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September 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm #604703
DBPMemberOver the past four years, the Republican Party has been working hard to bring that ancient source of power, the windmill, back into the national spotlight.
Meanwhile, scientists and energy companies worldwide have been pushing ahead with wind turbine technology.
So who’s right? Should Americans be talking about windmills or wind turbines right now?
Stay tuned. We’ll be right back after this important message about stuff White people like . . .
September 3, 2012 at 8:07 pm #769734
DBPMemberExhibit A: Windmills
Advantages:
► Simple, proven technology
► Cheap
► Useful for grinding grain or watering livestock
► Generally safe for birds
Disadvantages:
► Not very powerful or efficient
► Sometimes mistaken for dragons
September 3, 2012 at 8:18 pm #769735
DBPMemberExhibit B: Wind turbines
Advantages:
► Capable of generating electrical energy
► Non-polluting in operation
Disadvantages:
► Based on a relatively complex, developing technology
► Currently not cost-effective compared to some existing energy generating technologies (petro, coal)
► Some designs are noisy and dangerous to birds
September 3, 2012 at 8:21 pm #769736
DBPMemberAnd now another special message for our readers . . .
September 3, 2012 at 8:28 pm #769737
kootchmanMemberOccupy huge swaths of land…. the far bigger environmental damage. Not just birds.. the vibratory harmonics drive burrowing birds, mammels and reptiles away.. “sanitizing” the occupied area of wildlife up and down the occupation column. Also… it requires more transmission capacity to network them.. more mining for aluminium, copper etc. It’s not a complex technology… you spin copper in a circle to create an electric field. Been doing it for hundred of years now. It is not, non polluting… it may not emit carbon dioxide…. but the lubrication fluids, the transmission wires. all require extraction technologies and wonder of wonders… fossil fuels to smelt the metals for the towers and the wires….
September 3, 2012 at 9:19 pm #769738
DBPMemberSeptember 3, 2012 at 9:31 pm #769739
SmittyParticipantWhatever you decide, just remember not to build them near Hyannisport because the Kennedy family would have to look at them.
Build them in fly-over country.
Rubes.
September 3, 2012 at 10:46 pm #769740
Talaki34ParticipantMaybe I am missing a piece of the puzzle. I thought windmills are used to produce mechanical energy (first set of pictures) and wind turbines (second set of pictures) are used to produce electricity. Both utilize the wind, but differently and with different results.
September 3, 2012 at 11:00 pm #769741
DBPMemberNo, T. Your picture is complete.
It’s another person on this blog whose puzzle is missing a piece. Or three.
He’s some kind of professor or something, but whenever he gives a lecture on energy technology, he gets windmills all mixed up with wind turbines.
I know, I know . . .
Dumb, huh?
September 3, 2012 at 11:03 pm #769742
miwsParticipantOccupy huge swaths of land…. the far bigger environmental damage. Not just birds.. the vibratory harmonics drive burrowing birds, mammels and reptiles away….etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda on and on and on etc
In other words, wind power would cut into the profits of the fossil fuel industries…
Mike
September 3, 2012 at 11:43 pm #769743
Talaki34ParticipantKindred missing a piece of the PI person.
Years ago I finally gave up on “Mitosis and Meiosis” and so did my science teacher. I think it might have been the first time he had to admit defeat. LOL!!! So if we can keep all future conversations away from daughter cells (Yup, I had to go look this up) I would appreciate it.
Never say dumb, even in jest. ;)
September 4, 2012 at 12:59 am #769744
Talaki34ParticipantDBP,
I know that this is not really part of the thread as such, but since you have lectured on energy technology I would assume that you also have lectured about energy technologies environmental impacts. So I have a question that relates to climate impacts of large wind farms. A while back there was some question about what effects, if any these large turbine farms would have on the overall climate. There seemed to be differences on how the material was interpreted (there always is) and I was wondering what you thought. Would or could this produce something like the “Butterfly Effect?”
September 4, 2012 at 4:23 am #769745
kootchmanMemberNo miws.. wind turbines cut into your pocket. well, maybe not yours… but wind turbines cost over 400 per cent more per kw hour… and they di receive direct subsidiies which oil does not… and they get to average in their higher costs with lower cost fossil and hydro power. You aren’t cutting into oil profits, you have another sucking at the government teat competing for the same resources … money. That’s why we borrow .41 cent on the dollar.. and why social programs are being cut. Talaki34 never let good science trump a political agenda. 1 gigawatt of wind power requires 242 square kilometers… and a useful life of 10-15 years. 20-25 years estimated by the EPA… And in winter storms they have to be shut down…just when ya need em the most.. or in the coastal regions winds above .. the cut in speed is about 4 meters per second (when there is enough torque to turn to rotors) and the cut our speed, when they have to be taken off line is about 25 metres per second… hardly reliable.
September 4, 2012 at 4:33 am #769746
kootchmanMemberThe reason windmills are not used… they are unreliable, on demand, mechanical sources. Good for pumping water into ;ivestock ponds…
September 4, 2012 at 6:59 am #769747
metrognomeParticipantnice try with the disinformation campaign there, kootch. Even if the US oil companies don’t get direct subsidies from US taxpayers, the get indirect subsidies in the form of tax breaks. And the company makes billions. po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to. Or, as Dan Quail would say, po-TAY-toe, po-TAH-toe.
http://news.yahoo.com/history-u-oil-subsidies-back-nearly-century-215500548.html
And then there’s the international oil companies and the countries who are sitting on pools of oil. How much have we spent on wars for a few years and then massive amounts of aid in other years, all for the god of oil (and more profits, of course.) What about the tanker spills, the platform disasters, the refinery fires, the groundwater pollution at your local gas station.
Doubt we will ever see a full scale war over wind turbines.
September 4, 2012 at 12:00 pm #769748September 4, 2012 at 12:02 pm #769749
redblackParticipantNo miws.. wind turbines cut into your pocket.
unlike gasoline, which is cheap and plentiful.
September 4, 2012 at 3:26 pm #769750
kootchmanMemberredblack… how much of that gallon of gas is taxes? You won’t fight over windmills. because they have no strategic value. The Germans didn’t invade the lowlands for their wndmills! It’s not reliable power. You can’t tun on the switch and have it on demand. Let’s take away ALL the tax “breaks” … ? No business expense deductions? Those are the “indirect subsidies” you whining Dims keep trotting out.. of course a heavy capital intensive industry has asset depreciation and expense write off. I am ready to shut down ALL energy company subsidies.. not related to actual business expenses. You libers make me laugh… when Exxon makes .07 cents a gallon but the state governments make from .50 to .75 gallon it’s laughable… same reason we still have tobacco price supports… the dirty deal is the states make soooooo much money taxing tobacco, they want it not be grown.. they just want to tax it more.. and it works perfectly.. it’s a lower middle class to poor tax … an addiction for profit scheme. Gasoline is cheaper than any other option we have… and we have yet to even discuss the most toxic aspect of solar energy and wind energy… being that is is variable .. the toxicity of storage mediums and the disposal of batteries and manufacturing.
September 4, 2012 at 3:35 pm #769751
kootchmanMemberwhat’s the disinformaton? You HAVE to absorb windmill energy in your cheaper mix of power sources? It gets direct subsidy? See Solyndra, SolarOne, et al… energy tax credits? Let’s pull those out of the federal budget. It’s not competitive and costs the consumer more. Simple test. Pull the direct subsidies and the tax credits… see if the industry can stand on its own… it can’t.
September 4, 2012 at 3:42 pm #769752
DBPMemberComing up . . . Pop Science Quiz
Republicans, you’re welcome to take the quiz, too. Even though it’s about SCIENCE.
Remember, there are no right and wrong answers.
—Whoa!! Wait a minute . . .
What the hell am I saying?
Of COURSE there are right and wrong answers!
It’s SCIENCE!
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Painting by Remedios Varo
http://sleepingunderstatues.tumblr.com/post/2787749370/i-love-remedios-varo
September 4, 2012 at 4:04 pm #769753
JoBParticipanti jsut love it when i hear someone who defends oil drilling and transporting immense amounts of oil in a pipeline across America’s farmland without any of that oil benefiting America, coal mining.. much of which is open pit and destroys immense amounts of land, and natural gas fracking talk about the dmage to the environment when solar or wind energy is mentioned.
September 4, 2012 at 4:18 pm #769754
DBPMemberBut first, to Talaki’s question:
Would or could [wind turbines] produce something like the “Butterfly Effect?”
–Yes they could. By definition, the Butterfly Effect is the unpredicted/unpredictable (yet significant) impact of some action, created at a distance of time and/or geography.
Wind farms could have such an effect.
But would they?
–Unknown at this time.
Wikipedia has a concise, readable, and well balanced piece on wind energy, and it gives quite a bit of attention to this very question.
The Wikipedia article is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_wind_power
The thing to note about the Wikipedia article is not that it supports or refutes any particular point of view on wind energy, but that it approaches the question from a scientific point of view, relying on peer-reviewed scientific research and expert opinions, rather than politics or hearsay.
And that’s exactly what the rest of us should be doing as we evaluate wind, solar, or any other new technology.
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But if someone uses “windmill” when they mean “wind turbine” you can reasonably infer one of the following:
1) The person really doesn’t know any better and needs to read up some more before they speak out.
2) The person knows better but is trying to drag politics into a discussion about science. (I know, I know . . . Imagine that!)
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In the kootchman’s case, he can’t play the “I didn’t know any better” card, because I’ve pointed out the difference between windmills and wind turbines to him repeatedly. Yet still he continues to act as if there’s no difference. And in this he’s merely parroting leading Republicans, who do the same.
My message to kootchman and the Republicans is this:
If you want to be part of a scientific discussion, don’t come into the room waving your ignorance like a flag, because all you’re going to accomplish by that is to get yourselves ridiculed.
And that’s just what I’m doing with the kootchman now. Ridiculing him.
As he deserves.
September 4, 2012 at 4:38 pm #769755
kootchmanMemberI know what you are saying… they are windmills.. attached to electrical generating coils. They are the same thing as windmills, attached to water pumps. or windmills attached to grinding stones or attached to saws… they are windmills. The basic process is a windmill attached to a device. They aren’t anymore complicated than that. It sounds more sellable calling it a turbine. Now if the wind was directed into a turbine directly but it is not… “wind turbines” need to be coupled to a mechanical device.
tur·bine (tûrbn, -bn)
n.
Any of various machines in which the kinetic energy of a moving fluid is converted to mechanical power by the impulse or reaction of the fluid with a series of buckets, paddles, or blades arrayed about the circumference of a wheel or cylinder.
Answers.com
A windmill is a machine that is powered by the energy of the wind. It is designed to convert the energy of the wind into more useful forms using rotating blades or sails.windmills served originally to grind grain, though later applications included pumping water and, more recently, generation of electricity. Recent electricity-generating versions are referred to as wind turbines.They are used for generating electricity.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_windmill_do#ixzz25WF40YCD
Don’t wave a political speak flag if you want to discuss science either. Now, if you want to say wind is a fluid, directly fed into the blades of a turbine as water is fed directly into a water turbine then you have a turbine. To wrap up… a centuries old use of a wind mill … to harvest wind energy… to attach to a mechanical device, i.e an electron generating device… or grindstone… “wind turbine” doesn’t make it more or less than what it is… a wind mill to harvest wind energy to connect to a mechanical device… Your comment is asinine. You are flying a political flag under camoflouge … my source is my PhD physics brother … it’s a windmill.
Now I point out to you… your definition is self styled. It’s not science. Cheap parse of words to fit a political disposition… no wonder “journalists” are trusted as much as congress… oh wait, you edit only right? You didn’t claim journalism.. my mistake.
Pssst.. my brother sent along this… they call them windmill farms…. for a reason. That’s what they call em’ in Sandia National Labs.
Here this might help… see the gearbox? Generator/Alternator connection? That’s a transfer of wind energy to mechanical energy… no gearbox? Turbine. gearbox, windmill.
Raise your white flag…. and wave it side to side….. boy, you showed me Mr. Science!
September 4, 2012 at 5:21 pm #769756
2 Much WhineParticipantWhere is my popcorn? This is getting good. At least nobody is talking to an empty chair.
September 4, 2012 at 5:25 pm #769757
miwsParticipant….you whining Dims….
’bout the only whining I see ’round here, is comin’ outta the ol’ tea kettle….
You libers make me laugh…
Mike
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