Anti-bag fee people in front of safeway..trying to get our signatures!!

[RS]

JenV- best quote ever: “I also dislike people, so shopping from home is nice.” I thought I was the only one who justified my Amazon Fresh usage that way! :)

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[JenV]

:) @ RS

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[walfredo]

The same people who are outraged by FISA and the government overstepping its authority to monitor citizens, are in favor of grocery bag taxes- the government clearly overstepping there bounds to mandate behavior in one county, specifically demonizing one industry.

If you look at this at all objectively- well its stupid. We are not taxing packaging- no matter how much, or how wasteful it is. We are not even taxing plastic bags as carrying devices. Just at grocery and convenient stores. My friends at Macy’s can quadruple bag my necktie in plastic and the government has no problem with that. I can buy my toy, lycra wrapped in plastic, bagged in 6 more things of plastic, and this is okay. But something as critical and far reaching, to even those in the lowest class- groceries- it is no longer acceptable to provide a free carrying device to people purchasing them. Even though #1-people clearly like them, and #2- industy has clearly decided it is a worthwhile expense to provide them to customers at no charge. And what really bothers me, is that it is a straight punitive penalty levied on one industry. They don’t get to charge for the bags, the get to be taxed for them. So there cost of doing business just rose, and that will either be offset by lower profits, or it will be paid for by consumers.

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[condodweller]

I repeat, composting is not an option for those in large apartment and condo buildings.

That dispan on the shelf would turn putrid and eventually be thrown in the garbage because there is NO PLACE for us to compost, even if we wanted to.

That mixed food waste thing does not work for all living spaces.

That is besides the point, I agree with walfredo and the petition is only to get the matter on the ballot so the citizens of Seattle can decide whether they want to impose this means of tax to force reduction of plastic bags, by grocery stores only. We are still a Democracy not under dictatorship.

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[ellenater]

Jen V,

“and also I don’t like people” LMAO!!

I like what Walfredo said, especially about packaging and retail. And I generally don’t have any faith at all in government. But I do feel it’s a start. It’s a dialogue and a good place to start. The tax sucks, but the dialogue is good. And I also think that a lot of people in this country do need to be educated and it needs to be personal and relevant. I get tired of how out of touch we are as a people. Also agree that those guys collecting names could care less about the issue. It’s all business to both sides… except for the people.

Those biodegradable dog bags are great but the lawn bags suuuuuuuuck.

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[mellaw6565]

So condodweller – where do you put your garbage? It seems to me that there are recycling and other receptacles at your condo? If not, there are other means for you to reduce your waste – including buying biodegradable bags for all of your waste.

Dictatorship – please. Get a grip. I’ve lived in a dictatorship; this is not even close. Americans are so spoiled!!!! Get a grip and start doing even the simplest of things for the earth – before my grandkids choke on your bags in the landfill.

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[Lucy]

I am on the fence about this issue, however I do use canvas tote bags for all of my shopping. At any rate… I certainly did NOT sign the petition today as I was leaving Safeway. Or even try to hear the petitioners arguments against the fee. Why? Because the person there was so incredibly rude, aggressive and obnoxious to me when he saw me going in with my canvas bags. Certainly not helping their “cause”.

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[walfredo]

Lucy-

I want to be clear- I’m absolute in favor of people choosing to use canvas bags. I also strongly support a businesses right to charge for plastic bags if they deem that important. I also strongly believe consumers should have the right to support businesses that take pro-active environmental stances like that. I have long been a fan of Ben and Jerry’s and don’t mind that .02 of my $1.00 goes to support the Rainforest when I buy Rainforest Crunch. I think its great, I made a conscious decision to do it, the company selling me the product made the decision that it was worthwhile to make that contribution to a charity versus profit. They received goodwill, free marketing, and strong differentiation from there competitors.

What I completely oppose, is the idea that my county officials in all of there infinite wisdom can mandate to both consumers, and businesses that they have a force-fed tax. That they do this without even attempting to solve a real problem, or educate, and stick the entire burden on one industry, and it happens to directly take the most proportional amount of money away from the middle and lower class families is pure crap.

I’ll even give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume they are well meaning in this venture. But they are dead wrong, and this should be voted on, and should fail miserably.

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[JanS]

condodweller..JoB was not talking about wet garbage…she was referring to what you recycle. I live in an apartment bldg., and we recycle (although I wish they’d pick up every week instead of every other). The dishpan on the shelf she suggested was for DRY recycling.

I don’t undertand the big deal here, but , then, that’s just me…I won’t be “taxed” as you all call it, because I will use my own bags. It’s that simple.

It’s like that commercial..pay me now, or pay me later…cutting back on your bag use isn’t all that difficult. And, for all the people who object who say they are for the environment, and say they recycle everything, I guess I’m cynical. If it were so, no measures like this would have to be taken, huh…

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[JanS]

oh, and I have a garbage disposal…and other wet garbage…well, it goes into the… garbage. I suppose I could be throwing the chicken bones off my deck, but I think the nice lady downstairs would object ;-)

Now..if they’d only make those “flex-bags” out of bio-degradable material….sigh…

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[JoB]

Walfredo..

so if you don’t think your county officials should be charging a fee for the use of plastic bags in the industries creating the highest percentage of use…

then you must be in favor of increasing your garbage rates to compensate for those who won’t choose to use reusable bags…

because that’s the real choice here. The bags are a problem. They clog up the recycling process and too many of them just end up in the trash.. where they will never decompose…

somebody has to pay for that. personally i would prefer that those too unenlightened.. or just plain too lazy.. cover the cost of disposing of all those bags…

condodweller…

food wastes are not the primary use of recycling… i put my food waste in a sealed ceramic jar until it goes to recycling… i only use the bins for cleaned glass, plastics and recyclable cartons… and paper.

if you must put food waste in the trash… the responsible thing to do is to use recyclable bags.. at least they decompose in the landfill.

i recommend the dog poo bags.. they are cheap and just about the right size for most food waste…

JenV…

ok. sometimes i slip and then i do my part for the fleece industry…

but i think my bigger contribution is buying the fleece made from the bottles that most people can’t seem to give up ;>

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[beachdrivegirl]

the tax is not a solution it is a “feel good” position that makes people feel

like they are making a difference.

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[mellaw6565]

BDG – it is a solution as it puts the tax/responsibility on the user of the bag. Why should I have to pay for someone else who wants to be irresponsible with the environment?

Plain and simple – it’s a user tax – no different than motor vehicle taxes that pay for roads that the motorists use. Someone who rides the bus doesn’t pay that tax.

If you don’t “feel good” about paying the tax to use the bags, then use your own. No one is forcing you to pay the tax.

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[JayDee]

I know that I am responsible for my impact on the planet. I do not need the City Council, or the mayor to instruct me in how to reduce that impact. I use my own bags in case I remember to bring them. Sometimes I don’t bring them because I need a new paper bag for clean green food waste.

Paper bags are a no-brainer–They go in the recycle or yard waste. While one might disagree with the general principle, trees grow here naturally, and can be harvested to make paper bags to haul groceries, books, or fertilizer in. But I will only be taxed to bring groceries home in a recyclable, renewable paper bag because the City (which is but one of many) decides I should pay the tax if I forgot my reusable bags (for a tax is what it is, regardless of the “good” cause it may or may not support).

If I am so rash and irresponsible as to request a plastic bag, would that bag, in and of itself, contribute to the mid-Pacific garbage patch? Not very likely. Will it end up blowing down the street? Nope. Will cattle living in the street ingest the the bag and get sick…No, we have no cattle living in the street. Will the vast quantity of wastes generated by the City of Seattle citizens stop increasing because fractionally fewer wafer-thin plastic bags are not added to the waste stream? I got a viaduct to sell you.

I will not sign the petition because they are being paid to gather signatures. I will object to this waste of our money. It may be justifiable as social engineering by government, but when the full cost of other activities is borne by those who generate them, I will support a “tax” that covers those costs, both the vehicle tax (that doesn’t) and the bag tax (which may or may not? who knows?) The bag tax isn’t based on actual costs or impacts, it was wagged.

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[JoB]

Jaydee..

i am sure that you are very responsible with your plastic bags…

but do you know what happens to each and every one when they leave your house?

What if a single bag comes out of your bag of bags in the recycling? did you know that the single bag jams the machines and they have to stop, remove the bag and restart the process?

did you know that the dog poo picked up with the plastic bag and thrown responsibly into the trash will never completely decompose because it is encased in plastic?

plastic bags were one of those things we have just not thought much about..

and now they have blossomed to haunt us.

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[beachdrivegirl]

First of all Mellaw6565 i will refer you to Walfredo’s post. i think he puts it better and more reasonable than most, and second of all here is a paragraph from one of two third parties studies i read about the tax because i like to get the facts before making an opinion.

“Our conclusion, briefly, is that the proposed Seattle program will be largely symbolic and

will have little or no noticeable impact on environmental quality in the Seattle area. The

polystyrene container ban may actually result in the use of materials that are more harmful to the

environment than the cups, plates, and containers being banned. The Seattle program, if enacted,

will be a “feel good” program whose substantive benefits will likely be insignificant and whose

costs may be considerable.”

It really was amazing to actual read and learn about the good and the bad of the bag tax before choosing a position. But thats fine, i will choose not to have something forced upon me, but instead will choose to shop in cities that deserve it like Burien !!

Cheers!

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

it would have been more helpful to evaluate that “third party” opinion had you referenced where it came from.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Analysis of the Seattle Bag Tax and Foam Ban Proposal

by

Randal R. Rucker,

Peter H. Nickerson,

and

Melissa P. Haugen

Northwest Economic Policy Seminar

July 25, 2008

In addition to being members of the Northwest Economic Policy Seminar, Rucker is a professor

in the Department of Agricultural Economics and Economics at Montana State University-

Bozeman; Nickerson is a former professor (and current adjunct instructor) at Seattle University

and is the owner of Nickerson and Associates, Seattle WA, and Haugen works with Nickerson

and Associates.

Here you go. it was taking so long to read each page i downloaded the pdf to my computer. :)

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[beachdrivegirl]

Also feel free to just google

“Seattle bag tax $0.20; evaluation”

I came up wiht a lot; the hardest part was finding non-biased parties not related or hired but the city.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Bag-fee battle side note: California lawsuit

For those that forget about the home page here is so more interesting reading. Click on the link listed in the home page article.

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[mellaw6565]

BDG – just because they are professors doesn’t mean they are non-biased. Every study has it’s bias – they teach that to us in graduate school. For every article you pull I could pull a lot more.

But it’s not the point – if you want to waste more money and gas driving all the way to Burien to prove your point – you go ahead. It’ll cost you way more in gas in the end run than the little user tax. And I’m sure you’ll feel real proud of yourself all the way there as you waste fossil fuels:)

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[WSMom]

I think the .20 cent tax is a good idea if for no other reason than it is making all of us think twice before loading our groceries into a bunch of plastic bags. A typical trip to Safeway would have me carrying at least 8 plastic bags into the house (they rip so easily the baggers would only put a couple of items in each bag, or double up the bag for heavier items). Even using these bags for dog poo, I still would end up with an overflowing drawer full of plastic eventually getting tossed into the recycle. Now I’m making a huge effort to remember to carry in my PCC cloth bags (that is when they’re not being used for running gear or swim towels). Every other grocery trip I end up running back out to my car to get my bags. Eventually I know this will become a habit, it just has to, it’s too annoying to keep forgetting. Once the fee get enacted, I’ll have even more incentive to carry in my reusable bags the first time.

One other thing, I also have made a concerted effort to WALK to the store this summer. I bought a very clever shopping trolley that I’m getting a lot of use out of. I load my groceries directly into the trolley and have no need of a bag.

http://www.citymouseshop.com/shopping-trolley.html

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

thanks for the link. i followed it and read their analysis… which is less an actual analysis than an opinion piece sourced primarily by the anti-ban factions.

Unfortuantely, even though they are professors, the paper was not academic.

When you source the anecdotal stories of one of the writers to prove that there is no local litter problem with plastic bags, it’s a good indication that there wasn’t much time spent on actual academic sourcing.

it’s a pretty impressive looking opinion piece until you analyze some of the assumptions they base their conclusions on.

such as their concern that we will be buying a surplus of heavy plastic bags to replace those “innocuous” plastic bags… and that those bags will end up in a landfill…

i bought too many.. but they weren’t all heavy plastic and the surplus didn’t end up in a landfill… unless the people who get them from the food bank put them there..

The few heavy plastic bags i have purchased have turned out to be surprisingly useful.. much more useful than the plastic bags i used to make do because they were “free”.

We use one of the surplus bags to transport books to and from the library.. and another is ideally suited for produce from the farmer’s market..

but mostly, i carry my envirosacs in my purse so that i always have them. one envirosac can carry 3 to 5 plastic bags worth of groceries… and they are easier to carry into the house… they’re washable … and attractive.

So that’s my anecdotal evidence that replacing plastic bags has proved to be the far more funtional option.. refuting their assumptions..

And with that, the professors and i have something in common.. we both have chosen to use anecdotal evidence to make an argument..

ok.. i am tired.. thinking is getting circular..

walk away from the keys ;->

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[mellaw6565]

JoB – you rock! Well said!

Where do you get your biodegradable poop bags? I have the bio bags for trash, compost, etc… but haven’t seen ones specifically for pets.

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[JoB]

you can get them at almost any dog store.. but if you really care about biodegradable.. it pays to read the fine print and do some research.

some of those bags take a long long time to biodegrade. of course, with poo in them, they are going to end up in a landfill.. so maybe it doesn’t matter.

i got lucky and found mine in bulk box at a discount store.. but will be ordering in bulk again online fairly soon. These dogs of mine really go through them.

want me to shout out when i do? I wouldn’t mind passing along a few rolls at cost.

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[Author]

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