austerity

[hooper1961]

JanS – I pay my employees $17.50 and $16.50 per hour.

JoB there is way too much by-catch in the so called safety net! By catch are all the able bodied and minded people not carrying their own weight that is not fair to those of us who work and pay taxes.

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[JanS]

how many positions do you have open…I’m betting some readers here would be interested. Do you take inexperienced people? I ask, because some may have had desk jobs, etc, that didn’t train them for what you do…but…a job’s a job, right?

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[JoB]

hoop

but you would take the net out from under everyone just because of those you think don’t carry their own weight.

how fair is that to those who paid their taxes until they could no longer work?

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[dobro]

First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.

Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?

First Collector: Plenty of prisons.

Ebenezer: And the union workhouses – are they still in operation?

First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.

Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I’m very glad to hear it.

First Collector: I don’t think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.

Ebenezer: Why?

First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?

Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!

Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?

Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.

First Collector: Many can’t go there.

Second Collector: And some would rather die.

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[redblack]

full disclosure, hooper. are you really mad at the unemployed?

or are you angry that you, as an employer, have to pay unemployment insurance?

’cause i have to tell you, if you’re mad at the unemployed, that’s pretty low.

but if you’re mad at the state, that’s just plain old miserliness.

we’re trying to run a society here. we’re not trying to pamper people who thought that they’d get rich running a business only to find out that it’s way harder than working for someone else.

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[TanDL]

I have a question, Hoop. If austerity does come about and the government checks stop and cuts are made to every government program, what do you see as the end game? What is your vision of the result of austerity and how does this make our daily lives better? What does austerity look like on Main Street?

Help me see what you envision for the future with austerity. Thanks.

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[hooper1961]

TanDL – interesting question.

The fist thing austerity would force is choices about how limited government resources are spent. For example a choice of either immunizing 1,000 children from polio versus spending the same resource on a kidney transplant for a person that elected not to have insurance. Money for both does not exist; you choose.

For us people we will all have to accept a modestly lower standard of living. The Country has been on a credit card binge for way too long.

redblack – i am frustrated with the government with extending unemployment benefits indefinitely. the construction industry has seen the brunt of the layoffs, and infrastructure in this country is in dire need of repair and upgrades. why in the heck does the government spend billions on extending unemployment when those same dollars can be spent on infrastructure that provides meaningful employment for many?

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[kgdlg]

I am sort of in awe that hoop chose a kidney transplant as an example here. I sincerely hope that this was just a coincidence.

Isn’t your world of black and white a great one, hoop. Does it matter that our corporate insurance world is far too expensive for working people to purchase on the “open market”? These are hard working employed people who can’t get insurance. So in your world, there would be a government body who says “yes” or “no” (no in your world) when life saving surgery is available. To me, this punishes the most hard working among us – those whose employers don’t provide healthcare but who work their butts off every day.

What hoop is arguing against is any kind of safety net at all, because there are a few among us that take advantage. It is punitive and it will cost more in the longrun via higher healthcare, crime and education costs. There is a reason we have a social safety net, it is called civilized society.

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[hooper1961]

kgdlg – health care can be purchased on the open market for a parent (50+) and child for $425/month. I anticipate it going up significantly again next year do to obamacare.

what i am arguing against is a safety mesh.

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[kgdlg]

Hoop, except if you have a preexisting condition, or genetic history of breast cancer, have been in a bad car wreck with lasting side effects, have a kid with autism, have a job like laborer that wears your body out at 50, and on and on and on. If you make 35k a year (17 bucks an hour) this is not something you can afford.

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[hooper1961]

kgdlg – so you want to foist it on the taxpayer? in 2014 obamacare will make it illegal for insurance companies to screen out bad risk people. this will cost low risk people significantly more $ that is not fare either.

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[DBP]

Boo hoo hoo! I’m so unhappy I was born in the richest country on earth and have to pay a teensy portion of my income to help sick people.

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[JanS]

now you’re pissing me off, Hooper…no one plans for a kidney transplant. Certainly not me. And I didn’t simply decide to not have insurance. I couldn’t afford insurance. $425/mo? Tell me your source…with a pre-existing condition from years ago, I couldn’t get insurance period. PERIOD. Got that? Capiche? And two years ago, an autoimmune disease…a rare one, turned my kidneys into scar tissue…and now I need a transplant…luckily, anyone who has kidney disease qualifies for a special Medicare program – even those under 65…and that will pay for my transplant that may come in 2013. Do I want all of this? Are you nuts? (don’t answer that). A kidney transplant is not an elective …it’s damned hard to come by. There are currently approximately 117,000+ people on the waiting list for a donated organ, and about 94,000+ are waiting for kidneys. Try it sometime. Try doing expensive dialysis three times a week, no matter what (including Christmas Eve, thank you very much). NO MATTER WHAT!!! Skip it because it’s intruding into your social life? Your work life? NO..because if you skip, you die. Now how about that.

You…healthy you…comfortable you, sit there and bitch and moan about money things – oh, poor, poor you! Grow a spine, grow a heart…and give it a break, at least for Christmas!!!!! And stop spouting off about that which you know nothing! I am not a bad risk…it was simply the luck of the draw. Would I wish it on you? No, I wouldn’t. But you would tell me that I should just go off and die because I can’t afford insurance. What a swell guy you are !

Merry Christmas !

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[hooper1961]

actually the US has a huge debt much of which is owed to chinese.

spending that simply divides up the pie versus spending that increases the size of the pie.

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[dobro]

Some people think they know more than they really do. In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. 8 percent. Not “much of which”

You’re a monster, Mr. Grinch.

Your heart’s an empty hole.

Your brain is full of spiders,

You’ve got garlic in your soul.

Mr. Grinch.

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[WSB]

The spammers seem to be taking the holiday off, God bless them every one, so in patroling the back end I find only this discussion. Particularly the line that makes me do a spit take, insurance on the open market for $425.

WHERE? AND FOR WHAT?

We pay more than $1100/month currently for “catastrophic” insurance for the three of us (two parents 50+ and teenager). There is NO coverage for routine checkups, or non-catastrophic anything, and the deductible is something like $4,000.

For the first time in about three years, somebody had to go to the doctor recently – earache – and we are paying full $100+ freight for the brief visit. Half the time I wonder if the $1100+ a month is worth it, but if GOD FORBID catastrophic illness or accident struck, we’d need it.

This is twice what the same plan cost when I signed up for it after choosing to leave the corporate world five years ago, and I keep reminding myself I am grateful that we can afford it. But there has to be a better way. You say we’d have to pay unbearable taxes to have socialized medicine? You suppose those taxes would cost my family MORE than the $1100+ a month we currently pay for NO health care beyond a little bit of peace of mind?

Not here to argue and in fact going offline for a while now, barring breaking news. Just reporting from the front lines of the real world. – TR, ever so thankful to be in extremely excellent health

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[JoB]

hoop

“kgdlg – health care can be purchased on the open market for a parent (50+) and child for $425/month. I anticipate it going up significantly again next year do to obamacare.”

and how exactly do you do that if your rent consumes the only stable income you have and you can’t work?

oh wait.. you can’t get insurance for that price either once you are diagnosed.

and why is the choice between funding one sick person over funding another?

How about we choose between funding health care for sick people instead of giving insane tax breaks to big businesses?

every time you talk about austerity hoop, you talk about taking from people who already have almost nothing..

not about taking from people who have had the most profitable years ever while everyone else suffered.

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[TanDL]

Careful Hoop… Christmas Eve dreams can be a real bear for Scrooges. :) Have a good Christmas or whichever holiday you celebrate!!

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[hooper1961]

WSB check into group health rates for a high deductible plan.

JoB I agree the truly wealthy ($500,000/couple and $250,000 single) ought to pay more taxes. Further reducing defense spending makes economic sense. Even doing these items is not enough. You either tax the middle class way heavier or reduce spending.

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[miws]

As I was catching up on this thread, I figured I’d post how happy I am that I’m currently enjoying a visit with my sister and brother-in-law. (And I am).

Then I read hoop’s comment about a kidney transplant.

Dude, whether you specifically mentioned that intentionally, or it was just the first example that popped into your head, you should have apologized to Jan for making the comment, once the correlation was pointed out to you.

Where’s the apology?

Mike

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[hooper1961]

miws thank you for the comment and had know clue, it was the first idea to my pea brain.

it is not raining go enjoy holiday lighting

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[redblack]

hoop: “group rates” (whatever you mean by that) probably aren’t available to WSB.

…unless you’re talking about the exchanges set up by obamacare.

so, back to the topic, in one thread you ask where the cuts are – even though democrats have offered far more in cuts than republicans. in another thread you claim that austerity is the way to go, but then turn around and say that the government should be spending money on infrastructure to put construction workers back on jobs.

first of all, the federal government only bails out states’ unemployment coffers when they are empty, and then it’s only for a fiscal year at a time. it only affects states whose unemployment insurance coffers are empty.

and, as i’m sure you’re aware, you can’t be on UI indefinitely.

secondly, what do you think the unemployed do with the unemployment checks that they get from the state government? horde it under their mattresses? put in swiss banks?

no. they spend it. it goes right back into the economy.

think about it: if business isn’t investing capital and hiring people, and that creates higher unemployment, then why shouldn’t the state pay out UI, prying some cash from the hands of business and putting it into circulation?

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[hooper1961]

i do not get group rate as I too am a very small business owner

spending on unemployment does not increase future wealth. i expect people to work for their money! this is why i support spending money on infrastructure!

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[JoB]

hoop..

spending on unemployment does keep some small business owners in business

and it is a whole lot cheaper than spending on homeless programs

anything that keeps people off the streets and in their homes long enough for the economy to recover contributes to future wealth

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[hooper1961]

JoB – i disagree. Anything that gets people off their butt and find work is a better approach. When I grew up I quickly learned to conduct my chores or not get dinner! I absolutely appose extending unemployment. It is unfair to those of us who work and in business owners who end up paying via higher unemployment taxes.

Like I have said I support increasing spending on infrastructure that provides meaningful employment and at the same time provides enhanced infrastructure.

Don’t forget one of the reasons the Roman empire collapsed is the failure to maintain and enhance infrastructure.

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