Home › Forums › Open Discussion › TrayVon Martin case a done deal?
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April 4, 2012 at 6:39 pm #752613
waterworldParticipantKootch: I am not sure that’s necessarily so. I haven’t looked lately, but I am pretty sure I have read cases where courts held that a person could be found to be the initial aggressor based on acts the occurred some time prior to the physical altercation. So jury might be free to conclude that even though person A threw the first punch, Person B, by approaching person A in a threatening way or by using threatening words, was the initial aggressor.
Here, if, say, Zimmerman tailed Martin in his car after having been advised not to do so by the 911 dispatcher, and then jumped out and ran towards Martin while saying something threatening, and then Martin took the first swing, Zimmerman might be deemed to be the initial aggressor. We just don’t have the facts, and on what little we do have, it could go either way. I’m just saying it may not turn on whether Zimmerman displayed his weapon or attempted to restrain Martin.
April 4, 2012 at 7:15 pm #752614
DBPMemberWe just don’t have the facts, and on what little we do have, it could go either way.
Thank you, ww. So nice to hear someone admit that every now and then.
In the legal sense of the word, we never will have “the facts” —unless there is a trial. And speaking of . . . what’s the latest on that? Is there going to be a trial of some kind or not?
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And while we’re still on the topic of the law . . .
Racism is not legal term. “Hate crime” is a legal term; however, hate crime is a rather difficult charge to prove.
For Zimmerman to be guilty of a hate crime—that is, supposing they have such a statute in Florida—first, self-defense would have to be ruled out. After self-defense is ruled out, Zimmermans’s motivation for shooting TrayVon Martin would then have to be determined to be largely based on Martin’s ethnicity or skin color.
To make such a determination, you would need to show a history of racist statements and associations on Zimmerman’s part (which would still be considered merely circumstantial evidence) and/or you would need to have solid evidence of Zimmerman using racial slurs as he was pursuing and attacking Martin.
Think you’re going to be able to marshal any such evidence as that? Come on. Realistically? No.
Vague suppositions to the effect that Zimmerman didn’t like Black people based on his demeanor at the time of the shooting are practically worthless in terms of establishing whether Zimmerman committed a crime or not. Which is precisely why the DA declined to go down that blind alley in making the initial decision on whether to charge him with one.
Your serve, waterworld . . .
April 4, 2012 at 9:29 pm #752615
anonymeParticipantI don’t think this meets the level of a hate crime.
But I DO think a serious crime was committed – whether it was murder, manslaughter, or a combination of other crimes – this dude needs to be charged and all of the evidence brought to court. If you agree, there will be a “Justice for Trayvon” rally from 12-1 April 5th at South Seattle Community College.
April 4, 2012 at 10:53 pm #752616
waterworldParticipantDBP: The word, so far as I know it, is that no one has been charged with any crime in connection with Trayvon Martin’s death. I basically agree with you that we won’t have all the facts unless there’s a trial, except that I am unconvinced we will have all the facts even then. We like to think of trial as a truth-seeking function, but really it’s not. Evidence that we would want to know may not be admissible in a trial, and the evidence that is admissible may be heavily massaged. And unless you are personally watching the trial, it is unlikely you will get the full picture from media reports. Having said that, we would know more than we do now if there is ever a trial.
Whether racism played a role in the events is an issue that concerns me, yes. Racism, like any other bias or prejudice, can have an incredibly significant role in an event that might be a crime — but that doesn’t mean that the crime (if there was one) was a hate crime. Personally, I am no fan of hate crime legislation. (I’ll save the reasons for that for another day.) I am not suggesting that Zimmerman should be charged with a hate crime. I think you are right that there’s no way it could be proven, even if investigators believed it.
Taking hate crimes off the table, I still think it is worth considering whether Martin’s race had something to do with Zimmerman’s behavior. It goes to the issue of motive, which, although it is not an element of a crime like murder or manslaughter, is generally explored as part of a criminal investigation or a trial.
It’s not really accurate to say that I am offering some “vague suppositions” about Zimmerman’s attitude toward blacks based on his demeanor when he shot Martin. My concerns about Zimmerman’s behavior are also based on his long history of 911 calls about people he deemed suspicious. Recordings of several of those calls still exist and you can listen to them. I don’t recall the precise number just now, but it seemed to me that he called 911 frequently for some years before the neighborhood watch program was established. Most of Zimmerman’s 911 recordings were destroyed, as is routine. The ones that exist are interesting and, in my view, shed light on the issue of Zimmerman’s attitude.
As for why the prosecutor decided to do, or not do, anything in this case, I certainly don’t know, and I doubt that you do, either.
April 4, 2012 at 11:42 pm #752617
DBPMemberIt’s not your reasoning I’m worried about, waterworld. You’re a clear-headed thinker. But there is this kind of mob mentality that’s developed around the case that doesn’t serve the cause of justice in my opinion.
I’m not defending Zimmerman; if anything I’d be a little tilted against him. But this idea that the media + Al Sharpton + a whole bunch of people on the Internet could make a prosecutor change his mind about whether to charge someone with a crime I find very disturbing.
Yes, I know it happens, just as I know it happens that people like TrayVon Martin sometimes don’t get justice—simply because of the color of their skin.
Guess it’s an imperfect system all around.
April 5, 2012 at 12:38 am #752618
JanSParticipanthow about his father , the judge, being present when the police questioned Zimmerman? There is so much we in the public don’t know about what went on behind the scenes. Now the news comes out with, yes, enhanced pictures show that Zimmerman was injured, yet he was treated for 8 minutes by paramedics. So much doesn’t add up…so much is confusing. And Zimmerman has had a month to solidify his story. Trayvon Martin hasn’t had that time. I want there to be a proper investigation. As far as I can see that didn’t happen. Maybe the grand jury will figure it all out.
Again…only two people know what actually happened..and one is dead. The other can say whatever he wants, it seems.
April 5, 2012 at 12:51 am #752619
dobroParticipant“But this idea that the media + Al Sharpton + a whole bunch of people on the Internet could make a prosecutor change his mind about whether to charge someone with a crime I find very disturbing.”
If it wasn’t for all those people this case would most likely have been swept under the rug by the local authorities, as was in fact happening until the media, Al Sharpton, and a bunch of people on the internet raised a fuss.
I find it a lot more disturbing that something like that could happen, since its pretty easy to see, even with our limited knowledge of the facts, this is a case that needs investigation and trial.
April 5, 2012 at 2:45 am #752620
SmittyParticipantNBC should be ashamed:
“Here’s the transcript of the audio NBC played:
Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.
Here’s the actual transcript:
Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
April 5, 2012 at 3:21 am #752621
JanSParticipantand they’ve apologized for that. Don’t know what else they can do…they were wrong and admitted it. I think they all need to think before they say things.
April 5, 2012 at 3:32 am #752622
jamminjMemberok, so none of us know all the facts. But really, a guy in a vehicle following people down the street who have done no wrong, that in itself is creepy. If I was the one being followed, I would have run, which would have made me ‘look’ guilty, or confronted the person following me, which seems to resulted as it did.
I understand the need for neighborhood watches, and sorry if I don’t know every aspect of this case… but is there any reason for Zimmerman to say or do anything when he sees someone, other than call 911, any reason at all when no crime is being committed? Why approach anyone?
If someone approached me in the middle of the night, started questioning me, I would definitely take a defensive stance. How do I know that that person is not the threat. Show a weapon, and damn straight I will do whatever to stop you. What crime exactly did Martin commit to use deadly force before Zimmerman showed up?
April 5, 2012 at 4:59 am #752623
kootchmanMemberIf Zimmerman’s father is a lawyer..and I assume he is, why shouldn’t he be at any questioning? He does have the right to an attorney during any questioning and a fool would answer questions without one present. We don’t know that Zimmerman did show a weapon… again, speculation. I would probably ask a kid in my alleyway at night if he was lost..if he or she was not the child of my neighbor.. . and, yea. probably follow him too. But then again… three of my neighbors have been burglarized and one had his car stolen .. that’s what block watches are all about. We are just trying to be fair… giving liberal news organizations as much air time as they give….conservative outlets. A couple of weeks and some resignations and a boycott of advertisers should do it. One producer and one news director should be unemployed….
April 5, 2012 at 6:55 am #752624
JanSParticipanttrue, that, Kman. He does have that right. At some point a weapon was shown. We just don’t know when. One can speculate only that if Trayvon supposedly went for his gun that it had to be showing somehow. I still say, if the guy had stayed in his car and kept his distance, he wouldn’t be famous now.
I have people walking up and down my alley all the time that I don;t know. I’m near the high school, and kids of all types and sizes use it for a shortcut. I am near a major street (Admiral Way and Calif. ) and there are times when there are people walking down the alley in the wee hours of the night, sometimes under the influence coming from the local establishments. I don’t run outside every time they’re there. They’re passing through, and have every right to be there (unfortunately, some stop along the way to check out cars, etc). If I would notice something untoward I would call the police. I would not confront anyone. Kman, you’re bigger than me, so you present a more “threatening” demeanor. I suppose I could beat them over the head with my cane if they approached me menacingly – lol…
April 5, 2012 at 1:45 pm #752625
anonymeParticipantIt’s interesting about the NBC alteration. I obsessively (yes, I’ll admit it) searched the internet listening to all of the 911 snippets I could find. Every news source and web site had their own edited version; by edited, I mean intact portions of the tape, rather than the entire conversation. Not once did I hear the NBC version. But then, I don’t listen to mainstream news.
As to the head wound, it doesn’t mean much IMHO. For one thing, it seems probable that Trayvon had good reason to punch the guy, possibly even in defense of his own life – if not for pure harassment. Whether or not an altercation took place is rather meaningless. Second, anyone who has ever had a scalp wound knows that even a tiny cut will bleed profusely. It’s odd that there is no blood on Zimmerman’s jacket. If he’d really had his head bashed on the pavement as claimed, paramedics would have wanted to establish the possibility of concussion. Instead, the gashes on Zimmerman’s head were not even deemed worthy of a bandaid – much less stitches, and police canceled the second ambulance.
Trayvon was dead within 2-3 minutes of his phone going dead while talking to his girlfriend (his phone has mysteriously disappeared). Police were there within five minutes. Does the time frame allow for a deadly beating?
April 6, 2012 at 7:57 am #752626
HMC RichParticipantanonyme, I don’t agree with your reasoning. All the information counts and should not be discounted.
In fact, innocent until proven guilty.
This incident is sparking a powderkeg. How about some words from a prominent black man regarding behavior….http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter-e-williams/2012/04/01/walter-williams-column-profiling-and-trayvon-martin-case
Don Cheadle gets it. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2012/04/05/liberal-actor-don-cheadle-slams-nbc-selective-editing-zimmerman-tape
Any marches should be for the loss of a young person whose life was cut short. It should not be about George Zimmerman, or racism, or anything else until the official reports come out.
April 6, 2012 at 8:29 am #752627
HMC RichParticipantAnd now, possibly, the racial slur may not have been used. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/did-zimmerman-punks-racial-slur-911-recording-005746464.html
From Yahoo
April 6, 2012 at 1:41 pm #752628
anonymeParticipantRich, since you haven’t debated a single specific statement that I made, I have to wonder how you can justify a blanket statement rejecting my “reasoning”.
I even took the time to read at least one of your links, which both came from an uber-conservative Obama-bashing website. I actually agree with much (not all) of what Walter Williams had to say. I guess you didn’t really read my post(s) or you would have known that I haven’t claimed racism as a primary motive. There are enough holes in Zimmerman’s story to raise a host of other questions, which is what I did.
And maybe you didn’t notice the numerous other posts pointing out that the reason the case is being tried in the media and the court of public opinion is due to the fact that it was not being considered elsewhere. Trayvon was convicted and executed without a trial. Zimmerman walked free until there was a public demand for justice – including an investigation that would not otherwise have taken place.
As to the new claims by Zimmermans lawyers that he says “punks” on the 911 tape: it’s possible. Especially if in Florida “punks’ is pronounced to rhyme with “moons”.
April 8, 2012 at 12:39 am #752629
JanSParticipantand for those who think that NBC will just sweep their mistake under the rug, there’s this:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/nbc-fires-producer-over-edited-zimmerman-911-call-201124740.html
April 8, 2012 at 2:03 am #752630
kootchmanMemberYea… the conservative press took NBC down a peg. But they did it because they know there are outrageous examples of biased journalism that are accepted as gospel and rarely get parsed. It’s the last gasping, death rattle, of a press who is trusted about as much as congress. Journalistic integrity is the supreme oxymoron. They did it to whip up the frenzy and keep the ratings going. Of course Zimmerman is shaping his message… I am sure he is being prepared for an eventual trial. There is such a thing as a right to a speedy trial… and the clock starts running as soon as he is arrested. You want him to walk because he was arrested when the prosecution is not prepared to go to trial? At some point a prosecutor has to determine if there are elements of an actual crime. Arresting someone where those elements have yet to be satisfied ..and the defense gets to see their hand in discovery? . That thing… “probable cause” has to be decided. So far, the special prosecutor has not determined that is the case. Now if Zimmerman was black, resourceless. that could happen in a second. He’d get a coiurt appointed defense attorney and probably take a 10 year manslaughter plea agreement, This prosecutor is well aware that is not the case. It would be a shame if prosecutorial misconduct was cause for dismissing any potential for a future trial… if one is warranted. Of course NBC thought they would get away with it… but then again, who watches network news anymore?
April 8, 2012 at 3:31 am #752631
JoBParticipantThe conservative media demands the truth nothing but the truth from everyone but themselves
April 8, 2012 at 6:23 am #752632
JanSParticipantI was thinking the same thing, JoB…like you actually get unbiased news from Faux News.,..
April 8, 2012 at 6:24 am #752633
JanSParticipantlol…Kootch – obviously somebody watches NBC, because we heard about their mistake quite quickly…
April 8, 2012 at 9:01 pm #752634
JoBParticipantI have had the unfortunate experience of breakfasting with fox news for the past few mornings . No wonder people who watch that station think stupid stuff . i saw the same stupid stuff repeated several times every morning . it got so bad i started ducking every time i heard something fall . the sky will fall . its just a question of when :(
April 8, 2012 at 10:10 pm #752635
JanSParticipantI’m sorry, JoB…truly I am.. :-
April 8, 2012 at 10:36 pm #752636
kootchmanMemberFunny thing though, FOX news on any given night is where most Americans got to get their news. When they dropped NBC, CBS, ABC and even CNN…. that is where most Americans go. Of course the six or seven people who watch “The Ed Show” go on and on about etch a sketch and some dog Romney put on his roof in a dog cage.. must feel terrible. But that is the definition of liberals… self appointed righteousness. I would never expect the left to understand Lou Dobbs, Stuart Varney, or any rational financial analysis… it doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker and doesn’t have a 1% to blame for all the evils. And of course they might have to deal with the reality that all the wealth out there is not theres for the taking…. and we actually do need entitlement reform if this economy is to ever grow out of it’s current state of morbidity. See, ya just can’t give over 28 of the GDP to government. Shame that concept is not understood. It IS falling… hello? When you borrow 40 cents for every dollar you spend.. the sky is collapsing.
April 8, 2012 at 10:40 pm #752637
kootchmanMemberJan.. where was this reported? “true, that, Kman. He does have that right. At some point a weapon was shown”? He may have used it without a threatening display. We KNOW.. nothing. We speculate a lot.
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