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December 22, 2012 at 8:21 pm #780627
dobroParticipantDecember 22, 2012 at 8:22 pm #780628
dobroParticipant“Even cops will tell you this.”
No law enforcement agency advocates this armed guard idea either. These agencies generally favor more gun regulation over gun proliferation.
December 22, 2012 at 8:54 pm #780629
SmittyParticipantDecember 22, 2012 at 9:00 pm #780630
SmittyParticipantconvinces me that having a cop or a beefy security guy on school grounds would be a good thing. It does not convince me that the only thing that will stop a school attack is a gun.”
Spot on.
For some reason people think that if you are FOR security guards in schools you must be against every other solution, including banning assault rifles and controlling access to all guns. People hate the NRA so much that it blinds them to actual facts, like the article above, that prove it can help.
December 22, 2012 at 9:04 pm #780631
JanSParticipantSmitty…there are already security guards in a lot of schools….has that stopped perps from doing their thing? Not that I can see. Every time someone brings up the security guards in the places where violence has happened, you come up with some sort of excuse. ..”It stopped more violence”, etc. Tell that the the families left behind in Columbine. Tell that to the families in Newtown. And see what they tell you…bet they don’t agree.
OK.. I’m off this subject…it won’t change any minds.
Have a great holiday, everyone.
December 22, 2012 at 9:23 pm #780632
JanSParticipantOK, I lied..this will be my last post on this subject (hey, I’m not perfect – lol):
The Huffington Post front page this morning:the list of shootings since the tragedy at Sandy Hook:
TO LIVE AND DIE IN AMERICA
3 Shot And Killed In Mich… 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies… Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself… Man Shoots, Kills Own Son… Cops Shoot Teen Dead… Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot… 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings… 2 Murdered In Philly… 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead… Shooter Killed… 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide… Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot… Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend… Man Shot To Death… Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot… Man Shot Dead In Street… Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death… Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting… Man Shoots, Kills Intruder… 1 Killed In Coney Island… Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds… Cops Investigate Gun Death… Shooting Victim’s Body Found On Bike Trail… Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead… Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest… Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup… Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death… Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead… Man Fatally Shot Near Home… Parolee Dies In Shooting… 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting… Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex… Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander… Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide… Woman Shot Dead By Intruder… 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack… Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot… Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend… 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead… 2 Die In Attempted Robbery… Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley… Man Shot To Death In Bodega… 2 Shot Dead In Burned House… Man Shot During Break-In… Man Fatally Shot… 20-Year-Old Gunned Down… Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit… 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting… Cops ID Shooting Victim… 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead… Shot Man’s Body Found In Vacant House…. Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home… Shooting Victim Was ‘Trying To Turn Life Around’… Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street…. Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies… 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting… Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife… Man Shot Dead Outside Home… 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings… Cops Investigate Shooting Death… Man Shot Dead In Ohio… Teen Shot To Death… Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times… Man Charged Over Son’s Shooting Death… Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead… 1 Dies In Shooting… Man Charged Over Gun Killing… 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation… Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting… Motel Owner Shot And Killed… Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead… Suspect Arrested Over Deputy’s Shooting Death… Police Probe Fatal Shooting… Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths… Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber… Man Killed In Home Invasion…. Nightclub Shooting Kills 1… Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting… Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife… Body Found In Vacant House… Teen Fatally Shot…
food for thought, indeed…
December 23, 2012 at 12:41 am #780633
dobroParticipant“For some reason people think that if you are FOR security guards in schools you must be against every other solution…”
Not true. You have muddied the waters by accusing people of being against this “just because the NRA said it”. I could give a sh*t about the NRA. I’d rather talk about ideas that might help that could actually be implemented. That list I put up earlier are things that can be accomplished by legislation. If you really want the armed guard in every school solution to be considered, you need to consider how to make it happen. All those things like cost, number of guards required, training, etc. If you don’t want to talk about that (as evidenced by several posts) then you’re not making a serious suggestion, you’re just trying to derail the conversation, kinda like what the NRA wants to do.
December 23, 2012 at 12:57 am #780634
dobroParticipantDianne Feinstein…
“The NRA’s blanket call to arm our schools is really nothing more than a distraction. It’s a delay tactic,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) said at a press conference Friday. “It’s a distraction from the availability of military style assault weapons…It is a distraction from the prevalence of large ammunition feeding devices that allow shooters to expel 20, 30, 60, 100 and even more bullets. And it’s a distraction from how easy it is to purchase weapons at gun shows, with no background checks at all.”
December 23, 2012 at 1:15 am #780635
dobroParticipantLarry Alan Burns, federal judge who sentenced the Gabby Giffords shooter, conservative and Bush 43 appointee in an oped in the LA Times…
“If we can’t find a way to draw sensible lines with guns that balance individual rights and the public interest, we may as well call the American experiment in democracy a failure.
There is just no reason civilians need to own assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Gun enthusiasts can still have their venison chili, shoot for sport and competition, and make a home invader flee for his life without pretending they are a part of the SEAL team that took out Osama bin Laden.
It speaks horribly of the public discourse in this country that talking about gun reform in the wake of a mass shooting is regarded as inappropriate or as politicizing the tragedy. But such a conversation is political only to those who are ideologically predisposed to see regulation of any kind as the creep of tyranny. And it is inappropriate only to those delusional enough to believe it would disrespect the victims of gun violence to do anything other than sit around and mourn their passing. Mourning is important, but so is decisive action.”
December 23, 2012 at 8:36 am #780636
WorldCitizenParticipantDecember 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm #780637
redblackParticipantsmitty: let me pile on! no, i don’t think adding armed guards would make kids safer. mainly because of logistics. seems like whack-a-mole to me.
regarding columbine and the guard drawing fire: that was in no way successful, nor should it be celebrated. 12 people are still dead, and even one is too many.
but dobro hinted at the other thing that was bothering me while reading this:
so we can’t pay teachers a living salary, good benefits, and retirement packages without a huge fight. but now you admit wanting to pay more taxes to defend schools with guns. so if it’s something you want, it’s okay to pay more taxes. if it’s something we want, we have to fight tooth and nail.
kind of funny coming from people who find almost all taxation to be onerous.
i would summarize the liberal position like this: if we put more money into school employees, it should be for teaching, not for defense.
however, i would gladly pay more taxes for upgraded warning systems and lock-downs – think of banks’ panic buttons – in schools and other public buildings. we have the technology to be able to isolate and respond to wackos more quickly than we are.
December 23, 2012 at 4:43 pm #780638
JoBParticipantSmitty smitty smitty..
don’t put words in my mouth that you are pretty sure i didn’t intend.
short easy answer.. no armed guards in schools will not make children safer. More than that, it won’t make children feel safer either.
i think i pointed that out already.
and then there is the question of cost.
cities, counties and states are cutting back on funding for officers… not for guns or equipment.. but for officers.
where would the money come from for all of these guards?
Would it come from an already strapped law enforcement budget?
Would it come from an already deficient school budget?
and last.. would we hire them from the same pool as the security guards at our nation’s airports?
i don’t know about you.. but all they make me feel is irritated.
I can’t imagine that they make anyone feel one bit safer.
nobody brings this up,
but the same pool of employees was working the security in our airports before 911.
they were less abusive.. but they were there.
isn’t it time we started looking a the preponderance of violence in our society and did something substantive about it instead of just hiding the wound with another bit of political theatre?
December 23, 2012 at 4:51 pm #780639
JoBParticipantredblack said..
“however, i would gladly pay more taxes for upgraded warning systems and lock-downs – think of banks’ panic buttons – in schools and other public buildings. we have the technology to be able to isolate and respond to wackos more quickly than we are.”
and i agree.
we have the technology .. we have had it for a very long time.
a panic button hit by the first teacher to encounter the shooter could have locked down every classroom and kids could have been moved out of sight and range of a shooter…
they can even be motion activated to trigger at the sudden motion a bullet would create…
yup.. you’d have a few lockdowns because a teacher fell.. but it would still be a much better option that putting a lone armed guard in a school with more than one entrance…
December 23, 2012 at 5:45 pm #780640
2 Much WhineParticipantJust last week I was at an airport and I saw a sign that said that no guns were allowed on the airplane and had a picture of a gun. Then it said that no rocket launchers were allowed on the plane and had a picture of a rocket launcher. I didn’t see any guns OR rocket launchers anywhere. I’d prefer to have more signs than weapons – that appears to work just fine.
December 24, 2012 at 6:07 am #780641
dobroParticipantThis is from a Supreme Court opinion on the 2nd amendment…
“…For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.
…Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
You see, the 2nd amendment may give you the individual right to possess a gun but it doesn’t grant any rights to gun sellers. And that’s where regulation should be aimed. Types of weapons,ammo,etc, and methods of sale should be heavily regulated.
December 24, 2012 at 11:48 pm #780642
DBPMemberTotal agreement with dobro here. News headlines aside, most of the evil done with guns can be traced to a transaction wherein one person sold or gave a gun (legally) to someone who shouldn’t have had one.
If we can disrupt things at the point of that transaction, it will be a huge step forward.
December 25, 2012 at 10:16 am #780643
EdSaneParticipant“Would putting trained armed security guards in schools make them safer? Yes or no?”
…Yes. Security Officers (armed or unarmed) can (and do) provide greater services then just deterrence. Many are quite capable of responding to medical emergencies (response times in seconds vs minutes). Middle and High Schools already have security (in some form). Upgrading this to an armed security officer would be an additional cost, but not impossible. Providing that level of security to an elementary school. Of which are probably the least likely to be attacked is a little too reactionary for my taste. I would also suggest that private security financially is probably a better choice then an actual police officer.
December 25, 2012 at 4:55 pm #780644
SmittyParticipantEd,
Of course it would make them safer. But, on this board that is not the issue. The issue is cost, and the fact that the NRA is the one that proposed it. Therefore, even though it might fit the liberal mantra “if it saves just one life…..isn’t it worth it?”, does not matter.
So, no. An armed guard in a bank, airplane or school will NOT make anyone safer.
Get it? (me either)
December 25, 2012 at 5:26 pm #780645
WesCAddleMemberIf those firefighters were only packing they would be alive right now?
Prolly better put armed security guards on every fire engine. Only possible solution.
December 25, 2012 at 7:59 pm #780646
dobroParticipant“Of course it would make them safer. But, on this board that is not the issue.”
No, the issue really is how to address a larger problem. The way you phrase it is just a way to derail the conversation and take shots at liberals. Sad, really. But that’s all I have to say about it today.
Have a Merry and a Happy.
December 26, 2012 at 12:23 am #780647
JoBParticipantDecember 26, 2012 at 4:43 am #780648
SmittyParticipant“Smitty..
“Of course it would make them safer.”
well.. no, i don’t think so.”
Please explain how an armed guard would make kids less safe. Not how money could be better well spent. Not how the NRA is deflecting. How can having an armed guard on premis not make things safer? Thieves would steal their gun and do more damage? The guards might turn into the gunman? How EXACTLY would an armed guard not make things safer? Explain your logic, please! Merry Christmas!
December 26, 2012 at 6:50 am #780649
EdSaneParticipant…Armed Guards would make schools a safer place. Not just from physical threats. But even mundane fire drills or medical emergencies, etc. Having personally worked in corporate security for over 5 years I am quite familiar with the benefits of having trained security (armed or unarmed). Especially in times of emergencies. Most schools already employ security in some fashion and have extensive planning in regard to emergency responses. However, I am willing to conceed that no one solution will stop the problem of violence. That does not mean we should not actively consider all possible avenues…As I see it now, real gun reform is unlikely. The republicans in the house of representatives are unlikely to capitulate on these issues. Currently the WA State Constitution has very broad support for a right to bear arms (more so then the Federal). Anything the state legislature passes will be fought in court (and likely found to be in violation of our state constitution). Mayor Mcginn has already had experience in this matter. Anyway, I guess my point is, that in considering current American culture. I feel like we need to look at solutions that are actually passable and will indeed save lives.
December 26, 2012 at 7:08 am #780650
JanSParticipantJust reading again the story of the man who killed 2 firemen, and injured two others in a sniper attack near Rochester, NY the other day. His weapon? a Bushmaster .223, the same weapon used in Sandy Hook. So, let’s talk specifics. Perhaps with a show of hands. How many people think that something needs to change regarding how easy it is for a felon to get their hands on this weapon? How many feel that it’s not a weapon that should be readily available to the general public? Maybe put an enormous tax on it. Make the waiting period at least a month, with a damned invasive background check. Do I have the answers? Nope, I don’t. But this is the same weapon used by the infamous DC sniper…and I shake my head. Senseless, senseless, senseless. Do we now arm our firefighters?? When does it stop? Do we just keep arming more and more every time there’s a shooting until there is more of a glut of weapons out there? How about we establish a police state, with National Guard, Army, Marine personnel stationed on our street corners, at grocery stores, gas stations, at our malls, guarding the doors with weapons drawn? Would that work? Where do we draw the line?
This more guns thing makes me very, very sad…
December 26, 2012 at 12:32 pm #780651
JoBParticipantSomething is very wrong when we have to contemplate sending armed officer along with firefighters so they can safely fight fires..
or armed guards in schools so kids can safely learn.
escalating shows of force only illustrate how out of ocntrol our gun culture is..
since when does your right to bear arms trump public safety?
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