A chance at unbanning your grocery bags

[munchkin22]

A petition is available for those of you who think that WE should have the final say on whether our beloved/hated plastic bags will remain or go.

http://www.saveourchoice.us/

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[DBP]

I’ll see your petition and raise you 1 lawsuit.

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[funkietoo]

Sometimes we need to look at the entire system and this is one of them.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using plastic bags.

Also, plastic bags are a petroleum product…which many of us are trying to take steps to reduce our dependency on—especially since a lot of that money funds folks like (the late) Bin Laden, and other terrorists.

http://www.earthresource.org/campaigns/capp/capp-background-info.html

http://www.science20.com/enrico_dorigo/will_banning_plastic_bags_help_environment-75598

http://www.google.com/search?q=plastic+bags+environment&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QNz0TtzGN6fKiAKNmvWODQ&ved=0CGQQsAQ&biw=1115&bih=566

To all, please take the time to research the pros and cons. Then vote…whether we vote the same way or not.

Munchkin22…hope you still love me. ;0)

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[cjboffoli]

Maybe while we’re at it we can draw up a petition to allow us to once again use ozone-depleting chlorofluorocarbons, to restore lead to our gasoline and the pipes for our drinking water, and to make it legal to hunt whales to extinction. After all, the right of the individual to choose what’s right for themselves (with total disregard for the greater good) is the highest priority, no? Heck, why not also remove the requirements that Cardiothoracic surgeons be board certified? Because who needs government regulations? No siree, we’re not gonna let the Nanny state tell US what to do!

:-)

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[Diane]

unfortunately, the info on this petition page is not accurate “unless you act now this law will ban bags starting January 18, 2012.”

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pretty sure, after signed by mayor, ban on bags would begin July 1, 2012

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[munchkin22]

First of all, I respect your comments and opinions, and yes Funkietoo, we still love you. Wow, I thought that I phrased my post as rather neutral as to the outcome.

We oppose the City Council opposing what appears to be the will of the people. Once again, the vote means nothing? I realize last time we rejected a fee for bags. Did they bother to look at their political futures when they made this decision? Did they do their research? We’ll see where this goes. Personally I have plenty of bags. It’s not really about the bags, well it is but it isn’t. Gee I’m getting all emotional now…..What about the mercury filled lightbulbs we’ll now be forced to use. In the name of what? We have primarily non polluting hydro generated electricity here in the NW so I say we should seek an exemption for those as well. We have enough mercury in the system already. Besides, the ones we’ve gotten fall far short of the performance and lifetime stated.

I remember several people up in arms the other day on this forum that were upset with the new bag law and it crossed the political spectrum. Have you already forgotten?

BTW cjboffoli, I’m with you on most of what you say, but I do struggle with nanny state interference on some items.

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[Diane]

The article listed on petition page is excellent, and my #1 reason for being opposed to plastic bag ban, public health & safety, especially children:

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Reusable Grocery Bags Contaminated With E. Coli, Other Bacteria

http://www.uanews.org/node/32521

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few top lines:

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“The research study – which randomly tested reusable grocery bags carried by shoppers in Tucson, Los Angeles and San Francisco – also found consumers were almost completely unaware of the need to regularly wash their bags.

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“Our findings suggest a serious threat to public health, especially from coliform bacteria including E. coli, which were detected in half of the bags sampled,” said Charles Gerba, a UA professor of soil, water and environmental science and co-author of the study. “Furthermore, consumers are alarmingly unaware of these risks and the critical need to sanitize their bags on a weekly basis.”

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Bacteria levels found in reusable bags were significant enough to cause a wide range of serious health problems and even death. They are a particular danger for young children, who are especially vulnerable to food-borne illnesses, Gerba said.

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The study also found that awareness of potential risks was very low. A full 97 percent of those interviewed never washed or bleached their reusable bags, said Gerba, adding that thorough washing kills nearly all bacteria that accumulate in reusable bags.”

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“New reusable bags and plastic bags were tested; none contained any contamination.”

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[munchkin22]

Diane, if you read section 6 on the back of the petition, you’ll find that this ordinance takes effect 30 days after the mayor signs it. The July date is when they can start fining for non-compliance is what I’ve been told. Thanks for your input on the health aspect of reusable bags.I guess “the greater good” is at question here. I’ll pick a clean plastic bag any day instead of following a harried, “too busy to wash their reusable” person in front of me, contaminating the conveyor belt. One day at our local store a lady brought her dog’s vomit in a knapkin and put it on the belt for the cashier to dispose of. He froze in shock for a moment for what she had done.

Cats like to mark things that smell unfamiliar to them. What better than a reusable bag that just made a trip and came back with all sorts of smells that need defending from? Then there’s meat drippings, dairy leaks, and on and on. Our plastic bags usually get only two uses, groceries and waste disposal. If they get soiled on the trip home, straight to the garbage. We overbag our trash so the ability for a bag to escape into the environment is extremely slim. We believe ourselves to be good stewards as we garden organically and use no pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. We recycle to a fault.

Aren’t a lot of these reusable bags made from petroleum as well? Not into hemp myself.

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[Diane]

Thanks munchkin22 for more great examples of why this bag ban is not good for human health/safety

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[kootchman]

Right…and of COURSE . the “left outs” never, ever, ignore science, ignore research, fudge and skew data as long as it fits their particular catechism of herd thought. The facts are, plastic bags consume less landfill space, require less energy to produce than paper, are far more sanitary, have more secondary uses, do not consume carbon sequestering trees, have a smaller carbon footprint, are safer, do not require washing or detergents that end up in our waters… say funkie.. ever see a pulping plant? caustic soda, sulphuric acid de-lignification, bleaching (dioxin can be a by-product) chip boiling reduction, pulp drying, finish paper drying,lime kilns (huge carbon dioxide emitter..reducing calcium carbonate to calcium hydroxide) Ya think the energy for those boilers, surge pumps, digesters, lights, logging trucks, deilvery trucks etc… come from Weenie Greenie heaven or Solyndra? In just volume alone..it takes 8 times as much energy to deliver paper bags as they are 8 times more bulky. Ya can’t play the green card on this one. Reuseable bag reliance is racist and unsafe for the poor .. you ignore public health for all those who can’t wash bags after every use…who don’t have access to washing machines… but who cares right? They have sturdier immune systems…. that natural selection thing, especially the homeless. White liberals…goofy if not dangerous. The greater good eh? Not on this one…greater reliance on three monkey thought process. You are all perfectly willing to listen to snippets of skewed data from think-a-likes.. and not do the research…

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[Diane]

watch it kootchman; I’m a “white liberal”, and agree with you

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funny comment last night at bus stop when I asked a black man who was carrying his groceries in plastic bags, “what do you think of the plastic bag ban?”; he says, “I just can’t get into carrying those femmie reusable bags”, which being a girl, never thought about

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[munchkin22]

You go Kootchman. But wait, aren’t there more than 3 on the city council? And I’m not sure about “thought process”.

Thanks for bringing more insight to the table.

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[kootchman]

Ask a greenie… Dear Greenie… I have heard, that the largest sequestration of carbon dioxide is, limestone from ancient seas and in biomass such as trees. Is this true? Concerned.

Dear concerned,

Yes this is true. Except in Seattle. In Seattle we break the sequestration science into a very special city council magic wand

of wishful thinking. What we do that is very very special..is we go all in.. we use high energy consuming pulp plants that cook off carbon dioxide from lime. As it rises into the special air of Puget sounds… we beat drums and convert it to candy. The carbon dioxide sequestered in the bio mass of trees that are released in the de-lignification, cooking, and bio degradation are captured in special fairy nets and we turn them into plastic chairs so we can all watch “An Inconvenient Truth” in a great big semi-circle where we pass out self congradulatory cards. That’s how we roll in Seattle

Yours truly in Luddite Science — “Greenie”

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[munchkin22]

But where does the Kool aid come in? Kool aid and carbon dioxide candy….mmmmmmmm good.

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[kootchman]

Ahhh that’s the real magic… they are called Pop Rocks… carbon dioxide entraining “kook aid”

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[munchkin22]

Good one, I love when magic happens…..

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[WSB]

The ordinance does take effect a month after the mayoral signature (which was the day the council passed it). HOWEVER, the ordinance that takes effect is an ordinance that stipulates the new rules kick in July 1st. Therefore, as of January 19th, an ordinance is in effect that says there will be a plastic-bag ban as of July 1st. – TR

http://is.gd/1l8alq (full text of the ordinance)

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[Diane]

thanks for clarifying TR

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[singularname]

I propose dog poop be picked up by *hand* also … that should help the environment, too.

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[JoB]

i am guessing we won’t see many reusable shopping bags snagged in trees or blowing down the street because someone was too lazy to bundle and recycle them…

and while you are worrying about those unwashed shopping bags on your grocery’s conveyer belt.. you might want to take a look around the store and ask yourself what was on the hands of the people who placed the groceries on that belt.. and how often that thing gets cleaned anyway…

methinks there is much ado about nothing going on here

i for one am glad that the city council took politics and advertising as much out of the equation as possible and made a decision that will ultimately benefit us all.

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[Diane]

I would not say “coliform bacteria including E. coli, which were detected in half of the bags sampled” is “much ado about nothing”

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and yes, as I’ve stated repeatedly in comments re bag ban, in this forum and on front page story, I wash everything that’s washable before it goes into my fridge/cupboards, because I’m well aware of the many germy hands of both employees and shoppers that touch items prior to my purchase; I put my grocery items in a handled basket, onto the belt, to avoid as many germs on the belt as possible, and have them loaded into clean paper/plastic bags, which I reuse for garbage and many other uses; I’ve even made curtains out of Trader Joe’s bags; plastic bags are perfect for stinky poopy diapers; and for people with cats, the poop should go in plastic bags so there’s no leakage; the Waste Management dude (who was part of panel with Bellingham folks who brought this ban to Seattle) told us that cat waste is very dangerous to humans, so should be bagged in plastic, and NEVER in the toilet; he said dog waste should go in plastic, otherwise bags could break and endanger the health of garbage collectors; he also told us that the hard plastics we all religiously separate into recycle bins, most ends up getting dumped into garbage at Waste Management facilities; therein lies the problem, not with us; we are already doing our job really well at recycling; WM is undoing our hard work; I asked if public could tour their facilities, like we are welcomed at the award winning recycler Nucor; he said no; gee, wonder why?; what do they have to hide?

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I rarely see plastic bags “snagged in trees or blowing down the street”

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since I take the bus often, see lots of folks carrying their groceries in fresh/clean plastic bags, so I’ve been asking, “what do you think about the new plastic bag ban?”; so far, zero knew about it before it passed and hit the news, they reuse their bags for garbage and other uses, and do not like the bag ban

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I disagree this bag ban will “ultimately benefit us all”; I agree with “Our findings suggest a serious threat to public health” with increased/enforced use of reusable bags, “A full 97 percent of those interviewed never washed or bleached their reusable bags”

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[2 Much Whine]

I am so lucky. Fifty plus years of not worrying about germs on doorknobs, germs from kisses, germs on conveyor belts and germs in bags. Germs, germs EVERYWHERE! Never worried about washing things before putting them away and never been sick from it. In addition, studies suggest the shopping bag is the least of our worries, shopping carts, hand baskets and salad bars pose a greater risk – but again never worried about it and never got sick. Think of how much extra time I have to surf the blog. . . . .I am confused, however by the backlash – 20 years ago plastic bags were not even an option at the grocery store and now they are “indespensable?” I suppose since they are perfect for so many things someone will start selling them directly to the consumer and you can just bring your own to the store or to pick up poo. If they are loved so much I think there is a market for that concept. If the marketing machine behind the plastic companies saw the writing on the wall they’d change their approach and sell directly to the people that love their product so much.

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[kootchman]

2 Much Whine… I agree. Though I would think the machine would be confiscated by the city “bag ladies”..gets a new urban definition though. great opportunity for the homeless women to sell and make some money. Break em’ down to 10 bags in a roll for 40 cents. A huge profit margin… 10 bags cost about 8 cents. Of course, I am sure the city council will find out .. and find a way to sell a special vendors license and have the famous SPD enforce it.. cause it’s the Seattle way. The Seattle City Council defanged the opposition by pulling them into the tax conspiracy..they are paying the grocery stores 5 cents per bag to be quiet. Taxing us, to bribe the stores, to fit a defenseless agenda… and the burden falls on who? Why those that can least afford it of course. Safeway selling nickel bags now? Call DEA

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[kootchman]

DBP. Ya mean..if the voters spanked the city council and challenged the bag tariff bribe… by the constitutionally sanctified right to petition by initiative there would be a lawsuit? I think there is a better way… the ethics of paying tax money to private companies for their silence and assent?!!! Say.. I guess the Democrats just won’t mend their ways will they? Crony capitalism at the expense of the 99% Bad enough we had lobbyists.. now we have government mandating we pay revenue to private companies by force of law? Ohhh I smell a lawsuit alright… a class action one.

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[Diane]

was that you I saw on the news munchkin22; good job!!!

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