Safety in West Seattle High School

[dgirl]

I just spent an evening having pizza with my nephew and his friends who are in West Seattle High School. They described the stress of getting through a day where kids are “pocket checked” in the halls (do you have $$?), threatened and followed off a bus home. Can someone in WS HS think about the safety of kids? Who is more important? The bully or his victims? Is the administration afraid of being sued? Our kids should be able to feel safe in their school…I know I did.

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[mellaw6565]

Dgirl – As a teacher, we don’t often get reports like this from students because they may be intimidated or labeled a ‘snitch’. The best source for us is usually parents or adults that call in. I would definitely give the school a call and tell them what you learned. They’ll notify staff to be on the lookout in the halls.

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[Gina]

I went to West Seattle High in the late 70s.

Never felt safe at school, on the way to school, or on the way home from school.

Glad to see that the tradition of bullies and jerks has survived. Has to be something to make you thankful get up and go to work daily. No matter how bad work is, it is always better than the best day at high school!

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[idler]

I have 14 yo son who just started WSHS this past week. He has been on cloud nine. Loving every minute. He is a talker and a great communicator. If he becomes aware or experiences situations described above I feel pretty sure he will tell a grown up. Maybe it is too soon to tell. But, he and his group of friends are only reporting amazing school spirit and feeling great about West Seattle High School.!!! Every school has bullies and folks are kidding themselves if they think that is not the case. A few bad apples doesn’t spoil the whole bunch.

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[WSB]

Glad to hear that your son is having a great time.

Also sorry to hear about the OP’s report.

**personal opinion follows, separate from editorial policy, and let me be clear I know nothing about what’s being discussed here wrt WSHS, good or bad or both – but that aside, this is a topic way too important for me not to say something**

We personally have experience with a school (not in West Seattle) where bullying and physical assault were NOT handled swiftly and sternly, and should have been.

Why SHOULD “every school (have) bullies”? If they are reported, why can’t the problem be eradicated? How about zero tolerance?

Most of all, though, the responsibility falls to us as parents. We need to evangelize to our children that it is NOT okay, EVER EVER EVER EVER, to be mean to someone in any way because they are different, or for ANY other reason. This needs to start young. I would propose that perhaps in some cases it is even more important than all the other things we talk to our kids about — alcohol, drugs, sexual activity. Ask your children – is there anyone in your class who doesn’t have any/many friends? Why? How do you interact with this person? What do you do when someone is teasing/bullying this person? Have you ever seen anything bad done/said to this person? Did you report it? (etc.)

The anti-bullying programs allegedly in schools now tend to focus on sloganeering, from our experience. Slogans posted on walls. And around the corner from that slogan on a wall – a kid is kicked, and comes home with a three-inch scar on his leg, and his parents try to get the school to take action, and never get anything more than “we’re investigating.”

Sorry to threadjack. But it’s a novel way for parents to look at it, and maybe the most effective way. Don’t just pay attention to who your kids are friends with. Find out who they are not friends with, and why. You may teach a life lesson that will pay dividends many times over, for people you may not ever even meet.

In the meantime, in the more immediate sense, WHEREVER bullying/persecution is happening – it is not OK and should never be dismissed as “oh, that just happens.” When we send our kids off to school in the morning, we have the right to expect they will be safe – emotionally safe as well as physically safe – and anything preventing that is an urgent problem that must be solved.

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[ellenater]

I agree with the keymaster on this one. Bullying has been socially acceptable for too long. If you really stop and think about it, it becomes clear how insane it really is. Why should anyone have to walk around feeling intimidated? That is just crazy. I also agree that parental responsibility is overlooked in these situations. The behavior is probably sometimes even modeled at home. Also, emotional safety is not even in the vocabulary, and it should be. I chose my son’s school based partially on their attitude about bullying! I also didn’t choose another school based on the same thing. We do have a right to expect our kids to be safe!

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[Caduceus]

I got a lot of flack for the specific opinion I’m about to share but…

Kids with any sort of realistic common sense do not bully. As Low pointed out, people who have good morals will enforce them in their own lives.

This is not a blanket statement, all bullies are cowards. Reporting to a teacher isn’t going to do anything, and will only make the “bully” angry. The person being bullied needs to simply stand up for himself. As cliche as it sounds.

A bully will not take the time to harass someone if he knows there will be consequences or pain involved. He needs to simply be off campus and physically defend himself, even if he gets jumped by 4 guys he will not be bullied as he was before because he isn’t “easy prey” so to speak.

In actuality it’s really a silly proposition to a very silly problem but you have to remember that highschool consists greatly of very simple minds, and people who don’t really care about anything.

If he does not stand up for himself, the problem will continue to persist. They need to know no one has the right to put their hands on their bodies, take their things or invade their privacy without consequence. And that they have the right to put a stop to it.

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[JoB]

Caduceus..

i will pass along the advice from my retired policeman brother…

carry something that makes a lot of noise. bullies don’t like attention. If you have a good scream.. use it…

it accomplishes the same purpose.. making you more difficult to bully.. and you probably won’t have to fight.

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[WSratsinacage]

Why don’t schools kick out the bullies and those who can’t follow the rules time and time again? What is with the BS line of “we’re investigating”? Why the feet dragging? Are they afraid of getting sued by the degenerate’s family? If that is the case, then how about being sued by the victim’s family for not doing anything about the problem that they knew about? This is a really interesting topic. Just in general, I am surprised at how society handles trouble makers, from bullies to murderers. But getting back to the topic of minors, we tend to give them and their parents a lot of chances and little accountability until 3 or 4 years go by and they are out of the school. Problem not solved. We’ve already had many Columbine type incidents. This is supposed to be a learning environment. How can kids learn with such grave distractions?

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[WSratsinacage]

I think standing up for ones self is a great way to approach it. Also, raising your kids with self esteem helps. Both may be easier said than done. I will have kids in WSHS in a few years and am very curious about the environment there. I grew up when police were not in schools but it seems to be the norm these days and just wonder if this is the right place for my kids to be or if we need to move/opt for another high school.

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[JoB]

WSratsinacage…

bullying is everywhere… even in the most prestigious schools.

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[WSratsinacage]

True JoB. Very true.

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[JoB]

i think it is time parents, grandparents and great-grandparents regained their momentum against bullying in our schools… maybe by the time your kids attend, we will have succeeded.

When the election is over, if you are interested in working towards this goal.. i will be glad to do the research to find us a group to back.. and if not to start one.

This is a worthy goal and one that will ultimately do more to create change than any other i can think of.

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[Caduceus]

On the contrary, bullies love the attention.

People who bully do it to project “greatness” in the eyes of their peers.

Very few bullies are just so mentally incapacitated that they enjoy hurting people for personal pleasure.

Fights have few people yelling “STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING, THAT IS WRONG” Instead they have people yelling

“PUNCH HIM IN THE MOUTH” “HE’S A P***Y HE’S NOT EVEN FIGHTING BACK” etcetc

It’s worse when girls fight…

“TEAR HER SHIRT OFF, LET’S SEE SOME TITS” etc

Rats- In all actuality bullying is really a petty problem. In the most extreme cases you have mentally unstable people who end up doing things like Virgina Tech and Columbine. Where if people would have intervened forcefully against the bullies there is likely chance these incidents and related incidents would never have occurred. But 99% of the time bullying consists of;

Belittling and minor fights.

Belittling is easily brushed off, since generally people who belittle others are much less than extraordinary. Simple self-esteem solves this issue easily. Someone calls you a F****t? Who cares?

Fighting in schools is laughable, most of the people who get into a fight are more concerned on not getting hurt than actually causing the other person substantial amounts of harm. I’ve been in my share of fights, enough to have re-shaped my nose and my knuckles and I can tell you being punched anywhere on the face save for an uppercut to the nose hurts for two minutes tops. The only bad part about being punched is after word you look silly, and having swollen lips just feels awkward and silly.

Pursuing petty things like this legally is just a waste of everyone’s time.

Some kid is pushing you and taking your money? Punch him in the mouth, and then punch him again in the temple. I bet you he won’t do it again.

The concept of using force to solve a problem is very taboo now-a-days. But trying to fight force with peace hardly ever works. Especially when the people using force don’t really care.

I guess to sum it up.

Bullies take pride in projecting dominance over other people, bullies associate with people who propel their mindset. Bullies are all about their persona, and their pride. You just take that from them and problem solved. The fact that they’ll make a conscious effort to bully someone proves how simpleminded they actually are, so you don’t need a complex let alone LEGAL problem to solve it.

Simply beat the crap out of said bully and he will be ashamed and leave you alone.

Violence isn’t the best solution for everything, although it’s a possible one for most. But in cases where you’re dealing with simple minded fools force generally works best.

People often forget force made this country independent (for better or worse, however you see our country today) and shun force and violence as barbaric and taboo.

These are generally the same people that will watch a fight on the street, watch someone get the life beat out of them and just yell at the guy doing the beating, like that’s going to do anything at all.

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[WSratsinacage]

Thanks JoB.

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[WSratsinacage]

I may be sounding hypocritical but I love this comment “Some kid is pushing you and taking your money? Punch him in the mouth, and then punch him again in the temple. I bet you he won’t do it again.” LOL

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[WSMom]

Caduceus: My husband gave the pretty close to the very same advice to my son when he was being bullyed. When it came push to shove, all it took was a shove (mind you, he shoved him on an empty stairwell, luckily the kid had good balance) and my son saying “LEAVE ME ALONE!!” The bully looked absolutely shocked that anyone would stand up to his behavior and never bothered him again. As a mom, I honestly would never have come up with “fighting” as an acceptable recourse, but I couldn’t argue with results.

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[Caduceus]

:]

I wish there was less violence in the world, but often times it can be for the best or it just can’t be avoided at all.

I’m glad your son was able to solve his problem! Kudos.

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[GenHillOne]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First off, no tolerance means no tolerance. If we want schools to enforce that, and I think we do, then hitting (shoving, whatever) isn’t going to end well. And let’s forget that what escalates might only be much worse than verbal.

I’ve been avoiding this discussion because I don’t have time to devote this afternoon, but it is not so black and white. There is not one right answer and the variables are many:

– elementary, middle, or high school?

– involved parents, uninvolved parents, or “snowed” parents?

– verbal, physical, or cyber?

– individual or group?

– on campus, off campus, yellow bus, Metro bus, or public sidewalk?

– additional offenses like theft, weapons, or gang affiliation?

Report, report, report. Anti-bullying is a documented policy for Seattle Schools so point to the book if you need to. Ask the administrator what the next steps will be, how they will work to avoid retaliation (anonymity, etc.), and let them know you’re not going away. If you aren’t satisfied, move up the chain of command.

I feel like I’m dropping this and running, but I’d love to hear from our resident teachers here.

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[WSB]

It’s such a lovely theory to say “well, just teach your kids to fight back.”

Gee, so we shouldn’t crack down on adult criminals because all we really need is for the victims to fight back?

Great in theory, generally doesn’t work in practice. The bullied child/ren already have had their self-esteem ground into the dirt. And sometimes their physical selves as well. Never mind the issue of whether two wrongs (somebody hits you so you hit them) make a right, or not. I got the same advice from my family when I was a bullied child. All I remember is the hurt and the pain and the fear, in the moment, and no rational “gee, slug that b**ch and maybe she’ll back off” was going to cut through all that.

As for Seattle Public Schools’ anti-bullying policy … I’m not going into specifics but in one particular school (not in West Seattle) it didn’t work. To save our child’s life — and I am not exaggerating – we finally just left the school, since it was clear he was in grave danger there, and that nothing was going to be done to protect him, AND that I couldn’t trust any more that we weren’t going to get a phone call that he was in the hospital with brain damage because some junior a**hole had escalated from kicking and throwing things, to slamming his head into a wall. I’ve never been one to give up or back off. But in this case – with my child’s life at stake – that had to take precedence.

However, as I said, I’m not laying this all at the feet of the schools. Teach your children well. Teach them to help and to reach out. Not just to look the other way, which is what many of them do even if they are not the bullies. And that’s all I really wanted to say here when the subject came up.

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[Caduceus]

Lowman there is an obvious gap between adolescents and adults hurting each other. Those are literally two separate worlds.

And as you pointed out with your example some people take it too far. So you have to stop it before it can get to that point.

And I can not recall one incident in any school I’ve been to where the school has intervened to prevent a fight or properly punish a student. Oh wow, you suspended that kid who gets D’s and E’s, the kid who puts no effort toward school to begin with. You just put him on a short vacation, good job. There was one incident where a gym teacher watched a fight and then tackled a kid who tried to join in.

You can disagree if you’d like, but it’s similar to saying nothing good comes from being taxed. Being taxed isn’t fun but that money is put to good use.

If someone is putting their hands on you, there’s a chance you won’t have the opportunity to tell someone or reach out for help. When it comes to someone trying to hurt you in anyway things can easily escalate and it’s up to you as an individual to stop it. You can’t always wait out a fight. I had a friend just sit in the fetal position and wait it out, as the kid who was beating him up kicked him in the back of the head/neck and knocked him into a brief coma like state. That could have been avoided entirely had he stood up for himself. Luckily no major harm was done, granted we don’t know if there are any long term effects, yet.

Fighting back works, it’s tried and proven. Like all things in life it isn’t perfect, and it isn’t morally ideal. But it’s better than just being taken advantage of or being seriously injured or accidentally killed.

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[JoB]

A loud whistle or siren or scream generally gets adult attention.. which bullies don’t want.

a fight gets kid’s attention and someone always gets hurt.

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[Gina]

Long term effects from being bullied, and no school intervention?

To this day I will not vote yes on any Seattle Public School issue on the ballot. The institution never did anything for me, so why should I do anything for them.

All the one on one situations are interesting. Never had a problem with one on one. I was always attacked by groups of girls/boys. Only one on one bullying I ever encountered was from teachers.

And what do people suggest for group attacks on a single person? Your word against theirs? I lost two feet of hair as a result of group bullying during a class with a teacher present. Chewed gum wads placed in my hair and tied in knots. Teacher couldn’t give a flying f. I must of deserved it somehow, you know.

If your home is egged, bb gunned, obscene phone called (back before caller id) by mysterious groups of people in the night, where would you even begin to work on peer intervention/understanding?

Hard to fight against the invisible enemy, or the group against a lone person.

One does not want to play being a victim, “Oh, poor me!” The people that did that had to be sent to live with relatives on the other side of the mountains or in other states.

I certainly hope the teachers of today know some other method other than “let them work it out with each other.”

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[Caduceus]

Thank you for posting Gina.

These are the kinds of things I’m talking about.

Chances are the people that do things like this know it’s wrong and just don’t care. People like these resent their teachers, and more likely their parents or any other authority figure. The people that think “Reading is gay” or “F**k the cops!” etc

You aren’t going to successfully explain to them that it’s wrong and not okay because they aren’t going to receive any valid consequences from any authority figures. Which is why violence works (unfortunately)

I think it was two years ago, we had a kid egging houses and such on Halloween, and my mother got a call from her friend who lives a few blocks away and his car got egged and I was looking out the window waiting for people to come get candy. And I see this kid running down the street throwing eggs at windows and cars. I ran out chased him down and it turned out to be someone who went to West Seattle High School with me and lived in my area. I “showed” him it’s wrong to destroy people’s property. Specifically very, very expensive property. He graduated with Honors this last Spring, quite the leap from skipping the first half of every day to smoke weed in Hiawatha two years ago. Whether or not that Halloween had any direct effect on his dramatic turn in behavior, I’ll bet anything he hasn’t egged anything since, and that he has a realistic concept of right and wrong.

I actually know his behavior changed dramatically for a fact after that, my mother took care of his grandmother, and spoke to his father frequently.

There are just certain types of people who only listen to a fist.

When you begin talking about groups, that is generally more complicated and as I believe JoB brought up has a lot of variables. Only MUCH more so than with an individual. Your best option there is to run, unless you know how to fight extensively.

And I would like everyone to remember this is a discussion about bullying in schools, and that fighting a stranger as an adult on the street somewhere random is VERY unwise. The chances of an adolescent having a knife or gun or being high on drugs like ketamine, PCP or other dissociative drugs is highly unlikely.

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[idler]

Bullying is often covert, under the radar and hard to prove. Getting help from grown ups often complicates the situation. Almost every single person has an experience with being bullied in school…even bullies themselves. I want to believe that it is important not to let other people stop you from doing what you know is right! And that you shouldn’t let the fear of the consequence (of telling) keep you from reporting a bully. But the reality is- it’s just not that simple. It is unfortunate and so sad and agreeably dangerous is some cases. But it just is not going to be solved that easily. As a family we have embraced all of your suggestions(Lowman) in your first post throughout the years. But, honestly, our experience tells us it is just not that simple to solve this. I know that bullying can be very serious and I would never suggest that the victim doesn’t deserve an advocate, particularly their parents. However, rescue parenting sends a message of it own. The onus is on the parents of both the bully and the victim. Know your kids keep informed. Sometimes just coming home to where they know they are happy and safe is the difference a child needs and will give them the confidence to stand up and react appropriately.

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[Author]

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