
October 22, 2015 at 4:03 pm #828502
PLSParticipantDcn – you are correct that passing on the right was probably legal (see below) but was it advisable? I can see doing that if you were directly behind the left turner – but passing two cars? How can you be sure about surroundings, pedestrians, traffic ahead, etc?
I think we could all do with a little deep breathing now and then. So you have to wait 5 or 10 seconds while the car in front turns left. Take a look around at the fall colors and be grateful.
From the Seattle Municipal Code:
11.53.320 – Overtaking on right when overtaken vehicle is turning left.
The operator of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle when the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway. (RCW 46.61.115(1)(a))
(Ord. 108200, § 2(11.53.320), 1979.)
11.53.340 – Overtaking on right upon multiple lane street.
The operator of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle upon a roadway with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two (2) or more lanes of vehicles moving lawfully in the direction being traveled by the overtaking vehicle. (RCW 46.61.115(1) (b))
(Ord. 108200, § 2(11.53.340), 1979.)
11.53.380 – When conditions safe.
The operator of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway. (RCW 46.61.115(2))
(Ord. 108200, § 2(11.53.380), 1979.)
11.53.400 – Further limitations on overtaking and passing.
Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the operator of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle. (RCW 46.61.235(4))
October 22, 2015 at 5:51 pm #828503
JTBParticipantDcn, I think what you did is risky. It’s not what is allowed for in the regs unless the second vehicle was also signalling a left turn.
One thing I notice when drivers pass to the right of left-turning vehicles is that most don’t signal the lange change; they just do it. It’s possible the driver you annoyed was intending to do that but felt that you cut them off. Of course that’s still no excuse for their reaction.
October 22, 2015 at 7:52 pm #828504
SueParticipantWes, re: horns – I’m from New York City originally, home of the happy horn blowers. :) It was all I could do to reign it in when I moved here. I’m not hesitant to blow it when necessary. But I’ve noticed that people don’t even want to beep them when an accident is imminent, and it makes me wonder if people are oblivious, or just being foolish.
Example: I was on I-5 one evening, driving home from north Seattle. I wanted to move to the lane to the right of me. I signaled, and then I looked in my mirrors, then turned my head, and saw no one there. I started to move into the lane. Then I suddenly saw in my mirror the person who apparently had been in my blindspot, and who I was about to hit. And they never beeped their horn! I had to quickly swerve out of the way to not hit them. And they never once seemed to react and definitely didn’t beep. Did they even see me there? This would be the ideal time to beep a horn. But nope, let’s be polite and pretend the horn doesn’t exist.
However, I do notice something new (for this area) which is the retaliatory beep. Sometimes I’m driving through an intersection, and someone comes charging toward me on the cross-street, to the point where it looks like they’re about to blow right through a stop sign and hit me. I hit my horn (not crazy beeping, but one-time beep) because they don’t even stop until *after* the stop sign. Then they beep back at me as if to say “f*** you.” <shaking my head>
October 24, 2015 at 1:21 am #828505
dcnParticipantI’m not sure what some of you were picturing with my description. Risky? Not seeing pedestrians and surrounding traffic? Deep breathing and enjoying the scenery instead of driving? It makes it sound like I was in a huge hurry and went flying around the stopped cars without slowing by swerving up onto the sidewalk to take out pedestrians while I did so.
.
So…it actually played out more like this: as I approached the intersection, I saw that the front car wanted to turn left. The car behind him didn’t have his signal on, but I also find that many people do not ever signal their intent to turn, or they wait until they are actually in the process of doing it.
.
Since there were cars coming from the opposite direction, and it is a short green light cycle (with a much longer red light cycle), I slowly went around to the right and passed them. I believe most people do this when they are in this situation because I see the maneuver daily. Otherwise, you run the risk of missing the light while you are unnecessarily waiting behind someone.
.
I could see everything, including whether or not there were pedestrians. Although, pedestrians should not be crossing against the light in front of cars going either straight or turning left, so I’m not sure why that was even mentioned.
.
My guess is that the stuck driver was angry at being stuck. Maybe the front left-turner didn’t signal until the light turned green. Unfortunately, I also find this inconsiderate signalling at the last second behavior to be common. So, when the stuck driver was able to get through the intersection, he sped up to catch and then pass me.
.
So, deep breathing on the forums may also be in order. If you happily wait behind left-turners because you do not feel comfortable going around them, then that is great. I won’t criticize it. I personally find it an unnecessary delay if there is room to go around, whether or not I am in a hurry to get anywhere. That doesn’t mean that my driving is any less safe.
October 24, 2015 at 10:55 pm #828506
JTBParticipantdcn, I do the same maneuver you described periodically. I believe it is risky because it falls outside of regs and leaves you wondering how other involved parties see the rules of the road. So I go through the thought process you describe as my risk mitigation with particular attention to the “stuck” driver who could decide to go around without signaling.
It seems to me that not thinking along the lines to mitigate the risk would make the maneuver reckless rather than risky.
Breathing in, breathing out, going with the flow.
October 26, 2015 at 3:41 pm #828507
JeanineParticipantI was behind a cop that pulled around and passed a left-turner at westbound Morgan & 35th a few days ago. Seems legit.
October 26, 2015 at 5:27 pm #828508
PLSParticipantMy apologies to DCN – your original comment did not mention the light. As it was a controlled intersection (light) I think that changes the dynamic so I’d have no problem with you going around the left turner and the other car. I pictured a residential / uncontrolled intersection with more variables. At such a juncture you could, indeed, have pedestrians affecting your path but at a light, I agree, it’s less likely. At a light if there is room it’s reasonable to go around them and through the green light.
I DO think caution is still very needed as there may be oncoming cars turning left across your path and they’d not expect to see you slipping out and across the intersection necessarily if it’s not a clear two lanes.
I didn’t mean to sound trite, telling you to breathe and see the leaves – just a reminder to us all that we can often wait a few seconds as so many accidents are caused by impatience.
November 1, 2015 at 2:43 am #828509
tttParticipantAt a perpendicular unsigned intersection, yeild to the right. At a round about (circle) yield the the cars in the circle already.
November 1, 2015 at 3:22 pm #828510
redblackParticipantdcn said, My guess is that the stuck driver was angry at being stuck. Maybe the front left-turner didn’t signal until the light turned green.
when i learned to drive, i distinctly remember being told that if you can’t see the wheels of the car in front of you touching the pavement when you’re stopped, you’re too close.
…and precisely for that reason. what if the car in front of you stalls? are you going to back up? why not prevent yourself from getting into that situation in the first place?
in other words, the stuck driver had no one but himself to blame for being stuck, regardless of when the person in front of him decided to signal.
November 1, 2015 at 8:52 pm #828511
redblackParticipantttt: yield to the right, yes, but only when two cars will arrive at the intersection simultaneously.
if it’s clear that the car approaching from the left will enter the traffic circle or uncontrolled intersection first, then the car approaching from the right should yield.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.