25 Replies to "Lowman Beach overflow-control project: Advisory group meets Monday"

• transplantella February 10, 2012 (11:21 pm)

  Just. wow.

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  We live on Lincoln Park Way.
  They’re going to clear out the entire lower neighborhood from here. Shazaam. I must say I like the more open space.

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  And I’m going to be out in the middle of the street doing a happy dance when they shut the corner of Lincoln Park Way/Beach Dr./48th st. Our neighborhood is the Indianapolis Speedway of west Seattle. Biker gangs, horn honking, speeding, passing, late night street races, squealing tires, fastfood trash, squashed animals….motorists in our neighborhood are freaking terror on wheels. The noise is ungodly.

  —

  Bye bye invaders. Find another way to get to Alki. Hahahahaha.

• DM February 11, 2012 (12:01 am)

  So sad to see a bunch of “optimistic, mature green” where a sweet neighborhood used to be.

• metrognome February 11, 2012 (12:46 am)

  what the heck is a ‘woonerf’? Is that one of those fake words they include to see if anyone is reading the report?

  • WSB February 11, 2012 (1:07 am)

    It’s a real word. Came up a lot in the Triangle streetscape concept discussions too.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

• ScottA February 11, 2012 (3:23 am)

  I’ve seen architects and planners use the word woonerf a fair bit in the past 6 or so years. I think I first really noticed the usage when the Four Seasons hotel on 1st Ave requested no standard curbs at their vehicle entrance on Union Street. This allows vehicles to use the sidewalk right-of-way for maneuvering in what is admittedly a tight space. So instead of just asking to take over the sidewalk for vehicle maneuvering, this word made it sound like a cool new thing. I find the word instantly alienates and condescends to the audience in design review proceedings and documents. The city should discourage use of the word and designers should find better (more honest) ways of describing what it is they are proposing like “the sidewalk, driving and parking areas are all at the same grade”. Yeah, it takes a few words but the audience knows what is being proposed without relying on a very unfamiliar – and frankly – distracting word. There’s a South Lake Union project that has relied on the trendy word quite a bit: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sundaybuzz/2004122507_sundaybuzz130.html
  Edit: From the description used in the article it sounds like Pike Place is a woonerf we’ve had for quite some time and didn’t even know it. Pedestrians tend to control the space but cars are still allowed to use it.

• westseattledood February 11, 2012 (7:36 am)

  Before I ever moved from North Seattle and bought my home here, that charming block of funky apartments was part of what enticed me to West Seattle. When I would visit, I would go there to marvel at the beach homes and envision playing tennis there someday.

  This is a project of unfortunate necessity, I suppose. The whole eminent domain thing kicked in at a time when values are down on this prime location. Maybe I have missed it in WSB’s reports, but I am kind of curious how much the County is paying.

• miws February 11, 2012 (8:07 am)

  Could have been worse. They could have gone with the German term for a similar set-up; Verkehrsberuhigter Bereich. =:-0

  .

  Mike

• rw February 11, 2012 (9:01 am)

  I am confused by transplantella’s comments regarding traffic. Lincoln Park Way isn’t being closed off, as best I can tell. And unless all the houses south of Lowman Park are being purchased as well, then Beach Dr. still needs to be available for car traffic. If yes, after construction is complete will it still be possible to park by the curb on either side of Beach Dr. as it goes through Lowman Park?

  Also, I hope the duck house is not negatively impacted by this project.

• jissy February 11, 2012 (9:59 am)

  I’m with rw: Transplantella, can you elaborate?

• chas redmond February 11, 2012 (11:39 am)

  A woonerf (Dutch plural: woonerven) in the Netherlands and Flanders is a street where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists.

• chas redmond February 11, 2012 (11:39 am)

  As is true with Pike Place.

• transplantella February 11, 2012 (12:42 pm)

  Just running off memory here, but I believe I recall from an earlier reporting on this project that the Lincoln Park Way/Beach Dr./48th st intersection would be closed during the construction.

  Hooray!

  • WSB February 11, 2012 (12:53 pm)

    Traffic effects of the project are in the documentation somewhere. I will dredge it up later if nobody finds it sooner – TR

• metrognome February 11, 2012 (12:42 pm)

  thanks for the explanations; I finally found a drawing with a woonerf (which I believe was also a creature in the cantina scene in Star Wars) and the only apparent difference is that Beach Dr has a ‘wave’ instead of being straight. Seems like an odd place to discuss a woonerf as there is virtually no traffic on Beach south of Lincoln Park Way.

• metrognome February 11, 2012 (1:19 pm)

  the traffic study report can be seen for now at http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/wtd/Construction/Seattle/MurrayCSOStorage.aspx
  select the link to the January Design Advisory Group meeting on the right and then under handouts select ‘traffic calming study results’ (there’s no way to permalink to this document; wish the county would come up with shorter url’s.)

• Mike February 11, 2012 (3:45 pm)

  I’m going to guess that most people driving around here won’t follow the laws when using the ‘woonerf’. Just like many are clueless as to how to use a roundabout. So, for all the folks that drive around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DJDjaa25Co&feature=related
  .
  I’d love it if we could fix all the potholes and go with cobblestone streets. Would get people to slow down more too.

• flipjack February 11, 2012 (3:58 pm)

  Will the Duck house displays be accessible during this? My daughter needs visits on a regular basis.

• cj February 11, 2012 (5:45 pm)

  I live just south of the the area and the neighborhood always seemed like a nice quite place. I hope too many people are not put out by the project.

• Duckitude February 11, 2012 (7:08 pm)

  Hi Ducky Lovers! The duckies of Duckies Rule! will be continuing to migrate in to the neighborhood and entertain unless my neighbors, King County or the City of Seattle scare them off with intimidation, bullying, or rezoning the area as a “Ducky Free Zone.” One neighbor has tried.
  .
  As for the rest of the project, King County asks a lot of this neighborhood and offers almost nothing in return, and no promises. There is no way no know for sure what they will do because, as you will note in their draft plans and meeting notes (if you read them), they clearly say “there are constraints.” They are always hedging and are in complete control. As for a woonerf as defined as ScottA indicates it is defined, such a “no signficant curb” plan is ludicrous and highly unsafe. To allow vehicles to at will drive right on to the park’s grass surface without any significant deterrant is really underestimating the “adventurousness” and overestimating the level of respect people show for this park (and many others). Even with significant curbs, the lawn is often gouged out by 4-wheelers and others. Additionally, the idea that using the sidwalk which would be curbless, for cars to turn around on encourages disaster (pedestrians will not get priority treatment if turnarounds are allowed with no designated turnaround area on a two-way street.) My guess is that woonerfs are useful and kind of cool and functional if it is a one-way street, BUT dangerous if a two way street with turnarounds allowed in the middle of the street. (See photographs of woonerfs at the wikipedia site mentioned above — they are one-way streets.)
  .
  Build a round-about at the spot where the road is currently shown as narrowed and put no visitor parking south of it (a zoned area of parallel parking for residents only). Put angled parking north of the roundabout on both sides of the street. This is the safest and best solution all around… and curbs! And, no multiple point turn-arounds on a narrow street which are dangerous due to obstructed views backing up and complex navigation decisions due to multiple users in the traffic zone (bikes, walkers, runners, etc.,) all coming from different directions.

• JN February 11, 2012 (9:30 pm)

  Agreed, Duckitude. This design does not appear to be a true woonerf at all. True woonerfs are almost always one-way, and designed for speeds well under 18mph. This design simply keeps the current availability for motorists, while cutting out any sidewalks or protection for pedestrians, and allowing drunks to drive right onto the lawn and up to the shoreline to get their drink on. Face it: Americans are just not considerate drivers compared to Europeans, and expecting them to behave themselves is simply too much.

• Mike February 11, 2012 (9:56 pm)

  Duckitude, in order to have a roundabout where they are planning the narrow the road, they’d need to double the width of the road there to accomodate the roundabout use by average use vehicles (it’s also the only access for emergency vehicles, so you have to be able to get a firetruck in there too, so really a roundabout would not even work).
  Angled parking would also require widening the road, especially if both sides had angled parking.
  .
  Will the county give fair price for the homes there? Nope, they give what their tax assessors have deemed them worth. Have the taxes for people living in those homes gone down lately? Might want to check that, not like this project was not being thought of for years now. 2012 home values are supposed to continue downward, it’s a great opportunity for the county to pick up lots for cheap. The best thing homeowners/property owners can do is get their home/lot assessed professionally and document it, then get a lawyer. The county has people hired to ignore your complaints, you need to be persistant and nag the crap out of them before you get a reaction or have a lot of money to pay a lawyer to handle it.
  .
  Is this project necessary? Sure, to keep up with the excessive overflow due to larger homes and numerous condo/apartment complexes going up. So guess who benefits from it? Not you! But billy-bob-builder from California does.

• Duckitude February 12, 2012 (8:03 am)

  Re Mike’s comments — As you might note, they wish to narrow the current road. The current road is a two-way street with parallel parking on each side. It should stay at least this wide. Narrowing it without putting in really wide sidewalks will make it even more dangerous by further crowding in the current high concentration of walker, runner, dog, kids, bicycles and vehicles on that area of surface.
  .

  So, again, since there would be no parking in the round-about (could be an ellipse-about), the curent width of the road would almost be enough… probably be enough. You can currently do a u-turn from curb to curb without having to back up with almost any vehicle.
  .

  Would you like the width of the current road? 40 feet. That is wider than the usual minimum specs for a fire department turnaround for a cul-de-sac — 36. Minimum for a circulating radius cul-de-sac is 42 feet… Such a mid-block turnaround does not have to have anything in the center of the turnaround other than a heavy-weight pole with a sign on it, or a piece of heavy-weight art, or a raised concrete block the size of a 55 gallon drum. Such a turn-around does not interfere whatsoever with emergency vehicles getting through.
  .

  So, Mike, would a “mid-block modified-round-about turnaround” nomenclature work for you? You seem to want to just argue rather than think about what might be possible or what might be the safest for all parties involved (pedestrians, bicyclists, cars).
  .

  Fact is, KC is likely narrowing the road to give them more “possession” of property… who knows their true intentions. It does not benefit the neighborhood or the park. I would object to any changes in the current road dimensions if it comes up for a hearing by SDOT.
  .

  When you process what you see from King County or any governmental agency “developer” please keep in mind they are generally NOT trying to do things that would cost them very much, so they make plans that look, well, possibly somewhat appealing, but they are usually for the purpose of keeping it “cheap” or encroaching as much as they can possibly encroach.

• metrognome February 12, 2012 (11:44 am)

  curious how many people live on Beach Drive south of Lincoln Park Way … not very many, I’m guessing, yet us taxpayers are supposed to pony up for what exactly?

  • WSB February 12, 2012 (12:07 pm)

    You could count the properties via the King County Parcel Viewer. A few of the properties are multifamily, however.

• King County WTD February 13, 2012 (6:18 pm)

  King County was pleased to read that many of the comments here express some level of support for the preliminary design of the Murray Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) Control Facility, and wanted to answer some the questions that were posed. The facility will protect public health and help clean up Puget Sound by reducing incidents of untreated sewage and stormwater discharging directly to Puget Sound during storms from the Murray Avenue pump station located in Lowman Beach Park.
  .
  Some wondered about the purchase prices offered to property owners who previously owned the parcels now committed to the project. Property was purchased at fair market value based on mutual property appraisals. Six of the seven property owners affected by this project sold within six months of entering negotiations.
  .
  Some were concerned about access along Lincoln Park Way Southwest and Beach Drive Northwest during construction. Access will be maintained on both streets throughout construction. Although there may be some temporary delays while trucks and equipment are moving on and off site, residents, service vehicles and emergency vehicles will have access to both Beach Drive Southwest and Lincoln Park Way Southwest for the duration of the project.
  .
  Finally, there was a lot of discussion about the project’s affect on Beach Drive Southwest. King County has been working with the community since October 2011 to ensure that the facility provides safe, reliable service to the region while also fitting in well with the community. A key issue for the community from the outset of the project has been finding ways to calm traffic along Beach Drive Southwest south of the Lincoln Park Way Southwest intersection. King County’s preliminary design includes a bulb out at the Lincoln Park Way Southwest intersection to direct through traffic up the hill, away from the park. The submitted design retains much of the parking along Beach Drive and includes traditional curbing to ensure grassy areas and sidewalks do not become parking areas. The proposed woonerf reduces the street width to 32 feet wide – seven feet wider than a typical one-lane street found throughout Seattle. It includes a hammerhead turnaround at the facility gate at the south end of the site, not a roundabout.
  .
  King County was pleased that many of the commenters expressed some degree of support for the preliminary design. Revised design concepts that incorporate public feedback offered since the preliminary drawings were shared with the community in January are available online now at:
  http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/wtd/Construction/Seattle/MurrayCSOStorage/~/media/environment/wtd/Construction/BeachProjects/Murray/docs/2012_02_13_Murray_CSO_Rev_Prelim_Dsgn_Concepts.ashx

  King County will submit its preliminary design for the Murray CSO Control Facility to the Washington State Department of Ecology in late March.
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