resources for challenging dogs

[Robindianne]

JoB, I was just thinking about you and your dogs. I’m glad you are having success with packworks. Were you comfortable with their treatment of your dogs?

Share This

[JoB]

Yes, i was very comfortable with their treatment of my dogs. there were times when i felt their treatment of me was a touch condescending (some people feel they have to repeat their point endlessly to drive it home) but i was very comfortable with their treatment of my dogs… and perhaps the repetition was necessary. i certainly remembered it:)

if you would like to contact me personally to talk about the dogs and/or this trainer, feel free to contact the webmaster to get my email. i will send her an email asking her to release my info to you.

i would be thrilled to talk with you about our mischievous and challenging little pets.

Share This

[BB]

Jeff Tinsley (Sound Animals) knows how to deal with aggressive dogs. He has even trained bears for movies. He is a West Seattle guy and extrodinary with dogs.

Share This

[JoB]

Jeff is a great guy…

and we attended his classes…

and had him over to the house to consult…

and… he believes in Yuki (the people aggressive dog) as much as we do…

but for this aggressive dog.. we got more help from packworks…

and we got strategies that are working for our dog aggressive shiba.

I am not suggesting packworks for every owner of a dog they consider aggressive… although if they can help us do this with these two.. it may be a good investment…

but i am definately suggesting packworks when you have reached the point you think your only option might be putting the dog down.

That one (long and somewhat expensive) training session has turned a major corner for us and restored both harmony and hope.

for those who love the more difficult of dogs.. that can be a life saver.

Share This

[rs261]

Jeff Tinsley is a horrible trainer for truly problem dogs in my opinion. Best person we’ve found is Dr Seibert

Dr Seibert, Animal Behavior Consultants, Mountlake Terrace, 425-486-2385.

Dr. Seibert received her Bachelor of Science degree from Indiana University, and her Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree from the University of Tennessee in 1994. After three years in general veterinary practice in New York, she returned to school to pursue Master’s and PhD degrees in psychology from the University of Georgia. She also completed a residency in clinical behavior, and is one of 37 behavioral specialists board-certified by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. Her research has focused on psychopharmacology in behavior practice, parrot behavior problems, feline housesoiling, and canine noise phobias. Dr. Seibert currently offers behavior counseling at the Veterinary Specialty Center, a multi-specialty veterinary referral center in Lynnwood, WA. She also teaches animal behavior to veterinary students at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine.

Dr. Seibert, the only veterinarian board-certified in animal behavior in the Seattle area, provides behavior services for referring veterinarians and pet owners. She treats behavior problems in a wide variety of species, manages cases requiring psychoactive medications and offers preventive behavioral counseling.

We have a rescue thats lab/sheppard mix, and sweet as can be to us, but suffers from past abuse issues.

Share This

[rs261]

Dr. Seibert, the only veterinarian board-certified in animal behavior in the Seattle area

for emphasis….THE ONLY.

In this state anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. (Much like Interior Designers…who in most states need to actually get an education for Interior Design, not just pick out some colors, or sell some furniture…but thats a different rant)

Share This

[JoB]

rs261..

it’s funny.. i heard the extended version of the rant you didn’t go into from Gretchen at Packworks:)

They do train police dogs locally and for the german obediance course trials…

we are saving Dr Seibert and medication as a last resort… if we have to go there.. we will.

Thanks for the heads up tho… what i found when i started this thread was that those of us who take on the harder rescue cases have a really difficult time finding resources…

boarding.. grooming… vets… training…

and when one of our resources fails to handle our dogs.. the most common advise is putting the dog down.

i knew there had to be more out there.. so i have kept looking…

Share This

[rs261]

Honestly we thought about packworks…but I dont think it would work for our dog, from reading the site, it seems they might be a little heavy handed for us.

maybe I’m wrong in that, I dont really know as we didnt try them. We went to Dr Seibert, stayed off medication until things got truly out of control for us and we feared for the safety of others, children, elderly, visitors.

Share This

[JoB]

I don’t know what Packworks did for our dogs… i can only tell you what they did for us.

They helped us understand what we could do to signal to our dogs that we were in charge when they hit triggers.

and that has greatly altered our dogs behavior.

it hasn’t solved the problems.

I still don’t know what mochi would do with a dog if she wasn’t diverted…

and.. I still don’t have people in to my house and am unable to invite anyone along on excursions if the dogs will be present. My grandchildren don’t come to the house… and the dogs are kenneled if we have visitors.

However.. solicitors don’t stay long with me holding back a lunging yuki:)

this is not the ideal solution.. at least not yet.

But i do see real progress with both dogs…

the biggest thing i see is that both dogs are looking to me before they act out now… and that wasn’t happening before.

the changes in the way we behaved were for the most part subtle… but they seem to have been effective.

I was an effective dog trainer before i met them.. i have trained abused akitas.. and that’s not an easy task.. but these dogs are as close to a wild animal as they get and i don’t think i truly understood the implications of that before i met gretchen…

nor did i understand some of the finer points about the way they had worked out their own pack issues… they divided responsibilities between them…

I may still have to end up with medication because i refuse to be isolated by my animals.. but for now we make progress and have hope.

the only place i found them heavy handed at all was with us… and my husband disagrees with me on that…

they were incredible with the dogs.

Share This

[JoB]

rs261.. if you want to talk.. please feel free to email me at joanne (at) brayden.org

i haven’t formed a west seattle suport group for people with difficult dogs yet ;->

but have been having some interesting email conversations with others who are dealing with these issues… including one dog owner whose success inspires me.

Share This

[rs261]

Training is mostly about training the people who care for the animals, I’ve learned that. Dr Seibert gives lots of literature for you to read, teaches you about diverting attention as well. I honestly think our dog is more mentally damaged then anything, she’s very smart, but will just go on instinct at random times. And really its extremely difficult for me to notice any triggers. Shes fine with some adults/kids, others she wants to bite their heads off. Body positioning goes from at ease to attack mode in a split second. Crazy. But, she’ll get better, its a constant job, but as long as you keep at it, things improve ever so slowly (medication is no miracle cure, it just helps “take the edge off” of the stressful situations). Even on medication, you still need to direct your dog and respond appropriatly to their posture/actions before anything happens.

Ahh, the joys of a rescue. Of course, our other rescue is absolutly wonderful, no problems at all!

Share This

[JoB]

feel free to email me any time…

what you are saying could be my yuki as easily as not…

and yes.. the joys of rescue… and yes.. i really mean that.. even with my little yuki kujo…

Share This

[power]

We adopted a puppy who was shy and aggressive and used Jeff Tinsley. He came to our house and came up with an individual plan to help her (and us). He was great and had excellent ideas on how to help her. She now greets people and gets lots of love from them – instead of hiding and trying to bite them.

Share This

[rs261]

All I know is his advice for my scared/agressive 3 year old dog was to jump out and grab it at unexpected times. If I did this, my dog would be tramatized by me, dogs need love and structure, especially when previously abused and “set in their ways”.

A puppy can still learn how to react appropriately to situations, 3 year olds are pretty set in their ways, especially when past abuse and poor socialization is involved.

If you’re a first time pet owner, with a new puppy, sure spend the money for Jeff Tinsley. If you actually have a problem dog whos older though, I recommend not ever wasting the time and money on him, some of his techniques will do more harm then good, and should NEVER be used.

I think most puppy training is about training the people how to train the dogs, this is not always the case in older dogs with histories of past abuse.

Share This

[Shibaguyz]

As you can probably tell from our nickname here, we have Shibas. More to the point, we have been working with socializing and basic training of Shibas for the past three years.

Our breeder, Leslie Engen of San Jo Shibas has been a GREAT help to us and we exclusively use Diane Rich of spokesdogs.com for our training resource. We have seen Diane do amazing things with broken animals and, specifically, with Shibas. She knows the mentality and temperments of Shibas inside and out.

If you are looking for other dogs to socialize your pack with, go to our website and contact us there. We can be found at http://shibaguyz.blogspot.com. There are links all over that page for our boy’s individual websites as well as pictures and all of the typical Shiba-parent stuff you would expect from Shiba fanatics like us.

We hate to hear that you are going through a rough time with your two Shibas but know your heart is in the right place trying to work so diligently with them. The fact is, with Shibas, you have to continue to work with them for the rest of their lives. And, socialization is EVERYTHING to keeping them mentally healthy.

Again, if you would like to contact us, go through our website and we’d be more than happy to meet up and meet your Shibas and see if they are a good match for socializing with our boys. We do this sort of work all the time… as a matter of fact, our breeder friend sends her pups home with us for weeks at a time to have them socialized and we take her current show dogs out and about for socialization outings all the time. It sounds like you are getting a lot of support here from this forum and that is really fantastic… we’ll just offer ourselves up as another resource in case you are interested.

talk to you soon…

The Shibaguyz

Share This

[JoB]

shibaguys..

i ws looking for this thread when you found it to let you know that we are the rpud housemates of two shibas…

i don’t know that our shiba guy is ready to meet others yet… tho he is now making tremendous progress.

just today we met my son for breakfast and yuki was in the back of the van… with the hatch up.. behind a screen… and of course he barked..

but at breaskfast we remarked that it was an almost normal excited bark.. not the “i am going t tear your throat out” bark.

we make progress!

Share This

[Shibaguyz]

It sounds like you are making some progress. If you would ever like to use us a a resource, feel free to.

Share This

[JoB]

shibaguyz.. your blog is down for work.. so please feel free to email me at joanne (at) brayden.org…

i would love to use you as a resource and alternatively possibly be a resource for you…

and as it turns out, i am just now trying to plan my urban garden and could use some input.

sorry about the wacky typing.. i am fighting a bug:)

Share This

[Shibaguyz]

JoB – it’s all up and running now. Not sure what was up with it being gone. http://www.shibaguyz.blogspot.com Definitely look up my post in the forums about the urban gardening. Looks like we’ll be running in to each other a lot!

Share This

[momofthreedogs]

#3–JimmyG—needs to stop watching the Dog Whisperer and understand that dogs need to be socialized. Dog DO need to have other dog friends.

For some great information regarding dog training and behavior, look here:

http://www.dogstardaily.com

Dr. Dunbar and his team are the best. He was the pioneer in Positive Reinforcement dog training and changed dog training as we knew it (Alpha rolls, choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, etc).

“The secret to a well-socialized adult dog is at least one walk a day and a couple of trips a week to the dog park. Try to find different walks and different dog parks, so that your dog meets a variety of different dogs and people. Socialization means training your dog to meet and get along with unfamiliar dogs and people. The only way to accomplish this is for your dog to continue meeting unfamiliar people and dogs daily. Praise your dog and offer a piece of kibble every time he meets an unfamiliar dog or person.”

from AFTER You Get Your Puppy by Dr. Ian Dunbar

As for local trainers, Jeff Tinsley is by far the best in Seattle. He has years of experience and can work with any problem your dog might have. He’s a nice guy who you can see truly cares about what he does.

Share This

[JoB]

I really like Jeff Tinsley and i send people i meet in the park who ask me about training to him all of the time…

but Jeff was in over his head with my little Yuki who had been so badly abused as a pup.

Our situation was unique in that i adopted two rescues with two entirely different sets of issues.. one with humans and the other with dogs… and they are shibas which complicates things…

but the truth is that we adopted two dogs that other people would put down as untrainable…

We had several very well respected trainers tell me that we had two choices.. medication or putting them down… and medication didn’t work for these two.

if we hadn’t found Packworks we would have put Yuki down…

even though Jeff Tinsley agreed with me that this dog had all the potential in the world… we weren’t making the kind of progress that would allow him to realize that potential and we weren’t finding resources .. at any price.. for a dog with the severe kinds of aggression problems he had… and no rescue would take him.

it has taken two years for Yuki to cuddle up next to us for a while before he goes to sleep in his crate for the night… but he does now. And he will sit with me (on leash) while i talk to other dog owners as long as i maintain at least 5 feet between us… and he will allow other people in his car without carrying on for more than a few minutes as though he would kill them if he could just get off his tether …

We still have a long way to go.. but i can see that we can eventually get to a point where we can include other people in our dog’s life…

we didn’t have to put him down.

and mochi.. i don’t know that we can ever trust her off leash around dogs other than yuki… but i can talk to other dog owners and their dogs with her tucked in a sit at my side…

we make progress… but it is very slow and some days it feels like we will never achieve our goals.

as more of us do the right thing by these dogs and take them into our homes, there is a greater need for resources for those who were so badly damaged by their past owners that they really do require specialized training and care.

it is possible that what packworks did for us was to reset our expectations… but whatever it was they did has made an incredible difference in our lives and the lives of our dogs. I can’t thank them enough.

I just want people to know that when they have exhausted what they think are all the available resources.. seen who everyone tells them is the best.. been turned away by the programs that say they help dogs with aggression issues and their heart is breaking because they don’t want to have to put their dog down.. there is still hope…

One of these days i hope to be able to introduce my dogs to you to prove it.. but i suspect that will still be a while:)

in the meantime.. i am always looking for people willing to come meet my yuki…

PM me if you are up to ignoring this little guy’s vocalizations.. which are impressive… while you share his space..

it goes without saying that he will be leashed and that you won’t be petting him any time soon.

Share This

[rs261]

I’m still not a fan of Jeff Tinsley, in my opinion he thinks he knows much more then he does. He can not handle problem adult dogs. He told us to spray our dog in the face with the old water bottle if she did something aggressive…this to a dog who was adopted 6 months before hand, had fear/aggression issues. Not a good idea.

Packworks, is probably the best option now, for any intensive training of owners/and dogs. Dr. Seibert is no longer in the area.

Thankfully our 2 rescues (1 on med) are doing great, we’ve gotten used to them, and they to us, and even with all of our issues we’re all dealing with things quite well!

Share This

[JoB]

rs261..

i think jeff is learning more about problem dogs as he encounters more people who are willing to take them on…

but it is a learning process… and more of us are taking on dogs that in the past would have been put down by their owners or rescue organizations.

i suspect the hardest thing for any trainer to do is to admit that the problems your dog is having are beyond their expertise and refer you elsewhere…

but since there is someone in our area who is willing to work with these dogs.. it would make a lot more sense to just refer them out.

i think it’s easy to hear a dog owner refer to a problem they are having with their pet and assume that problem is like a small problem you have had with your less traumatized pet…

i know i run into that with my illness.. people assuming symptoms are just those pesky things they deal with instead of real deal breakers…

it’s harder to realize that you wouldn’t have been called if the problems were that easy to solve. most of us who take on these pets have had more than a bit of experience with training pets before…

i am glad you are doing well with your rescues… my little shiba boy is curled up next to me as i type waiting patiently for me to put my shoes on so he can go somewhere…

Now.. that’s progress:)

Share This

[emily]

Just curious if anyone has tried Bark Busters? I’ve heard some good things about them, but it has always been third-hand. They apparently use the “Australian method” or something like that. The local trainer listed online is David Wiley.

If you’ve used them or have any knowledge about their methods, I’d love to hear from you. Our dog is relatively well behaved, but has some barking issues, sometimes refuses to come when called, etc…

Share This

[hopey]

It’s not in West Seattle, but Riverdog in Issaquah offers free behavior evaluations.

They will do private lessons, but they also have a program they call Training Camp. It’s kinda like a doggy daycare — you drop your dog off in the morning & pick them up at night, 5 days a week. But instead of the normal doggy daycare free-for-all, Riverdog’s trainers work with the dog during the day. Owners come in once a week for a consultation, to learn how to reinforce what the dog is learning at Camp.

Riverdog’s trainers are willing to work with dogs who are dog aggressive or people aggressive, though dogs with serious problems would need to be in the program for longer than three weeks.

They will do evaluations for anyone, and will give you advice in the evaluation about training strategies for your dog.

Disclaimer: I am currently an apprentice dog trainer at Riverdog. I’ve been very impressed with the quality of the trainers I’m working with there. I’ve also watched them rehabilitate a German Shepherd who mouthed a four year old girl. The transformation has been striking.

JoB, I don’t know if they’ve ever worked with Shibas, but I’ve only been there for a few weeks.

Share This

[Author]

Posts