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December 21, 2012 at 10:39 pm #605988
JanSParticipantso, how does everyone feel about the statement by the NRA earlier today that we should have armed police in all schools in the US? I took not that the person making the statement this morning was a LOBBYIST. That says volumes to me…. Basically , he said the way to fight bad guys with guns is to give guns to the good guys. While we’re at it, how do you feel abut teachers carrying on their persons during the school day?
December 21, 2012 at 10:45 pm #780578
SmittyParticipantArming teachers? Never.
Arming trained guards? Absolutely.
Think 9-11. We don’t arm the pilots, we arm the flight marshalls.
Question(s):
1) What’s the difference between arming a air marshall and arming a trained security guard at a school?
2) Do you think there is a “chance” that 26 would not have died last week had a trained, armed guard been on duty?
3) Had the gunman known that there was a trained, armed guard on duty would he have even tried to enter in the first place?
How people can laugh at an idea to protect children is beyond me (not you Jan, but other places on the interwebs).
December 21, 2012 at 11:08 pm #780579
dobroParticipantAs I said in another thread, this idea is insane. Let’s take a look at your questions.
1) before we even talk about outfitting schools with “trained” armed guards I’d like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America)and where you think that money will come from. Remember, this includes salary, benefits, training, arms and ammo, multiple guards for larger sites, etc.
2)I’m not going to bother listing the mass shootings that had armed guards on the premises that failed to stop the violence (use your google machine) but one that pops out is Columbine. Another instance of armed guards on the scene- The Empire State building shootings in which most of the gun injuries on bystanders were inflicted by the police-probably the most highly “trained” armed guards you could find.
3) The gunman was nuts.He didn’t care about any armed guards. He killed himself. Most of these guys do. Your question is ridiculous.
Nobody’s laughing at this idea.It’s not a serious suggestion. It’s a fantasy of gun sales lobbyists like LaPierre and people that think life is like a comic book or a movie where the good guys always shoot straight and the bad guys’ gun jams.
Plus, this idea comes from the same nuts that think Obama is coming to take their guns and hate “big government” while their proposal is the most radical big gov’t police state idea to ever come down the pike. C’mon, man, think it thru.
December 21, 2012 at 11:16 pm #780580
JoBParticipantSmitty..
so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?
as one of the generation of duck and cover kids
i can tell you that continually reinforcing fear in children isn’t good for their mental health…
December 22, 2012 at 12:10 am #780581
SmittyParticipant“so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?”
No. But, I don’t mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?
“I’d like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America”
Sounds like a stimulus package to me. I thought liberals loved stimulus?
“I’m not going to bother listing the mass shootings that had armed guards on the premises that failed to stop the violence”
I bet there are more that the google machine could list that DIDN’T have armed guards.
“The gunman was nuts.He didn’t care about any armed guards. He killed himself. Most of these guys do. Your question is ridiculous.”
1<26
Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?
December 22, 2012 at 12:15 am #780582
realvalueremodelerParticipantHow about something truly revolutionary: arming the students and teachers with a peace generating technology, time tested and scientifically verified?
Watch how its working in San Francisco schools:
December 22, 2012 at 12:52 am #780583
dobroParticipant“I’d like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America”
Sounds like a stimulus package to me. I thought liberals loved stimulus?…
…Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?
So that’s your idea of answering a question directly? Did you address the question (how much will it cost?) at all? No, you made a snarky comment and jab at “liberals”. And then criticize people for not answering your questions. No wonder its tough to have an intelligent conversation around here these days.
December 22, 2012 at 12:58 am #780584
SmittyParticipantYou first.
December 22, 2012 at 1:00 am #780585
dobroParticipant“so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?”
“No. But, I don’t mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?”
These two things (armed guards on planes, armed guards in public schools) have nothing to do with each other, are non-sequiters, and are only introduced to cloud the argument, not to clear anything up.
your questions 2 & 3- according to the evidence we have, presence of armed guards at schools have usually not stopped lethal violence and, according to evidence we have, the chance of the insane shooter altering his behavior because of the presence of armed guards is highly unlikely since this guy, like many others of his ilk, took his own life. He was not afraid of being shot. Do you have any evidence to present to dispute those conclusions? Got anything besides snark and obfuscation?
December 22, 2012 at 1:09 am #780586
JanSParticipantone word…Lakewood…4 highly trained armed police person, one perpetrator…4 dead highly trained armed police, one live perpetrator (that day).
The NRA lobbyists didn’t say security guards…he was talking about armed police. Now, consider this…there are already armed police, state patrol in various cities in WA…Ellensburg, Renton, and a few others. Mostly the districts that do this say it’s difficult to find the money in the budget to support them, and they will be dropped…
Smitty, we’re talking kids in a school here, with someone who is armed, in uniform. On a plane? No uniform, anonymous., mostly adults flying. Apple, oranges.
Do I have the answers? No… but fighting the problem with yet more guns just doesn’t seem right to me…it’s the ultimate police state..be careful what you wish for.
December 22, 2012 at 1:30 am #780587
SmittyParticipantArmed air marshalls and armed guards in school are EXACTLY the same thing. Unless and until we can magically make all guns disappear, the best way to fight fire, is with……….fire.
Not arming teachers. Not arming students. Arming a trained security guard. Would that make things less safe? How so? Please explain.
December 22, 2012 at 1:48 am #780588
miwsParticipantSo, the first person the unstable person, hell-bent on killing kids and adults will take out, is the security guard…
Mike
December 22, 2012 at 2:03 am #780589
anonymeParticipantMike hit the nail on the head. These types of killings are very well planned. Not only would it not be that difficult to take out one cop or security guard, but that would add one more gun to their arsenal. Arming teachers is even more ludicrous, for the same reason. The idea that gun violence can be avoided with more guns is absolutely ludicrous.
December 22, 2012 at 2:22 am #780590
dobroParticipant“Arming a trained security guard. Would that make things less safe?”
You still can’t address what it would take to make this fantasy/comic book idea actually happen. How much will it cost? You say “a” trained security guard. How many guards per school? There are 98,000 schools in America. 98,000. Some of these schools have 1, 2, or 3000 students.
If you can’t describe some way in which this “security guard (s) in every school” can realistically be implemented you’re just blowing smoke.
“Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?”
Your turn.
December 22, 2012 at 2:24 am #780591
WorldCitizenParticipantI just don’t understand why we aren’t teaching gun safety in schools. All kids should be issued a .22 caliber rifle starting in 5th grade. By senior year, there should be concealed weapons permits issued with diplomas. Nothing says, “Good job, son. We love you!” like a AR 15 for graduation. Now THAT’S stimulus.
Just think, there would be dozens of weapons of all types in schools around America with plenty of ammo to take out a small contingent of psycho-killers.
Problem solved. You’re welcome.
December 22, 2012 at 2:27 am #780592
WorldCitizenParticipantPsycho Killer
Qu’est-ce que c’est
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away
Psycho Killer
Qu’est-ce que c’est
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away
December 22, 2012 at 2:39 am #780593
dobroParticipantColumbine had guards. Virginia Tech had its own police force. Ft Hood was a military base filled with gun toting soldiers.
December 22, 2012 at 2:53 am #780594
hooper1961Memberi heard this insane idea would cost $5,000,000,000.
does a hunter need a Uzi sub-machine gun to hunt Bambi? i think not.
December 22, 2012 at 3:04 am #780595
rwParticipantWe can’t even afford enough teachers and librarians, and some people propose adding a security guard in every school? That’s patently insane and unworkable.
The problem isn’t just protecting children in schools. It’s protecting them (and everyone else) in public and at home. Yes, tighter guns and fewer options for gun owners are not the sole solutions. We need to address mental health, both for the mentally unstable and for the rest of us, which we aren’t doing, at least very well. But tighter gun restrictions and controls have to be a part of the solution.
For your reading pleasure. I promise you’ll want a stiff drink after reading this depressing report:
Here are some highlights:
* More children and teens died from gunfire in 2008 and 2009 — 5,750 — than the number of U.S. military personnel killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan.
*The total number of preschool-age children killed by guns in the years studied — 173 —was nearly double the number of law-enforcement officers — 89 — killed in the line of duty.
*African-American children and teens represented 45 percent of all guns deaths in their age group in 2008 and 2009, but only 15 percent of the total U.S. population of children.
*The top cause of death for black teens ages 15 to 19 was gun homicide, while for white teens it was motor vehicle accidents followed by gun homicides.
And if the other stats aren’t bad enough, consider this one:
*Among 23 high-income countries in the world scholars have studied, the United States is home to 80 percent of all gun deaths, and 87 percent of all gun deaths of children younger than 15.
Still think we shouldn’t cut down on the number of guns in US society?
December 22, 2012 at 4:10 am #780596
realvalueremodelerParticipantI’m sorry, but would somebody take 5 minutes to view the video I posted in thread 6. Y’all seem to be stuck on accepting that we have to settle for managing the pervasive darkness in the world. How about considering evidence that a light source is available and it is as effective as turning on a light switch. Like we hear from the school superintendent in the video, “the data don’t lie”.
Turn on just a couple of lights and watch the cockroaches (violence, disease, suffering) scatter.
December 22, 2012 at 6:42 am #780597
dobroParticipantI watched your video. It’s a nice infomercial for Transcendental Meditation™ (don’t forget the ™) but it has little to do with this discussion of mass murder,proliferation of military style weapons, and the NRAs sick and twisted viewpoint of same.
One of the lights that needs to come on is the one shining on a sane and rational national firearms policy. That’s what the subject is.
December 22, 2012 at 2:47 pm #780598
waynsterParticipantIf we go along with what the NRA and the hard core gun nuts are saying we might as well arm the pre-schoolers with AK’s and AR’s that way they can learn to become snipers and school swat team members. Who would think a cute 4 to 5 year old would be packing……lets get real assault weapons are designed to do one thing that’s to kill.. not deer or elk just people the military didn’t have theses weapons designed for them to hunt animals now did they…….. …
December 22, 2012 at 2:55 pm #780599
SmittyParticipantJust think, there would be dozens of weapons of all types in schools around America with plenty of ammo to take out a small contingent of psycho-killers.”
Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Columbine had guards. Virginia Tech had its own police force. Ft Hood was a military base filled with gun toting soldiers.”
The guard at Columbine exchanged gunfire with one of the gunman and started the evacuation. He got the gunman to fire at him rather than more kids. Now, he missed him when he shot at him, but drew fire away and sounded the evacuation. Sounds pretty darn good to me.
Th Ft Hood shooter was *shot* and paralyzed.
Virginia Tech is a HUGE campus unlike a grade, middle or high school. Tough to defend.
“does a hunter need a Uzi sub-machine gun to hunt Bambi? i think not.”
No. But banning them today will not make them magically disappear from the streets will it?
December 22, 2012 at 3:15 pm #780600
JoBParticipantsmitty
“”so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?”
No. But, I don’t mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?”
i hate to burst your bubble.. but most of the time that armed guard you think is flying on the plane with you doesn’t exist.
yup… it’s all random
as hubby learned when he took everything off that could trigger the alarm at security check and sailed through the monitors only to be pulled aside and wait while his belongings were rifled and they wanded and patted down every part of his body because he was lucky enough to pull the random check card.
all in the name of making America safer.
Columbine had an armed guard.
Virgina tech had it’s own police force.
providing the illusion of security doesn’t prevent terrorism.
December 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm #780601
waynsterParticipantNo smitty it wouldn’t…It would however prevent future killings and heavily regulating future sales from gun shows and privet unregulated sells on those who own them now would slow down the slaughter of the innocent and may end it in years to come…….
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